Participation trophies make kids soft

I get the perceived downside for the multiple brackets...but what is really good about 16 teams split to four brackets is you limit Sunday games to two max.  Keeps the pitching abuse down.  That seems to be a major theme on many threads.  It's about the reps anyway, right IO?

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with giving out a small token as a memento of having taken part in a program, something to put on a kids shelf as a reminder of the experience, I wouldn't even call it a "trophy" really (and in my son's baseball leagues they weren't really trophies as much as little statues, or one year I think a plaque) - it's something that happens at all level of sport up to and including World Championships and the Olympics (yes, there's a participation medallion you get when you compete in the Olympic Games).

 

The thing is that at the right age groups, it's time to also recognize winning and losing, too. Then you get a better trophy or medal (but one thing I have noticed in sport - in general, the importance of the competition is usually inversely proportional to the size of the award...)

Swampboy - great post!

 

My daughter has experienced something similar in softball and swimming.  She is no where near athletic as her brother and two older sisters.

 

She decided to try out for LL a few years back.  In preparation for evaluations we all tried working with her on batting, throwing, etc. Also had her attend some clinics put on by the local LL.

 

Come evals, I thought she did okay, but I later learned from the coach that they really wringed their hands over her.  They almost did not let her join the league - yes, she was that bad.

 

Anyway - she is assigned to a team and as the season progresses she's getting better, but still struggles - striking out a lot and missing fly balls in the outfield.  Keeps fouling off pitches, but has not put one into play.  Finally the last game of the season comes about.  I believe it was her 2nd at bat when she finally hits a weak blooper that no one can get to!  By watching her Mom and I, you'd thought she just hit a walk off hit that won the CWS!  She did get an award that year for "Most Improved Player".   She worked hard all year despite knowing she'd never be as good as the top notch girls in the league.

 

Same for swimming.  She competed in a one or two events, but was usually the last one in her heat and had the slowest times in her age group for those events.  Off we go to the district match - a day long event, but she's only in one event.

 

After waiting hours, she finally gets to compete.  As her heat is ending, she is the only one still swimming and an amazing thing starts to happen.  Everyone in the area is cheering her on.  Not just her teammates, but ALL the teams in the pool area.  When she finally finishes, there is thunderous applause.  You see, it's not all about "winning", but IS about putting forth your best effort and competing.

 

She would later get an award for "Most Improved" from the team as her times progressively got better over the summer.

 

For some - participation is a BIG event.

 

 

I had a little bit of a problem with my younger son and wrestling.  He was competitive, but not as competitive as his older baseball brother.  He did wrestle all the way thru his senior year of HS.  His problem was, once he lost a match in a tournament, he basically gave up.  He didn't just lay down and let himself get beat, but he didn't really care about working thru the losers bracket for 3rd place.

 

He was kind of like Ricky Bobby - If you ain't first, you're last...

Is there a big difference between participation trophies for young kids and the myriad of world series, elite, and championship baseball tournaments sponsored by various entities such as USSSA, PG and Triple Crown?

I have no issue with breaking down a tournament into multiple brackets.  Like you said, it can keep the weekend interesting and allow the kids to play, win and advance.  But don't crown a "champion" in those divisions.  It's like being the tallest midget. 

Yes.  Most of those tournaments are "marketing." 

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

Not in our part of the country.

 

In football, you have to play in a certain number of quarters in varsity matches.

 

In cross country, you have to meet a time standard and be a "scorer" (one of the top five finishers for the school) in a certain number of meets.

 

In wrestling, you you have to earn a certain number of team points (my son's senior year, he wrestled up a weight class for part of the season to allow his backup--a senior who been on the team for four years without earning a letter--a chance to earn one before he graduated).

 

Other sports have similar requirements that go beyond just making the team.

 

Letters represent not just participation but actual varsity accomplishments. 

