I feel bad for teenagers that were never able to watch Pedro in his prime. His 1999 and 2000 seasons combined were the greatest pitched seasons in MLB history. Here is an interview with him, talking about how he went about his business, and giving out some true "Pedro-esque" quotes.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...science-of-pitching/
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I feel bad for teenagers that were never able to watch Pedro in his prime. His 1999 and 2000 seasons combined were the greatest pitched seasons in MLB history.
It's a character flaw, perhaps, but whenever I see a statement like that my first inclination is to say, yeah, but what about ___?
Hard to fill in the blank on this one. Lincicum 08 and 09, close but not quite.
Jim Palmer 75 and 76 - very very close.
Koufax 65 and 66? Hmmmm...... maybe.
Denny McClain 68 and 69. Yup, that's the one.
Yes, one of my favorite pitchers. Thanks for posting, good read.
I feel bad for teenagers that were never able to watch Pedro in his prime. His 1999 and 2000 seasons combined were the greatest pitched seasons in MLB history.
It's a character flaw, perhaps, but whenever I see a statement like that my first inclination is to say, yeah, but what about ___?
Hard to fill in the blank on this one. Lincicum 08 and 09, close but not quite.
Jim Palmer 75 and 76 - very very close.
Koufax 65 and 66? Hmmmm...... maybe.
Denny McClain 68 and 69. Yup, that's the one.
I never saw McLain pitch so I can't speak to the visual appeal of his performances, I can only go by what the numbers say. McLain had good seasons in 68 and 69, but they weren't even in the same stratosphere as Pedro's '99 and '00 performances. McLain did not lead the league in a single rate-stat category in 1968, and just one in 1969. Statistically speaking, McLain's 68-69 seasons were well above average, but very far from even being elite, let alone being considered the greatest of all time. There are very legitimate cases to be made that he wasn't even the best pitcher in the league in 1968, simply by perusing Luis Tiant's numbers.
Pedro's production in '99 and '00, when combined with league-wide average performances during the same period, are unparalleled in the game. I don't mean to sound confrontational, but it's really not close. I'd say the only two pitchers that may be close to having the same level of dominance in a short time frame would be Maddux and Koufax, and even that argument would be a stretch.
I'd be happy to show some statistical examples...comparing eras is one of the biggest "baseball nerd" things I love to do. But it'll have to wait until I have a bit more time to mess around with the numbers… the whole "real world" job gets in the way sometimes 
Trading Pedro Martinez to the Expos for Delino DeShields could be the single worst move the Dodgers ever made.
In his prime Pedro was one of the best ever. I would think Randy Johnson might have had two consecutive years that would be comparable. Another pitcher people hardly mention among the best is Johan Santana. For a few years he was as good as anyone has ever been.
JH,
You have probably seen the 2009 comparison of Koufax and Pedro, taken over similar innings during the peak of each career...longer than 2 seasons.
Pretty close when you look at 1,400 innings.
http://www.billjamesonline.com/article1177/
Having seen both, and it probably is an age thing but Koufax in 65/66 and the final game 3 hitter in the 65 WS on 2 days rest left such an impression.
BTW, do you know of any comparisons between Pedro and Juan Marichal. Marichal gets lost in the Koufax/Gibson discussions from that era. His 16 inning battle with Warren Spahn and the 13 inning perfect game...loss of Harvey Haddix were/are two of my very favorite MLB long term memories. On of my favorite SI covers was the photo of a thoroughly exhausted Haddix as the losing pitcher in a game in which he didn't even get credit for a no-hitter.
I feel bad for teenagers that were never able to watch Pedro in his prime. His 1999 and 2000 seasons combined were the greatest pitched seasons in MLB history.
It's a character flaw, perhaps, but whenever I see a statement like that my first inclination is to say, yeah, but what about ___?
Hard to fill in the blank on this one. Lincicum 08 and 09, close but not quite.
Jim Palmer 75 and 76 - very very close.
Koufax 65 and 66? Hmmmm...... maybe.
Denny McClain 68 and 69. Yup, that's the one.
Pedro's 99/00 seasons were the greatest ever.
Some perspective:
Kershaw's best season was 13' and Pedro had a span from 97'-03' where 5 of 7 seasons were better and a few were much much better.
Jim Palmer's best season ties for Pedro's 7th best and Palmer's 2nd best would have been Pedro's 10th best.
Koufax's peak doesn't crack Pedro's top 5 seasons.
Denny McLain's best season would rank as Pedro's 10th best season.
The closest are Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson.
Bob Gibson is yet another candidate. Pedro had the lowest whip in the history of baseball one of those years! The best WHIP EVER for a season. Just over .7, that is unheard of domination.
That is one of the most complete, insightful short-read interviews from a pitching great I've ever read. Did not realize he was that much of a student of the game. Thanks for posting.
If you're looking for guys who posted tremendous 2-year peaks -- irrespective of whether their careers were short or long -- think about:
Steve Carlton
Ron Guidry
Bob Gibson
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Dizzy Dean
Tom Seaver
I would say that Pedro was the best in the past 35 years. But pull up some of these guys' historical stats and take a look. And bear in mind that many of them were going every fourth day and putting up complete games a lot of the time.
