PG scout notes (stats)

The amount of money spent to get to college baseball is so unreal when you sit back and think about it.  I have had a son go D1 and another who is committed to P5 D1.  Both of those could have gone for free if they had stayed locally and I know if we had not spent all the money we did on baseball since they were 5.  But what about the experiences.  Our vacations are baseball oriented and have been for 20 years.  My sons have been blessed to have played on some great teams.  I have never paid for lessons for either of my three sons.  I have never paid for a PG showcase and that is why neither had a rating. We paid for 2 college camps which were a waste other than they were able to get offers while at the camp.  I have used the find a player aspect of PG for many tournaments and paid nothing or very little to play in those tournaments.  (helps to have two lhp's)  My youngest played in his fourth consecutive 17U WWBA tournament.  Played with a team from NJ when he was 14 and pitched a great game against the team that ended up winning it all.  Shutout through 5.  PG was very instrumental in my youngest getting recruited and his ultimate commitment.  He has pretty much lived in Atlanta this summer.  PG does so many things great>  WWBA on it's worst day is still the best.  I definitely don't agree with everything and I think it is a business, which leads to the part I have a problem with, but it is a very successful business and if I owned it I would probably do the same things I don't like because it takes care of their paying customers.

This summer my son could have easily said I just want to stay home and do what normal teenage kids do but he didn't.  Chose to play on two high level teams and played almost every day in June and first week of July.  Is home this week working on a summer class and is playing Legion.  We do what we can afford and I have never seen the need to do a showcase.  It probably cost him some initial looks because he did not have a rating but his play made up for it.

For those who want to complain about the outer fields and the weather at WWBA.  My son pitched last year at a field 45 mins from LP and there were 20 scouts there.  He also pitched twice during the night.  The 17U WWBA he pitched at 14 started at 1:45 AM.  I thought what a waste of time.  Nobody will be here but it will still be a great experience and a good test of what he has when I knew who he was pitching against.   30 scouts were there.  Son got on some radars that night because of his play.  Last year, he pitched to start 16U WWBA and game started at 12:45 AM.  Almost all the SEC and half the ACC were there and most stayed the entire game.  If you are playing, they will be there.

Thank you PG for the ride.  We only have a few tournaments left.  I can't imagine not being at LP in the summer.  Sorry for the long post.  But PG is a great instrument in the process and the greatest instrument in my son's recruitment.  He was blessed to pitch against Team Elite Prime and Canes National in a 6 day period at the beginning of the summer.  Lost both but pitched very well.  Great preparation for SEC baseball in 2020 and why he chose to play the full schedule this summer. 

PitchingFan posted:

The amount of money spent to get to college baseball is so unreal when you sit back and think about it.  I have had a son go D1 and another who is committed to P5 D1.  Both of those could have gone for free if they had stayed locally and I know if we had not spent all the money we did on baseball since they were 5.  But what about the experiences.  Our vacations are baseball oriented and have been for 20 years.  My sons have been blessed to have played on some great teams.  I have never paid for lessons for either of my three sons.  I have never paid for a PG showcase and that is why neither had a rating. We paid for 2 college camps which were a waste other than they were able to get offers while at the camp.  I have used the find a player aspect of PG for many tournaments and paid nothing or very little to play in those tournaments.  (helps to have two lhp's)  My youngest played in his fourth consecutive 17U WWBA tournament.  Played with a team from NJ when he was 14 and pitched a great game against the team that ended up winning it all.  Shutout through 5.  PG was very instrumental in my youngest getting recruited and his ultimate commitment.  He has pretty much lived in Atlanta this summer.  PG does so many things great>  WWBA on it's worst day is still the best.  I definitely don't agree with everything and I think it is a business, which leads to the part I have a problem with, but it is a very successful business and if I owned it I would probably do the same things I don't like because it takes care of their paying customers.

This summer my son could have easily said I just want to stay home and do what normal teenage kids do but he didn't.  Chose to play on two high level teams and played almost every day in June and first week of July.  Is home this week working on a summer class and is playing Legion.  We do what we can afford and I have never seen the need to do a showcase.  It probably cost him some initial looks because he did not have a rating but his play made up for it.

