San Diego is investigating one of its larger, wealthier HS baseball programs.
http://enewspaper.sandiegounio...3c-a82f-1ab095a198ca
What isn't noted is, several years before these allegations, the same HS forced the baseball coach out due to pay to play allegations.
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WOW
I guess I look at this from a totally different perspective. Parents don't seem to have any issue with paying a LOT more money than the sum in the article for summer teams, private lessons, showcases, etc. it costs money to have nice facilities and new uniforms. There are schools in our region that have nicer facilities and some even have team travel gear.
My son had 4 uniforms, practice jersey and a set of workout clothes. We only provided glove and spikes. I understand this may be a lot more than some had, but I assure you it was less than many teams we played.
Point is, the taxpayers gripe about spending any money on athletics in our area. So all extras come from fundraising. I was fortunate enough to be able to write a check. Others worked to reach their contribution level. The LAST thing we need is the ACLU telling us how we should run extracurricular activities. I'm sure that I am gonna get slammed for that comment, but that's MY opinion and I have equal rights to free speech as well. I loved how the article talked about free schools. That's the problem with the left's thinking. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, in life is free. So why not let the ones getting the benefit pay for it? I can see the "pay for play" argument. But if the coach isn't putting a winning team on the field, his job won't last long. Really just another excuse for parents to use why little johnnie isn't getting playing time. I heard this garbage all through my son's years playing ball, not just baseball. Truth is, it very seldom had anything to do with who paid what or did what. It always comes down to talent in the end for any reputable program at all levels. I'll get off my soapbox now.
I couldn't see the from the link, but found the story online.
http://www.sandiegouniontribun...-20170503-story.html
Sounds like there are some issues. $100,000 plus to run a HS baseball team. Participant donations/fees instead of fundraising -- go sell a lot of pies. Coach's wife on foundation board. And a complete lack of transparency of where the money goes. Certainly there are problems and issues which should be cleaned up.
Golfman25 posted:
…Sounds like there are some issues. $100,000 plus to run a HS baseball team. Participant donations/fees instead of fundraising -- go sell a lot of pies. Coach's wife on foundation board. And a complete lack of transparency of where the money goes. Certainly there are problems and issues which should be cleaned up.
At a minimum there are questions that should be answered.
What I don’t understand is why politics have to be brought into it, and why say the ACLU is trying to tell anyone how to run anything? The lady in the article is perfectly within her rights to do what she’s doing.
Needs and wants are two completely different things. I have zero problems helping a program meet there needs. I struggle with the wants and when the two get mixed together. NO public school NEEDS $100k for the baseball program.
I would like to see a minimum standard set for programs throughout a district. Fund raise to that standard. Than a separate pool of fundraising for wants.
For instance a few years ago the foundation reached out to individuals regarding a new cages for the middle school. They needed 10k. I agreed with the want and contributed.
I don't agree with 4 personalized uniforms and three hats for varsity baseball.
I'm waiting for the first parent of a starter in the history of high school sports to complain about pay to play. It's always the parent of a precious cupcake who was cut. Now the parent needs to justify their former LL all star getting cut in high school.
Travel players getting preferential treatment for being selected to the team? How about they're more committed to the game and typically more skilled?
Some high schools charge to play each sport. They sell spirit packs. They charge for transportation. They "encourage" the purchase of advertising in an otherwise useless program.
I wouldn't be surprised if the investigation uncovers poor accountability practices and possible Title IX violations. But they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play
This same thing is going on in some of the wealthier San Francisco suburbs....and not all parents complaining are kids who are cupcakes that were cut. Just too tempting for young coaches not to take advantage of millionaire parents. School in Marin county recently fired a coach who was requiring that players pay and play for his summer program only.
When for-profit travel teams are blended with non-profit HS teams bad things can certainly happen. It's not easy keeping staff, facilities, players -- and, especially, money -- separated and kosher even if the folks in charge have totally honest intent. And don't forget that parent run non-profits are ripped off so often by dishonest board members that it's amazing that anyone trusts any organizations at all with their money.
30 games per season cost money.
Umpires: Somewhere between $50-$100 per game = $1500 on the conservative side
Field upkeep could range from $10K-20K depending on the condition, drainage, diamond dry, amount of landscaping, hot weather issues ...etc..
Uniforms: Usually $50-$100 for the cool ones with the names, and specialized logo = That's $200 per kid easily plus if they provided 2 pair of pants add in another $100 per kid.
Buses to away games: Could be an additional 2-4K
Pay each coach between 3-5K, if they have 7 coaches then that could be 21K-35K
Frankly I'm amazed it didn't cost MORE than $700 per kid!