 

Well, it wasn’t that way when I was in HS either, but for the last 20 years around here, in baseball, if you’re on the V when the letters get handed out, you get one. I didn’t mean to imply every school in the nation did it that way, but it’s sure the norm here.

 

I suppose it’s what “accomplishment” means to those awarding the letters. On our team last season, just staying eligible was an accomplishment. And going to practice every day and getting pummeled 23 games out of 26 while still maintaining team dignity meant one heck of a lot because the program was in total rebuild mode after more than a decade of horrible play. Every one of the kids who got a letter sure deserved it in my mind. I was more proud of those boys than the team 2 years previously that was such a national power. It’s easy to have high standards when you got a great program with a great tradition and great athletes who participate year after year. I suspect your definition of “accomplishment” might get altered when everything is a major challenge. But even if it doesn't that's OK too. Different seat fit different butts

A varsity letter is earned. The player needs to have the ability to make the team. just making the team probably involved years of practice and effort.

My kids letters were stuck on a certificate and framed.

The first year I coached 7/8 rec softball I found out all the coaches were buying their players trophies. One of them bought two foot high trophies for his players. I upset some of the parents of my players. I gave them all something useful, a softball.

Back my day, that was true for the most part.  I played HS football.  Well, I practiced playing HS football I should say.  I was basically 3rd string and probably played less than 30 plays all season in an actual game.  Usually when our team was well ahead (4 TD's or more).

 

Yes, those that played one or more quarters earned their Letter.  However, you would also letter by just being on the team for two seasons.  The 3rd stringers (aka practice squad) felt we "earned" our letters as we helped prepared the 1st/2nd stringers by running the opposing offense and defense against them.  Our "game" was going against the starters and backups during the week.   Just because we didn't play in a game every week didn't mean we didn't earn our letter.  It just took longer.

 

I should mention coach never "cut" anyone.  Tryouts were more like evaluations where the coaches figure out who would play where.  The other sports (baseball, basketball, softball, etc) did have cuts.

There's an intimidation factor when ninety football players come down the runway. It's why many football teams don't have cuts. Others don't have cuts so they have forty players to come down the runway.

If I saw a team with that many kids (90 or whatever) I would think what a great fundraising tool it must be.  

My HS was single A so we were small.  Even so, we had ~45 players.  Some of the schools we played barely had enough to field an offense and a defense.  I recall one team we played had less than 20 players.

We carry about 90 on our HS team. In IL football is a no cut sport. Lots of kids want to play at our school. made the playoffs 14 of the last 15 years. Won 3 championships in that time. Run very deep into the playoffs most other years. Won it two years ago. Ran up to quarter finals last year and have a stronger team this year.

A few years back I was 'racing' in a triathlon, right where I belong, in the middle of the pack, no where near the podium.  Suddenly, where I expect to turn right, one of the race directors yells turn left, and my run is about 3/4 mile shorter than expected.  A runner near the front had disturbed a hornets nest, so they re-routed everyone away from the angry hornets.  I was the first to run the shorter course, so I 'won' my age group and was given a trophy.  About a week later, an additional trophy was mailed to me, they had determined who ran the long course and who ran the short course, called it two events, so now I was the official winner of the short course. 

 

Two trophies for being slow enough to avoid the bees, yet faster than the other slow athletes.  I kept the trophies, but more out of amusement than a real sense of accomplishment.  Most kids are the same way, they know when they earned something.

I attended a very large high school. There were over 4,000 students in three grades. It was fed by five junior highs. A lot of kids wanted to be part of the football tradition. There was a varsity, JV and soph team. Everyone dressed for the varsity game. We came out of the locker room, circled the field and started our warmup exercises in a hundred yard circle with everyone yelling the count. A friend from a rival high school told me it was quite intimidating his first year.

All our major tournaments comprise of the following

 

championship trophy

runnerup trophy

2 third place trophies

MVP trophy

MVPitcher ttrophy individual champonship rings for each player and coach on the championship team

 

I wouldn't call that a bunch of trophies.

