I've read some old threads on this topic, but never quite got a clear picture on this: what's the essential difference in PBR as compared to PG? And relatedly, if my son goes to one and doesn't perform well (hence not good measurables), is the basically hosed or is it not really detrimental?
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Welcome to here...its a great place...check out the magnifying glass looking thing on the top line that has HOME TOPICS SURVEYS...a freaking ton has been discussed here (even in the last 6 months and even more over the ~15 months I have been here) over the years. A lot of it is still relevant. A quick search found this thread...
Link to Perfect Game vs PBR thread
Feel free to ask questions on any old threads or if you cant find one that fits then start a new one. What is nice is that lots of people who posted thoughts are on the backside of many of those things in the thread and have some great insights and often will respond to old posts. I have DM'd several people with things I did not want to necessarily post in a thread too.
There are people that post regularly that have kids who now are D1 coaches, 1st round MLB draft pics, and kids that played D3 (and had amazing college baseball experiences). Some played JUCO only while others were (and currently are) weekend P5 starters.
To answer your last question many here would say be ready and have some legit measurables if possible prior to paying $250-$1000 for a showcase event. A quick search on each of their sites can get you some good intel on what kind of measurables are already out there to compare with your kid (or have potential college RC's compare your kid to).
PBR and PG vary greatly from state to state. If FL PG is king, although it seems like PBR is starting to make an effort here.
As far as measurable go, they are what they are. They shouldn’t vary too much, even on a bad performance. The numbers will change (hopefully for the better) each year. My son is a completely different player physically than he was a year ago.
Basically there is not much difference. The PG events run by PG are very consistent while there PG events run by 3rd parties are little more variable.The PBR events very from state to state because each state is it's on franchise. PBR has added a lot High tech partners in the last 2 years And I think that will Increase their standings moving forward. But either can Provide legitimate Measurable's for coach's to see
For those who have a good sense of the talent in your state, what's your assessment of your state's PBR being accurate and independent and Futures games selection? My son was on a team with kids from several adjoining states and heard that PBR favors certain organizations because of partnerships and influence in general. Overall I am not going to complain but I do think that Futures selections are super important and often can make or break a kid's recruitment and should be taken very seriously. Also, should players get invited to Futures twice? I have seen that and don't think it should occur. If you make the team as a Freshman or earlier fine but if you didn't get your offer there's reason for that.
PG showcases cost 2-4 times as much as PBR. PBR has franchises in many states, so showcases may be closer to where you live. Depending on the state, PBR may scout high-school games and write about them. PG runs a huge organization whose original function (and still a focus) was ranking high-school players for the draft. If your son is draftable, you can do a PG showcase his junior year. If that's not your son, why bother spending the extra money?
Measure his measurables before deciding whether and when to go to a showcase. If measurables don't stand out, don't go. Mediocre measurables may not hurt him, but they won't help, either, and you will then feel pushed to pay for another showcase to improve the numbers displayed online. "Go to showcases when you have something to show" means, go when his skills and measurables will be of immediate interest to colleges who might be recruiting him at the time of the showcase. For D1 that is any time, for D2, D3, juco, etc., that is summer after junior year.
Note that I write as a parent of a D3 player who did PBR showcases every year, because a high-school coach said that was a good idea, and because his friends were doing them. A lot of money was spent, for no useful result. Some posters on here have P5 and drafted sons, and their advice is different, and appropriate for them.
following up on AP's great post, it may be better to find a smaller organization (Prospect Select, Prospect Wire, etc) and pay a lot less to get the measurables. Showcases are a huge money maker for PBR and more so PG.
@used2lurk posted:Welcome to here...its a great place...check out the magnifying glass looking thing on the top line that has HOME TOPICS SURVEYS...a freaking ton has been discussed here (even in the last 6 months and even more over the ~15 months I have been here) over the years. A lot of it is still relevant. A quick search found this thread...
Link to Perfect Game vs PBR thread
Feel free to ask questions on any old threads or if you cant find one that fits then start a new one. What is nice is that lots of people who posted thoughts are on the backside of many of those things in the thread and have some great insights and often will respond to old posts. I have DM'd several people with things I did not want to necessarily post in a thread too.
There are people that post regularly that have kids who now are D1 coaches, 1st round MLB draft pics, and kids that played D3 (and had amazing college baseball experiences). Some played JUCO only while others were (and currently are) weekend P5 starters.
To answer your last question many here would say be ready and have some legit measurables if possible prior to paying $250-$1000 for a showcase event. A quick search on each of their sites can get you some good intel on what kind of measurables are already out there to compare with your kid (or have potential college RC's compare your kid to).
Thanks for the welcome and link, funny how "mysterious" this whole thing is -- someone should write a guide for it. Great username by the way!