My son's JV program was $650 per kid, plus $225 in fundraising that you could either write the check for or actually sell the goods. They got jerseys and pants they had to return and one hat, and I still think it was a bargain.
How much would you pay in travel ball for 30 games and 30+ practices?
CaCO3Girl posted:30 games per season cost money.
Umpires: Somewhere between $50-$100 per game = $1500 on the conservative side
Field upkeep could range from $10K-20K depending on the condition, drainage, diamond dry, amount of landscaping, hot weather issues ...etc..
Uniforms: Usually $50-$100 for the cool ones with the names, and specialized logo = That's $200 per kid easily plus if they provided 2 pair of pants add in another $100 per kid.
Buses to away games: Could be an additional 2-4K
Pay each coach between 3-5K, if they have 7 coaches then that could be 21K-35K
Frankly I'm amazed it didn't cost MORE than $700 per kid!
My son's JV program was $650 per kid, plus $225 in fundraising that you could either write the check for or actually sell the goods. They got jerseys and pants they had to return and one hat, and I still think it was a bargain.
How much would you pay in travel ball for 30 games and 30+ practices?
Those numbers are nuts. That's a small fortune. The school should be funding most of it -- coach pay, basic field maintenance, bus travel, umpires. We pay about $150 for a student activity fee and another $80-$150 for misc. gear package -- pants, hats, socks, shoes, shirt. Uniform tops are school owned and reused. A lot of it is supplemented by fundraising.
No HS baseball team should cost $80k to run.
Golfman25 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:30 games per season cost money.
Those numbers are nuts. That's a small fortune. The school should be funding most of it -- coach pay, basic field maintenance, bus travel, umpires. We pay about $150 for a student activity fee and another $80-$150 for misc. gear package -- pants, hats, socks, shoes, shirt. Uniform tops are school owned and reused. A lot of it is supplemented by fundraising.
Agreed. All kids HAVE to pay for in our program is $25 for the sleeves the varsity team wears. And if you bought them last year and they're in good shape, you can wear them again. I have a few extras stashed that I can give a kid if he flat can't afford the $25. That's it.
We have a few fundraisers for sure, and we probably spend $20k a year through the booster club for field maintenance, additional clothing, etc., but we don't make any fee mandatroy.
RJM posted:I'm waiting for the first parent of a starter in the history of high school sports to complain about pay to play. It's always the parent of a precious cupcake who was cut. Now the parent needs to justify their former LL all star getting cut in high school.
Travel players getting preferential treatment for being selected to the team? How about they're more committed to the game and typically more skilled?
Some high schools charge to play each sport. They sell spirit packs. They charge for transportation. They "encourage" the purchase of advertising in an otherwise useless program.
I wouldn't be surprised if the investigation uncovers poor accountability practices and possible Title IX violations. But they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play
I am not making this a personal attack on anyone with a differing opinion FWIW, but RJM you do not know the player, parents, coaching staff or the baseball environment in San Diego AT ALL. I happen to know this player, this Mom, and other parents/players in this program.
My son played with this Mom's son in a national level tournament for a week last summer. Kid is a catcher with varsity level skills, and absolutely rakes at the plate. When I heard he did not make Varsity squad this year as a junior, I was shocked. This is a big, strong kid, probably 6 foot, 210 lbs. He is a baller. Thighs like tree trunks! The article does not mention that McCaskill's son, who plays there, is a catcher as well. Maybe he doesn't want to have to justify the benching of this player to the team and or parents if the perception is that this player is better than the coach's son, who starts. Or maybe he doesn't want to answer to his wife for benching his son. Not sure about that dynamic. Having seen this kid play, he's no cupcake, he'd be on the roster of every HS program in San Diego in my opinion.
The parents are not the kind of folks to make noise. They get the solicitation emails from the school, you don't RJM. The key here is being coercive. For CIF to actually hire an investigator to look into this tells me where there is smoke, there is fire. The kids I know who play on their JV team are also not happy with the program as a whole. Not because their kid didn't make the varsity squad, because they know their kid belongs on JV. But they are more intimately involved in this program than you, RJM. Their kid will likely play varsity next year, and I can tell you they think the program is not above board. This school's parent demographics are the type where writing a check for $700 is a non-issue. Just spoke to a parent in the program who was at the meeting for fundraising for that scoreboard mentioned in the article. Many families were offering to write $5,000 checks from what he said. Out loud. At the meeting.