For those who want to complain about the outer fields and the weather at WWBA.  My son pitched last year at a field 45 mins from LP and there were 20 scouts there.  He also pitched twice during the night.  The 17U WWBA he pitched at 14 started at 1:45 AM.  I thought what a waste of time.  Nobody will be here but it will still be a great experience and a good test of what he has when I knew who he was pitching against.   30 scouts were there.  Son got on some radars that night because of his play.  Last year, he pitched to start 16U WWBA and game started at 12:45 AM.  Almost all the SEC and half the ACC were there and most stayed the entire game.  If you are playing, they will be there.

Thank you PG for the ride.  We only have a few tournaments left.  I can't imagine not being at LP in the summer.  Sorry for the long post.  But PG is a great instrument in the process and the greatest instrument in my son's recruitment.  He was blessed to pitch against Team Elite Prime and Canes National in a 6 day period at the beginning of the summer.  Lost both but pitched very well.  Great preparation for SEC baseball in 2020 and why he chose to play the full schedule this summer. 

I mean no disrespect at all, but your experience is not typical.  Your sons are in the fortunate/talented/blessed 0.1%.  I'm sure they worked hard to develop their skills and I think it's great PG worked out well for them.  I've had fun at the WWBAs my son attended and I look forward to them when summer rolls around.  But multiple scouts don't show up to see my son pitch.  For literally thousands of kids who play PG tournaments every year, their experience will be very different than what you describe--not bad, but different.  Most parents need to evaluate PG based on that typical experience.  And PG's business depends on those typical kids, because there aren't enough players at your sons' level to support PG's business model.

I'll say again:  my point is NOT to bash PG (or you, PitchingFan--I hope it doesn't sound as though I am doing so).  I just think parents and players need to know what they are (and aren't) going to get for the money they spend, so they can decide if the value proposition works for them. 

I'm going to somewhat echo Chico's last post. I’ll add my two cents after following this for a while, and having PM’d GaryMe right after the original post that I agreed with his take (and, more importantly, frustration at some level). I will note that I have not agreed with some that has been said since, and certainly not with any of the name calling etc., but I definitely understand the frustration involved and the pressure that is felt when a parent is not very experienced with the process and/or going through it for the first time. I also don’t feel PG is doing anything unethical or “shady” in any way.

I think one place where the struggle is real is for the parents of a “pretty good” player. I see a LOT of posts here from parents, coaches, players, and former players who are, or are involved with, the stud-caliber individual(s) who get the invites to the elite teams/events/tournaments, many of whom were identified early through either talent or connections or both, which has enabled these kids to gain some advantages – and not typically unfairly I might add. It’s just the way it is. I’m sure many of you have read the book “Outliers: The Story of Success” by Malcolm Gladwell which explores this idea in depth. I could go on but the bottom line is that I get that baseball recruiting is a big business these days, and that’s ok. However, I don’t know what the solution is for having this business develop a model that is more than a “one size fits all” (I might be on to something here!). I can guarantee that, as the parent of a player pursing the D3 path, had I had a better idea that this would be the goal a few years ago I would have made some considerably different decisions when it comes to where my money and time was spent. The thing is, for the most part it seems to me that everyone, including the reliable objective assessment sources, sort of starts at the top level as a goal and works their way down as time goes along. I guess this is a completely natural progression since one can’t predict what puberty, work ethic, injuries, etc. might produce but it’s a confusing and different process for every situation at best. Add to that some folks touting scholarship possibilities and accolades to the dad (unfamiliar with the process) of a 10 year-old and it’s like dangling a raw steak in front of a starving wolf!

I’ve mentioned in other posts that my 2019’s situation with his summer team has not been ideal. It’s one of the big-name organizations local installments and my “pretty good” player has always been on one of the B teams. I’ve felt from time to time that it is very likely that his team, and teams like it, are what fund the “elite” squad’s trips to the big tournaments, that my son will never get a taste of, but he chose that path because he likes his team and coaches. This was a decision he made and I don’t think it’s regrettable. The point being, there are many more players like my son than like the studs and I’m quite sure the travel organizations, recruiting services, showcase companies, etc. know it. It’s just part of the deal but it’s a difficult position at times. It would almost be better to know your kid isn’t ever going to play at X level but at 12-13-14-15 years old, it’s pretty difficult to ascertain for a “pretty good” player so parents just keep chasing it as long as the kid wants to play.

Don’t get me wrong, I have enjoyed this process immensely and wouldn’t give back any of the trips or moments that we’ve spent together. These are the things that have contributed to the man our son will become. I just wanted to chime in that I understand the original intent of the post, or at least the frustration involved.