@TerribleBPthrower posted:PBR and PG vary greatly from state to state. If FL PG is king, although it seems like PBR is starting to make an effort here.
As far as measurable go, they are what they are. They shouldn’t vary too much, even on a bad performance. The numbers will change (hopefully for the better) each year. My son is a completely different player physically than he was a year ago.
We're in Florida so I guess I should lean toward PG. To your point re: maturity, I'm wondering if better to wait until as late as possible to get the numbers (but then, when is that?).
@bandera posted:Basically there is not much difference. The PG events run by PG are very consistent while there PG events run by 3rd parties are little more variable.The PBR events very from state to state because each state is it's on franchise. PBR has added a lot High tech partners in the last 2 years And I think that will Increase their standings moving forward. But either can Provide legitimate Measurable's for coach's to see
ok thanks!
@anotherparent posted:PG showcases cost 2-4 times as much as PBR. PBR has franchises in many states, so showcases may be closer to where you live. Depending on the state, PBR may scout high-school games and write about them. PG runs a huge organization whose original function (and still a focus) was ranking high-school players for the draft. If your son is draftable, you can do a PG showcase his junior year. If that's not your son, why bother spending the extra money?
Measure his measurables before deciding whether and when to go to a showcase. If measurables don't stand out, don't go. Mediocre measurables may not hurt him, but they won't help, either, and you will then feel pushed to pay for another showcase to improve the numbers displayed online. "Go to showcases when you have something to show" means, go when his skills and measurables will be of immediate interest to colleges who might be recruiting him at the time of the showcase. For D1 that is any time, for D2, D3, juco, etc., that is summer after junior year.
Note that I write as a parent of a D3 player who did PBR showcases every year, because a high-school coach said that was a good idea, and because his friends were doing them. A lot of money was spent, for no useful result. Some posters on here have P5 and drafted sons, and their advice is different, and appropriate for them.
@anotherparent posted:PG showcases cost 2-4 times as much as PBR. PBR has franchises in many states, so showcases may be closer to where you live. Depending on the state, PBR may scout high-school games and write about them. PG runs a huge organization whose original function (and still a focus) was ranking high-school players for the draft. If your son is draftable, you can do a PG showcase his junior year. If that's not your son, why bother spending the extra money?
Measure his measurables before deciding whether and when to go to a showcase. If measurables don't stand out, don't go. Mediocre measurables may not hurt him, but they won't help, either, and you will then feel pushed to pay for another showcase to improve the numbers displayed online. "Go to showcases when you have something to show" means, go when his skills and measurables will be of immediate interest to colleges who might be recruiting him at the time of the showcase. For D1 that is any time, for D2, D3, juco, etc., that is summer after junior year.
Note that I write as a parent of a D3 player who did PBR showcases every year, because a high-school coach said that was a good idea, and because his friends were doing them. A lot of money was spent, for no useful result. Some posters on here have P5 and drafted sons, and their advice is different, and appropriate for them.
Thanks for this and the note for context. So summer after JR year isn't too late for D3s? No risk of being left behind in the process?
@TerribleBPthrower posted:following up on AP's great post, it may be better to find a smaller organization (Prospect Select, Prospect Wire, etc) and pay a lot less to get the measurables. Showcases are a huge money maker for PBR and more so PG.
Thanks I'll see if there are any PS or PW events in the not too distant future nearby.
@BaseballJoe posted:We're in Florida so I guess I should lean toward PG. To your point re: maturity, I'm wondering if better to wait until as late as possible to get the numbers (but then, when is that?).
My son has done a handful of smaller showcases and "scout days" for his travel teams. It gave him baseline numbers to work with and set his goals. He is a 2023 and right now I don't see any reason to spend the money for a PG showcase. I guess one advantage I've seen is a solid performance can get him some attention from better travel teams. He's already getting that right now from having a great fall season.
I think you also need to figure out your goals and which pools to swim in. My son has no interest in most D1 or P5 schools. He's specifically targeting HA's. For us, the showcase money will be better spent at a Headfirst or Showball this summer or maybe in the fall.
PBR i know very well, i've never heard of PG Beer?
@BaseballJoe posted:Thanks for this and the note for context. So summer after JR year isn't too late for D3s? No risk of being left behind in the process?
How old is your son?
D3s will not be recruiting before the summer after junior year. It doesn't matter about "being on their radar," what matters is having what they want, when they want it - i.e., summer after junior year. Start contacting those coaches January-February of junior year.
It certainly is not unimportant to play summer ball at as high a level as possible each summer. It shows that you can do it. Having measurables that they want, and having a high school or travel coach who can back those up and serve as a reference, matters.
@BaseballJoe posted:We're in Florida so I guess I should lean toward PG. To your point re: maturity, I'm wondering if better to wait until as late as possible to get the numbers (but then, when is that?).