This is not an issue isolated to one parent or player from what my sources within the program tell me. My son's program operates on a budget that is about 25% of Torrey Pines, we re-use uniforms, play just as many games, travel the same distances, etc. This is an exorbitant amount, by any standard.
Regarding travelball players getting preferential treatment, I can't say that I have first-hand knowledge of that. But when those fancy batting cages are not available to the school's athletes to use because a travelball team is using them, and oh, by the way that travelball coach is an Asst Coach at the high school...well, draw your own conclusions. And I do know that has happened.
But I am glad you know this kid is a cupcake and that "they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play."
Golfman25 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:30 games per season cost money.
Umpires: Somewhere between $50-$100 per game = $1500 on the conservative side
Field upkeep could range from $10K-20K depending on the condition, drainage, diamond dry, amount of landscaping, hot weather issues ...etc..
Uniforms: Usually $50-$100 for the cool ones with the names, and specialized logo = That's $200 per kid easily plus if they provided 2 pair of pants add in another $100 per kid.
Buses to away games: Could be an additional 2-4K
Pay each coach between 3-5K, if they have 7 coaches then that could be 21K-35K
Frankly I'm amazed it didn't cost MORE than $700 per kid!
My son's JV program was $650 per kid, plus $225 in fundraising that you could either write the check for or actually sell the goods. They got jerseys and pants they had to return and one hat, and I still think it was a bargain.
How much would you pay in travel ball for 30 games and 30+ practices?
Those numbers are nuts. That's a small fortune. The school should be funding most of it -- coach pay, basic field maintenance, bus travel, umpires. We pay about $150 for a student activity fee and another $80-$150 for misc. gear package -- pants, hats, socks, shoes, shirt. Uniform tops are school owned and reused. A lot of it is supplemented by fundraising.
School funding is an entirely different thread. I can say that $700 would not be out of line around here and we aren't an affluent bunch. We don't even have bathrooms at our fields, we have port-o-potties, but we did get a new score board this year...light up and everything 
SanDiegoRealist posted:RJM posted:I'm waiting for the first parent of a starter in the history of high school sports to complain about pay to play. It's always the parent of a precious cupcake who was cut. Now the parent needs to justify their former LL all star getting cut in high school.
Travel players getting preferential treatment for being selected to the team? How about they're more committed to the game and typically more skilled?
Some high schools charge to play each sport. They sell spirit packs. They charge for transportation. They "encourage" the purchase of advertising in an otherwise useless program.
I wouldn't be surprised if the investigation uncovers poor accountability practices and possible Title IX violations. But they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play
I am not making this a personal attack on anyone with a differing opinion FWIW, but RJM you do not know the player, parents, coaching staff or the baseball environment in San Diego AT ALL. I happen to know this player, this Mom, and other parents/players in this program.
My son played with this Mom's son in a national level tournament for a week last summer. Kid is a catcher with varsity level skills, and absolutely rakes at the plate. When I heard he did not make Varsity squad this year as a junior, I was shocked. This is a big, strong kid, probably 6 foot, 210 lbs. He is a baller. Thighs like tree trunks! The article does not mention that McCaskill's son, who plays there, is a catcher as well. Maybe he doesn't want to have to justify the benching of this player to the team and or parents if the perception is that this player is better than the coach's son, who starts. Or maybe he doesn't want to answer to his wife for benching his son. Not sure about that dynamic. Having seen this kid play, he's no cupcake, he'd be on the roster of every HS program in San Diego in my opinion.
The parents are not the kind of folks to make noise. They get the solicitation emails from the school, you don't RJM. The key here is being coercive. For CIF to actually hire an investigator to look into this tells me where there is smoke, there is fire. The kids I know who play on their JV team are also not happy with the program as a whole. Not because their kid didn't make the varsity squad, because they know their kid belongs on JV. But they are more intimately involved in this program than you, RJM. Their kid will likely play varsity next year, and I can tell you they think the program is not above board. This school's parent demographics are the type where writing a check for $700 is a non-issue. Just spoke to a parent in the program who was at the meeting for fundraising for that scoreboard mentioned in the article. Many families were offering to write $5,000 checks from what he said. Out loud. At the meeting.
This is not an issue isolated to one parent or player from what my sources within the program tell me. My son's program operates on a budget that is about 25% of Torrey Pines, we re-use uniforms, play just as many games, travel the same distances, etc. This is an exorbitant amount, by any standard.
Regarding travelball players getting preferential treatment, I can't say that I have first-hand knowledge of that. But when those fancy batting cages are not available to the school's athletes to use because a travelball team is using them, and oh, by the way that travelball coach is an Asst Coach at the high school...well, draw your own conclusions. And I do know that has happened.