 

At our All American banquet there are several awards given out, they include...

 

TrackMan Pitcher of the Year

Baseball America Pitcher of the year

Evoshield Swag Award

Louisville Slugger Award - Top HS hitter

Rawlings Gold Glove Award - Top HS defensive player

Nick Adenhart Award

Baseball Prospectus - Top prospect award

Jackie Robinson Award - Top HS player in the Nation

All players also get a parcipitation award.

Then the game itself will have an MVP Award.

 

To me these are all very deserving awards.

 

In fact, I can't think of any award we give out that isn't extremely difficult to earn.

 

That was in response to an earlier post.

 

Regarding participation awards, I say who cares.  We don't do it, but just can't see how the could possibly have a negative effect on anything or anyone.  What about that young boy that never has a chance to receive an award.  What is wrong with him getting a participation award.  Everyone knows it's not the Heismann or the champonship or MVP trophy.  Is some young boy going to negatively change the way he lives because he received a participation award?

 

Will it really make someone soft?  If so, most of us are soft because I can remember participation ribbons and awards from back in my childhood.  It actually does recognize achievement, the kid receiving actually did do something and he did earn it.  He was on the team, he was in the event, he was there.  Do we only recognize the stars and then talk about how important teamwork is?

 

Let's talk about crime and drugs, alcohol and poverty, things that really do have a negative effect on many.  Participation trophies?  You gotta be kidding! If it made them feel good, I wish every kid in the world would get one for something. There can't be anything wrong in making someone feel somewhat important for a minute.

A good question is when and why did this start. I remember as a youth winning a championship and finishing in last place. When you won you got a trophy and when you finished last you got nothing. I somehow despite what the social scientists tell us survived. My "self esteem" was not damaged. It actually prepared me for the REAL WORLD. Seems today that is postponed later and later. 

Originally Posted by Will:

A good question is when and why did this start. I remember as a youth winning a championship and finishing in last place. When you won you got a trophy and when you finished last you got nothing. I somehow despite what the social scientists tell us survived. My "self esteem" was not damaged. It actually prepared me for the REAL WORLD. Seems today that is postponed later and later. 

 

When and why what started?

 

I have no doubt that your experience is exactly as you said. Speaking only of sports, my question is, did you play every sport in every area of the country? My point is, everyone’s life experiences are different!

This issue always cracks me up.  The difference between now and the "Good old days" is that the parents are actually involved with rec sports. 

 

In my day not even half of the Mom's and Dad's showed up for anything athletic until HS.  I can remember riding my bike to the Y to play Saturday morning rec basketball games.  35 people in the gym.  20 players on the 2 teams, 2 coaches, 2 refs, 2 guys keeping score and a few parents and kids on other teams.

 

Most of the Moms were in the pool with brothers or sisters of the players in the gym and Dad was nowhere in sight.  When I got home I usually got, "How'd it go?" then I'd answer and he wasn't listening very closely.  The closer was always "Go clean/mow/move something or another".  I was viewed as labor to keep him in his chair.  The pay for me was food and avoiding a butt whipping by keeping it moving.

 

So the real issue about making kids soft has absolutely nothing to do with giving a 10 year old a plastic trinket.  The only plausible argument for if that child will be "soft" is  who is raising that 10 year old.  That has not changed in the history of mankind and no matter how many ribbons, plaques, trophies you hand to kids that isn't changing .....ever. 

 

FWIW my perspective is that anything that costs a something like $5 bucks and is designed to promote any kind of athletic activity among young people is a wise investment in our children as a whole.  So pass'em out and maybe they come back for the next season.  Even at that I doubt any disinterested 11 year is going out for LL simply for the trophy at the end. 

 

He'd rather sit at home on his phone.  In the end PHONES are the real enemy and not trophies. 