When and where a player displays their talent is more a function of what level they’re targeting for college than PG v. PBR and what state. But regardless of level the player has to have developed something to show and attract eyes.
PBR in Iowa was affordable place for son for get measurables twice a year. He played I think three PG tournaments when he already knew he had D1 interest. They actually were more a reward than a key part of his recruiting. It was fun to see all the hoopla.
@BaseballJoe Everyone up to this point has given you a lot of really good/accurate information. I'd consider every piece of it because one size most certainly does not fit all when it comes to recruiting. Some have have had great success relative to PG and PBR, while others have had borderline worthless experiences with them. It'll make 100% sense once your son has committed, but it really is about experimenting, making educated guesses and then finding what works best for YOUR son and situation.
The one piece I will add to this is that I THINK PBR and PG will take down any metrics you ask them to. I've seen many PBR profiles change over the last year or so that I've kept an eye on it. You'll go in and see some kid's fastball doesn't have a number or has something odd like an 8. Obviously he didn't throw 8 mph. I've also seen metrics and even whole events vanish from players' profiles. I have to assume the player/parent requested those and that makes sense as I can't imagine any org leaving info up online on a kid when the player/parent is telling them they don't want it up. But at least one person already made the point above. Kids rarely have bad showings at a showcase. 99% of the time the showing is generally representative of the player. If any numbers are truly "bad," it simply means the player wasn't properly prepared. I always say that a kid should know what his numbers will be going in. Within a pretty close margin of error. A stopwatch and radar gun will tell you what to expect before you even get to the showcase. Seems like everyone has one or knows someone with a pocket radar these days. Hope is not a strategy for any showcase. Know what your kid's minimum numbers will be ahead of time and only go if they're worth recording/"verifying."
@DanJ posted:The one piece I will add to this is that I THINK PBR and PG will take down any metrics you ask them to. I've seen many PBR profiles change over the last year or so that I've kept an eye on it.
Heard PBR will will not do this just because you ask. Depends on your relationship with the local franchise owner.
@KennieProton that might be the case, but in this day and age, that sounds like a recipe for a lawsuit if they refuse. Or at the very least, negative publicity. The parent (presumably) PAID PBR for the service and PBR is posting information about a MINOR online. Hard to imagine someone so stubborn that they're willing to be the subject of a situation where "posting information online about a minor" is of no concern to them. Me? Yeah, I'm taking it down immediately in line with their request. I already have their $300 and given that they're unhappy with their metrics, they'll likely pony up at least another $300 for a future event if I comply.
But, as always, networking is a very real component of recruiting. Always the right decision to work to have solid relationships with every person connected to your kid's recruiting approach and network. When people say "everybody talks and knows each other," they're not lying. I saw it for myself this summer with my son's journey. I always accepted that it's tight-knit universe, but it's much tighter than even I figured originally.
@BaseballJoe posted:I've read some old threads on this topic, but never quite got a clear picture on this: what's the essential difference in PBR as compared to PG? And relatedly, if my son goes to one and doesn't perform well (hence not good measurables), is the basically hosed or is it not really detrimental?
Welcome to the site.... in your other post you say that your kid is possibly an Ivy recruit and probably a D3 recruit. If so, I wouldn't be comparing PBR vs PG, I would comparing Headfirst and Showball.
A site search for either will retrieve about a zillion good threads, like this one:
https://community.hsbaseballwe...-for-july-15-16-2019
You can also do searches for threads on specific schools and conferences, and there are a bunch of general threads that may be useful if you search for something like "HA D3".
And of course you can ask.
I believe the 5 best travel ball tournaments are - Wilson Premier, Jupiter (Pg), Ft. Myers (PG), WWBA (PG), and PGWS (PG). That can be debated, but from the events I've been to - those were it.
Notice how 4/5 are PG, that was the value PG provided - the best competition and it wasn't really close.
I don't know anything about the showcases other than PGs are absurdly expensive. We did a PBR showcase after a velo bump just to get it verified on the internet, but the event itself wasn't anything special.
The goal is to target schools. I found PG was better for that, some put a lot of faith in PBRs social media. I wouldn't trust it, but some people swear by it. I would target schools more than I would be targeting a specific brand.
But if you take down information that is reliable then your credibility is at risk. I would hope that they would not take down a bad outing if they know that it is the truth. Not their fault that a kid threw 74 today rather than 79 or ran slow or any other thing. They are only as good as their credibility and that is dependent on good and bad numbers or information. You can't post the good information and not post the bad information.
We never paid for a PG showcase but played in a ton of PG tournaments. Paid for 1 PBR showcase to qualify for Futures Game and was one of those who got to play 2 times. They are two different organizations. The Futures Game is the most recruited event we ever went to because of the format but the WWBA and Jupiter events are the best tournaments. I think the compliment each other.