But I am glad you know this kid is a cupcake and that "they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play."
Let's not make it personal attack. Let's just mention my name very pointingly, how many times?
Anything is possible. But from having been all the way through the journey with two kids I've yet to see a parent be right on this one. I've seen parents complain about the coach giving his kid preferential treatment over their kid. The coach's kid ends up going D1. The complainer's kid goes nowhere. As many have mentioned in the past parents don't see what goes on at practice and in school.
With so many parents crying "wolf" by the time the possibility of a wolf exists it's hard to get people's attention.
There have been other threads where people have listed what they pay for their kids to play high school baseball and I am always amazed. $650-$700 for an extra curricular sport is nuts. We pay $160 per sport to play. You pay less if you are on free or reduced lunch. Our program's entire budget is more in the $7-10k range. And, we have multiple uniform combinations, all of which are owned by the school and none are personalized.
This passage stood out for me: "Gumb and other baseball parents did pay a total of $790 for their boys to participate in fall and winter seasons that are not sanctioned by the high school, but led by Torrey Pines baseball coaches while feeding money into the foundation.
Baril said 51 percent of the off-season league fees go to the foundation and 49 percent to the coaches as compensation for their time."
That wouldn't fly in our state because there are strict rules for coaches working with kids during the off season. It sounds like a conflict of interest, at the minimum.
And $205k for a basketball program? Basketball gets more money than football? That is just plain crazy. Our football program has about a $15k annual budget.
RJM posted:SanDiegoRealist posted:RJM posted:I'm waiting for the first parent of a starter in the history of high school sports to complain about pay to play. It's always the parent of a precious cupcake who was cut. Now the parent needs to justify their former LL all star getting cut in high school.
Travel players getting preferential treatment for being selected to the team? How about they're more committed to the game and typically more skilled?
Some high schools charge to play each sport. They sell spirit packs. They charge for transportation. They "encourage" the purchase of advertising in an otherwise useless program.
I wouldn't be surprised if the investigation uncovers poor accountability practices and possible Title IX violations. But they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play
I am not making this a personal attack on anyone with a differing opinion FWIW, but RJM you do not know the player, parents, coaching staff or the baseball environment in San Diego AT ALL. I happen to know this player, this Mom, and other parents/players in this program.
My son played with this Mom's son in a national level tournament for a week last summer. Kid is a catcher with varsity level skills, and absolutely rakes at the plate. When I heard he did not make Varsity squad this year as a junior, I was shocked. This is a big, strong kid, probably 6 foot, 210 lbs. He is a baller. Thighs like tree trunks! The article does not mention that McCaskill's son, who plays there, is a catcher as well. Maybe he doesn't want to have to justify the benching of this player to the team and or parents if the perception is that this player is better than the coach's son, who starts. Or maybe he doesn't want to answer to his wife for benching his son. Not sure about that dynamic. Having seen this kid play, he's no cupcake, he'd be on the roster of every HS program in San Diego in my opinion.
The parents are not the kind of folks to make noise. They get the solicitation emails from the school, you don't RJM. The key here is being coercive. For CIF to actually hire an investigator to look into this tells me where there is smoke, there is fire. The kids I know who play on their JV team are also not happy with the program as a whole. Not because their kid didn't make the varsity squad, because they know their kid belongs on JV. But they are more intimately involved in this program than you, RJM. Their kid will likely play varsity next year, and I can tell you they think the program is not above board. This school's parent demographics are the type where writing a check for $700 is a non-issue. Just spoke to a parent in the program who was at the meeting for fundraising for that scoreboard mentioned in the article. Many families were offering to write $5,000 checks from what he said. Out loud. At the meeting.
This is not an issue isolated to one parent or player from what my sources within the program tell me. My son's program operates on a budget that is about 25% of Torrey Pines, we re-use uniforms, play just as many games, travel the same distances, etc. This is an exorbitant amount, by any standard.
Regarding travelball players getting preferential treatment, I can't say that I have first-hand knowledge of that. But when those fancy batting cages are not available to the school's athletes to use because a travelball team is using them, and oh, by the way that travelball coach is an Asst Coach at the high school...well, draw your own conclusions. And I do know that has happened.
But I am glad you know this kid is a cupcake and that "they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play."
Let's not make it personal attack. Let's just mention my name very pointingly, how many times?
Anything is possible. But from having been all the way through the journey with two kids I've yet to see a parent be right on this one. I've seen parents complain about the coach giving his kid preferential treatment over their kid. The coach's kid ends up going D1. The complainer's kid goes nowhere. As many have mentioned in the past parents don't see what goes on at practice and in school.