... and that's to say nothing of certain relievers. Maybe their short outings don't get the same love, but think about the peak years of guys like Eckersley, Smoltz (his years as a closer rank with the best), or Fingers.
Heck, Fingers was doing 2-3 inning saves 4 times a week! How soon we forget.
And Craig Kimbrell may belong in that group now. He had a season where he struck out more than half the batters he faced, then came close to that again the next year! Who has ever done that?
If you're looking for guys who posted tremendous 2-year peaks -- irrespective of whether their careers were short or long -- think about:
Steve Carlton
Ron Guidry
Bob Gibson
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Dizzy Dean
Tom Seaver
I would say that Pedro was the best in the past 35 years. But pull up some of these guys' historical stats and take a look. And bear in mind that many of them were going every fourth day and putting up complete games a lot of the time.
... and that's to say nothing of certain relievers. Maybe their short outings don't get the same love, but think about the peak years of guys like Eckersley, Smoltz (his years as a closer rank with the best), or Fingers.
Heck, Fingers was doing 2-3 inning saves 4 times a week! How soon we forget.
And Craig Kimbrell may belong in that group now. He had a season where he struck out more than half the batters he faced, then came close to that again the next year! Who has ever done that?
I'm glad you mentioned those closers(starters at one time as well) in this discussion, as well as some of the all time greats from yesteryear.
It is far too easy for us to see things through a modern lens and not appreciate the differences from a historical perspective.
Good stuff... Thanks for posting it.
JH Here lies the difference between Koufax in 65, 66 and Pedro in 99,00.
Complete games Koufax-27 and 27
Pedro-5 and 7
Strikeouts Koufax-382 and 317
Pedro 313 and 284
Shut outs Koufax-8 and 5
Pedro 1 and 4
WHIP Koufax .855 and .955
Pedro >923 and .737
Close call but Sandy gets my nod because of his sheer overall dominance, workload, run support( or lack of). 27 complete games in each of the compared years. Wow, if he had Pedros bullpen maybe he would have lasted a lot longer, And lets not talk about the no hitters or Game 7 when with his arm literally hanging, couldn't throw a curve because of the pain he just reared back and won with nothing but fastballs. Never to be seen again. This takes nothing from Pedros work, just that he comes up a wee bit short.
Bob Gibson is yet another candidate. Pedro had the lowest whip in the history of baseball one of those years! The best WHIP EVER for a season. Just over .7, that is unheard of domination.
Great post, read it today.
Feel is something so overlooked. The culture of baseball has us believing that every player is a visual learner, we talk about "feel" but we never implement it.
To throw a baseball from 60'6, change speeds, move it, etc... is difficult to say the least.
We devote a lot of time with our athletes training feel, we also test each to determine their method of learning. You probably aren't surprised to learn that many athletes are kinesthetic learners (some studies show general population is 65% visual learners), however, that's not the case in my experience.
My suggestion, test your athletes! To individualize a program it's mandatory, if not, the program isn't individualized.
Here's a post I wrote several months ago, it will give you insight to how we train and its a great way to help pitchers get away from blaming the inability to throw strikes on "mechanics".
How does that pertain to the topic? Did you train one of the pitchers mentioned in this thread?
Did you read the article? Inside the article Pedro discusses he could feel the difference between balls.
Being a PG guy, I'm sure you're familiar with Tony Robichaux. That guy's the best I've ever seen teaching feel.
If you're referring to my post, I was simply referencing what we do. So, no I didn't work with Koufax
Sorry, hit return to soon.
I'm sure Ron Guidry could tell you a thing or too about feel, being a former Ragin Cajun.
So, to answer your question, that's how it applies.
Lantz Wheeler
How does that pertain to the topic? Did you train one of the pitchers mentioned in this thread?
Its the old "find a relevant excuse to make a post with a link to your business to sell something without paying for advertising" gambit.
How does that pertain to the topic? Did you train one of the pitchers mentioned in this thread?
Its the old "find a relevant excuse to make a post with a link to your business to sell something without paying for advertising" gambit.
How does that pertain to the topic? Did you train one of the pitchers mentioned in this thread?
Its the old "find a relevant excuse to make a post with a link to your business to sell something without paying for advertising" gambit.
Can you please point out what i was selling? Other than a free Youtube video that was included inside the post?
The one thing not being mentioned is the context of when these great seasons took place. Pedro accomplished his when the leagues were batting .270 plus and Koufax wjhen league averages were more in the .250 range. Lots of difference there.
Think too about how many innings guys covered for their teams in bygone eras. Koufax threw 300+ innings/year! I don't think anyone's come close to that since Nolan Ryan in his prime.
Palmer threw over 300 4 times and above 290 two more. Both of McClain's big years were well over 300. It was a much different game.
The batting avgs could also be a sign of diluted pitching. Lot more jobs today then yesteryear. Also you had the Mets and Pilots for most of that decade who were, how can I say this, horrible!
Never saw Pedro buckle a lefties knees with a breaking ball. Sandy buckled Mantles, who was batting right handed, with a FILTHY breaking ball in WS. Just sayin.