@anotherparent posted:How old is your son?
Having measurables that they want, and having a high school or travel coach who can back those up and serve as a reference, matters.
Son did a number of Baseball Factory and was able to update his measureables, when the "tryout" was nearby where we live. At one event (after encouragement to son), RipkenFanSon asked if they could measure a Home-To-First time (as his 60's were already turning heads). They did after the event. It turned out that HTF time in his profile was very instrumental in his college recruitment. A Rawlings American Legion Showcase later confirmed the number. But it was good to have that recognizable 3rd party measureable under his belt.
I believe PBR is a bit less and PG is a bit more. I think I heard that PBR lets you use any bat whereas PG is wood.
@PitchingFan posted:But if you take down information that is reliable then your credibility is at risk. I would hope that they would not take down a bad outing if they know that it is the truth. Not their fault that a kid threw 74 today rather than 79 or ran slow or any other thing. They are only as good as their credibility and that is dependent on good and bad numbers or information. You can't post the good information and not post the bad information.
We never paid for a PG showcase but played in a ton of PG tournaments. Paid for 1 PBR showcase to qualify for Futures Game and was one of those who got to play 2 times. They are two different organizations. The Futures Game is the most recruited event we ever went to because of the format but the WWBA and Jupiter events are the best tournaments. I think the compliment each other.
It's also important to realize that a bad outing doesn't ruin you. My son went to a Top Prospect PG event and pitched. Did not look like himself. Came out after and his rib had popped out (has a weird thing called slippery rib syndrome). His stats weren't great, his Velo was down. We told the director and told them he wouldn't be there for day 2. It was posted and it never occurred to us to ask them to take it down. It happened. All kids have bad days. I also agree that you lose some credibility if you only post everyone's best outings and take down anything negative.
I have advocated for both of these organizations. Showcases and camps were pretty much the majority of my son's recruiting journey. You have to decide what your target is and they best way to be seen by and impress that audience. I will concur that The PBR Futures was by far the best thing we did. PBR Super 60 was also great.
@PitchingFan posted:But if you take down information that is reliable then your credibility is at risk. I would hope that they would not take down a bad outing if they know that it is the truth. Not their fault that a kid threw 74 today rather than 79 or ran slow or any other thing. They are only as good as their credibility and that is dependent on good and bad numbers or information. You can't post the good information and not post the bad information.
We never paid for a PG showcase but played in a ton of PG tournaments. Paid for 1 PBR showcase to qualify for Futures Game and was one of those who got to play 2 times. They are two different organizations. The Futures Game is the most recruited event we ever went to because of the format but the WWBA and Jupiter events are the best tournaments. I think the compliment each other.
I don't necessarily think taking something down hurts their credibility. Putting something untrue in it's place would hurt their credibility. I've seen that occur at a ProspectSelect showcase. If someone is asking to have numbers removed, they likely aren't going to be on many radars anyway and may not even have interest in being recruited.
To be clear, it's not that I think numbers being taken down is a big issue. Far from it. I've seen a handful of examples out hundreds, if not thousands. And it makes sense that it'd be rare. First off, it's rare that a kid turns in a performance that is significantly different than what they are. So nearly everyone will be mostly okay with what's posted; even if it doesn't give them warm fuzzies. Second, these events cost between $300 and $800. While some people can afford to throw that kind of money away, it's significant for most. Especially when you consider you only get one shot at a 60 and only a few balls to hit and field per event. So your kid got a 78 when you know he can hit 84? Is that worth tossing hundreds of dollars out the window and going another 3-4 months without an online profile for prospective coaches? Not for the vast majority.
Further, some of you lost me when you spoke to PG and PBR risking losing credibility. Because there already isn't more than enough out there that brings their credibility into question? Really? Their rankings, ratings, etc are continual fodder here on HSBBW. Let's not lose focus on the big picture here. They provide some quality things but credibility is not the hill PG/PBR will die on. Money and happy returning paying customers come first.
I think they are pretty respected sources for info. I'm not saying if they don't have a kid ranked well that a coach won't look at them, but most of the kids that are ranked well, are studs. The metrics they provide are solid. The commentary or write ups definitely favor kids they like, but for the most part, if they have exclusive events, coaches show up. The kids they invite to the jr national or the future games are kids coaches want to see. They don't get it that wrong.
I think a lot has to do with location. The PBR guys in PA seem incredible to me, with their efforts. (I'm not in PA.) Other states, not always as much. PG...probably varies by location too. Sometimes you just don't know, too. I never thought my son had much PG exposure from the tournaments. Then, I recently saw a video where one of the PG guys were talking favorably about my son. Up until then, I never knew he saw him play - but, it was obvious by what he was saying that he saw him.