With so many parents crying "wolf" by the time the possibility of a wolf exists it's hard to get people's attention.
Well crap, I quoted you...not like people didn't know who I was referring to in the post. I just wanted to stay "refreshingly cordial." The problem she is bringing to light is how the money is being spent, who is handling it, accountability, and the perception of pay for play. High school coaches need to either fish or cut bait...either coach at the high school level and leave the travelball world behind so there is no perception of favoritism and pay for play or go all in in the travelball world. In Southern California, it's rampant and that is because the travel baseball organizations need fields to practice and scrimmage on. Good luck finding facilities because USSSA, Triple Crown and others dominate the local fields every weekend with tournaments. Schools in San Diego require payment for the use of fields and facilities at schools, and it's ridiculously cheap. Easier to just hire someone on the inside (an assistant coach or head coach) who can make the field accessible to you. And if that club team should happen to funnel you skilled players to, and perhaps your rosters are dominated by players from that travel team...there is a very reasonable viewpoint that the teams are in cahoots with the school program in some manner. Perceptions are difficult to control, and those who are able to operate programs long-term that are above reproach and/or speculation are few and far between.
RJM posted:Let's not make it personal attack. Let's just mention my name very pointingly, how many times?
Anything is possible. But from having been all the way through the journey with two kids I've yet to see a parent be right on this one. I've seen parents complain about the coach giving his kid preferential treatment over their kid. The coach's kid ends up going D1. The complainer's kid goes nowhere. As many have mentioned in the past parents don't see what goes on at practice and in school.
With so many parents crying "wolf" by the time the possibility of a wolf exists it's hard to get people's attention.
But you only have your experience. And you haven't seen it. That's fine. But doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And heck, for all we know it could be prevalent in some areas. There are certain things thrown around in these discussion that I have taken as "truths." That was until I saw the situations myself with my own two eyes.
CaCO3Girl posted:30 games per season cost money.
Umpires: Somewhere between $50-$100 per game = $1500 on the conservative side
Field upkeep could range from $10K-20K depending on the condition, drainage, diamond dry, amount of landscaping, hot weather issues ...etc..
Uniforms: Usually $50-$100 for the cool ones with the names, and specialized logo = That's $200 per kid easily plus if they provided 2 pair of pants add in another $100 per kid.
Buses to away games: Could be an additional 2-4K
Pay each coach between 3-5K, if they have 7 coaches then that could be 21K-35K
Frankly I'm amazed it didn't cost MORE than $700 per kid!
My son's JV program was $650 per kid, plus $225 in fundraising that you could either write the check for or actually sell the goods. They got jerseys and pants they had to return and one hat, and I still think it was a bargain.
How much would you pay in travel ball for 30 games and 30+ practices?
Field maintenance varies wildly from one school to the next. But 10-20K would definitely be high side unless you are grooming that field like a MLB diamond! And very very few programs pay 7 coaches. Likely some are volunteer or they split salaries. It is not all that uncommon to only have about 10K total for coaches. Split any way the head coach likes (except he can't collect more than the slotted head coach stipend). What has happened is mentality has shifted from 'sports are part of education and are just part of what taxes cover' to 'sports are not necessary so they should be treated like a club and be paid for separately' Sad.
As for this topic in general... I am certainly more willing to spend money on travel ball than school ball. Now I understand things are different in different parts of the country but at least my experience is high school ball (freshman on JV) is as bad as advertised. The product difference demands a price difference. A few hundred bucks for the high school experience may just be a few hundred too much. A few thousand for travel while tough to swallow may just be appropriate.
RJM posted:I'm waiting for the first parent of a starter in the history of high school sports to complain about pay to play. It's always the parent of a precious cupcake who was cut. Now the parent needs to justify their former LL all star getting cut in high school.
Travel players getting preferential treatment for being selected to the team? How about they're more committed to the game and typically more skilled?
Some high schools charge to play each sport. They sell spirit packs. They charge for transportation. They "encourage" the purchase of advertising in an otherwise useless program.
I wouldn't be surprised if the investigation uncovers poor accountability practices and possible Title IX violations. But they won't find anything intentional and illegal pay to play
I think its a matter of the experience simply not being worth paying for. I can only speak for our experience but it has nothing to do with starting or not starting. He has started every game on JV and is likely to make varsity as a soph but may not play cause its just not good baseball and not worth the extra time and money. Even on the varsity level there are a handful of good teams on your schedule then some so so teams and some teams that would get regularly pounded by decent 14u travel teams. Just a value judgment and that is an issue that is different for different people.