Maybe it's just me, I just don't see participation trophies as any problem whatsoever.

 

To me it's another topic to talk about, just not a very important one.

I just read the link to the story.  Scientists have found a link between Participation awards and crime? I guess someone could find a link between bananas and crime.

 

Are all those terrorists in the world former participation award recipients?  

 

The thing maybe most responsible for crime is poverty!  And I'm going to bet that most of those poverty stricken kids in this country aren't the ones receiving participation awards.

 

There will always be those that are soft and those that are tough.  Always has been! 

 

I'm not claiming that kids should be rewarded for finishing last.  Hell they already know they finished last. Just like that kid that earns his degree with the worst possible GPA.

 

More than anything I like to consider myself a promoter of baseball.  I truly want the game to grow.   We have involved ourselves in a project we call "Create a Fan". My belief is there will always be plenty of players as long as there are plenty of fans.  So in that regard, fans are more important than players.  We do a home run contest every year at the Minor League stadium for young kids, boys and girls.  We use portable fences for the different ages.  It is free of charge and every kid receives an award.  Their picture goes up on the big outfield video screen, the PA announcer announces their name and after their final swing they run to 1st base where a former player pats them on the back and tells them how great they are.  The whole idea is to create a positive memory about baseball.  Hope it helps them become baseball fans for life.  The young kids that actually win the contest get trophies.  The rest get participation awards and TShirts to help them remember things.

 

We do the same thing with an actual league we run for underprivileged kids. So we don't have any scientific study to prove any of this is working.  But we are pretty sure it is working in a positive way.

The thing maybe most responsible for crime is poverty! 

 

off the topic but since you mentioned it? there are a lot of people that are poor and they do not commit crime

   There are times I wish cell phones were never invented!  

Apparently the single factor that best predicts whether you become and remain a fan of a sport is whether you played as a kid (and learned to love rather than hate the sport in the process, I would guess.)

 

Ergo.  the more kids that play baseball and enjoy it, the better for baseball.

 

BUT:  Baseball is a HARD sport to get started in. 

 

Side Commentary:  

 

Unlike soccer, which takes great skills at high levels, but relatively little skill at the beginning.  Unfortunately,  baseball can't really be played all that well by those who lack a certain level of skill.  

 

Consequence of the above:

 

Especially at entry and just beyond entry levels, I am all for giving kids some reward that makes them fell GOOD about their baseball experience.  The game itself,just taken on its own, is likely to be pretty frustrating for lots of kids in the beginning

 

I say celebrate everything good that happens.   Make playing this "game of failure"  as joyful as you possibly can.

 

Do participation trophies have a role as part of the mix of things that can bring joyfulness to learning to play and love baseball?   You bet, especially at an early age.    Whatever keeps some kid or other coming back for more, as he gradually acquires the set of skills to play the game somewhat competently. 

 

After awhile, as the competence level and competitiveness goes up, you reward them for other sorts of achievements.  

 

Do I worry about making young boys soft?  Heck no. Young boys deserve a little softness in their lives.   Plenty of time to toughen up and man up later in life. 

 

 

 

Just because it has come up and having worked years in crime analysis...

 

There is a correlation between ice cream consumption and crime rates in a population, and the single largest factor in predicting criminal behavior is relative economic status.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if there was also a correlation between banana consumption and crime rates, for the same reasons as ice cream and crime. 

 

I wish I could be at the bedside of someone who is awakening from a twenty-year coma and show him an iPhone. "We now have this amazing device," I'd tell him. "we have, in the palm of our hands a device that allows us instant access to all the knowledge gathered throughout the entire history of mankind. However, mostly we use it to watch cute videos of housecats and to check baseball scores."

I think you missed the point...

I know we've gotten WAY off topic, but I thought I'd share this. Years ago when I was eighteen, I used to drive an ice cream truck in the St. Louis area. By far, the most sought after routes and the most lucrative were those in the impoverished and crime-ridden areas. Rich neighborhoods on your route meant no sales.  

That made me chuckle!  It's so true!  My family will ask me stuff all the time, and I'm like, "Look it up!  That's what your Smart Phone is for."

Another recent news piece on the topic...  Steelers James Harrison has kids return participation trophies.

And then "experts" analyze...

 

https://gma.yahoo.com/pittsbur...-news-parenting.html#

Personally I just don't care - one way or the other - about participation trophies.  Honestly I think Its wasted time talking about it (yes I realize I am wasting that time right now, but what the heck its my time to waste).  My son always gives them to his younger siblings.  Even when his team wins a tournament - a trophy they all earned - he usually gives them away.  He gave one to the bat boy once who is one of the players little brothers.  That made that kids day.  Point is if your son is not really likely to play much more baseball whats the harm in him getting some little momento?  And if your son is serious about extending his ride in the game of baseball odds are they aren't fixated on their trophies, plaques and medals.  My son stays focused on his goals.  His dream and the hard work he puts in to chasing that dream.  But I will tell you this, if someday he makes it to his dream school but he falls a little short of stardom and he is a bench player and they give him a letter or whatever they may do in college...  I hope he keeps that participation award because it WILL be an accomplishment just getting there.  But heres the thing for my son making a high school baseball team is a foregone conclusion - college would be the accomplishment.  But what about the kid who has to work his butt off just to be on a varsity high school team?  Maybe that was a huge accomplishment for him.  Should he give his varsity letter back cause he was a bench player?  And we can go on down the line.  Maybe for some kids its an accomplishment just to stand in the batters box when they are 9 cause they are scared to death.  Live and let live.

Gah.  Extrinsic rewards don't work in the long run, but in the case of trophies like this that would mean that the only reason you're playing is for the trophy, which I assume his kids, and most others, are not.

 

At youth ages, say less than 10-12 depending on the kids, "participation" trophies are an actual reward for putting in the effort required to be part of a team, and are actually earned.  As such, they are rewarding the end product of the sort of intrinsic factors that team sports are meant to build, and which are the foundation of the drive required to play sports (or do many other things) at older kid and adult levels.

Give them T-shirts, they out grow them or wear out by next spring and you throw them away. And I don't have to build any more shelves!

When my daughter was fifteen she explained her 10yo all star tee shirt fit just fine.

       
       

My son and I still wear tournament T-shirts from pre-HS days.

Once they graduate high school and head to college, the varsity jacket stays in the closet and the trophies end up in a box in the attic...where THEIR children discover them years later and say "Dang Dad, you weren't too shabby".  

Dang internet. It has stolen the glory from an entire generation.

I don't think the trophies are the problem. Or the lack of throphies. The problem is the parents who fail to teach them at home what they don't think they are getting outside of the home. And then rail about how someone taught their kid something that ruined them. How is a trophy going to screw up a young kid? Unless the parent is screwed up. In that case blame it on the trophy. If my kid feels a sense of entitlement because he got a trophy for just being on the team then he hasn't learned what it means to earn something. And that means I have failed to teach him that at home. If I have taught him those lessons or I am teaching him those lessons at home. He will already know the deal with the trophy. I won't have to say a thing.

 

Look at it this way. This is just another advantage your son will have over the rest of the world. They expect a reward for something and your son expects to earn a reward. It's not like they are gettting a paycheck and not working and your having to work for your paycheck. Oh................???? Lol

So just to be sure I understand what is going on here, the same generation of people that has put our country into a $18 Trillion hole, isn't addressing Social Security and Medicare about fail and a dozen other long term problems is worried we are destroying kids because of participation trophies in sports.

 

Hmmmm.....smells a lot like Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

 

We should be more worried about OUR own entitlement mentality first.  We are leaving our kids a pile of crap they way we are going and they may take these trophies and throw them at us someday.  At least we will have earned it I suppose.