I agree with you Chico to some extent.  When my son was there as a 14U they were not there to see him.  They were there to see FTB.  Even last year at 17U, they were not there to see him but he took advantage of what he was given.  He had a great game hitting in one game, hit one halfway up light poles at LP and then pitched a complete game against a team that had a kid throwing 96.  You have to take advantage of the opportunities you are given.  No.  Large number of scouts will not be at every game.  But as has been said.  If you do not go to WWBA, you will not get seen by the scouts there.  I don't think I have ever been to a game at WWBA that there were zero scouts at and my sons have played with some great teams and some not so great teams.  You also have to do your part and make sure scouts know where and when you are playing.  Don't depend on PG to do that for you.  We sent out 35 emails last year before every tournament telling coaches where he was playing and when he was pitching.  Then we sent updates throughout the week.  Plus we also sent stats, I know some here think they are useless, but I  believe it gives the RC and HC an idea of how you are doing.  You have to sell yourself/your kid.  Some think that if you just show up at WWBA or PG you will get seen.  You have to do the work.  Those coaches knew he was pitching in the middle of the night because we made sure they knew. 

I also agree that you have to have something to put out there.  If you don't, and I think there are a lot of players and teams that have no business being there, put your money somewhere else.  I believe PG is getting watered down.  It is a shame that the average velocity is now about 82 mph.  I remember with my older son that when you showed up at WWBA you were going to see great teams.  It is not that way anymore.  My son has only faced a few guys throwing 90 this summer and more throwing 70s.  

tequila posted:

I think one place where the struggle is real is for the parents of a “pretty good” player. I see a LOT of posts here from parents, coaches, players, and former players who are, or are involved with, the stud-caliber individual(s) who get the invites to the elite teams/events/tournaments, many of whom were identified early through either talent or connections or both, which has enabled these kids to gain some advantages – and not typically unfairly I might add. It’s just the way it is. I’m sure many of you have read the book “Outliers: The Story of Success” by Malcolm Gladwell which explores this idea in depth. I could go on but the bottom line is that I get that baseball recruiting is a big business these days, and that’s ok. However, I don’t know what the solution is for having this business develop a model that is more than a “one size fits all” (I might be on to something here!). I can guarantee that, as the parent of a player pursing the D3 path, had I had a better idea that this would be the goal a few years ago I would have made some considerably different decisions when it comes to where my money and time was spent. The thing is, for the most part it seems to me that everyone, including the reliable objective assessment sources, sort of starts at the top level as a goal and works their way down as time goes along. I guess this is a completely natural progression since one can’t predict what puberty, work ethic, injuries, etc. might produce but it’s a confusing and different process for every situation at best. Add to that some folks touting scholarship possibilities and accolades to the dad (unfamiliar with the process) of a 10 year-old and it’s like dangling a raw steak in front of a starving wolf!

 

This is a VERY important point.  I'm not a mathematician, but I think I read somewhere that at most tournaments/showcases, roughly 95% of players are not in the top 5%.  (It's true!  I'll post the link if I can find it later...)  

The "academic" showcases are one attempt to serve a slice of that 95%, and they seem like a good idea.  It would be nice if there were large scale D2 or JUCO showcases--my sense is most of those schools recruit locally, which limits a players' options to be seen--but I don't know if the schools's budgets would ever permit that.  

In the end, it's about being an informed consumer/parent.  And for most of us (myself included), becoming informed required some mistakes and some misspent funds.  Self-deception plays a role, too.  My rational self knew my 10-year-old wasn't going to be the next Nolan Ryan.  But he threw harder than any other kid in his little league or on his 13 year-old travel team, so part of my proud-parent lizard brain did entertain the thought that maybe he really was that good, even though he had my DNA.  Live and learn...

For us, not everything my kid does in Baseball is a means to an end.  We don't take every step in the journey thinking it is going to end up in a college scholarship.

My kid LOVES Baseball.  And as a position player where else can you face high level pitching except at big travel ball tournaments where the top teams play?  As a Dad I am thrilled when my kid's teams are stuck playing great teams in Pool Play, that means he will be challenged by great pitching and great defense.

We certainly cannot find that at home in Legion Ball, where the pitchers throw mid 60's to low 70's and 95% of the ground balls in the hole between SS & 3B result in getting on base.  Nor can we find it in the nearby rinky dink travel ball Tournaments where the pitchers throw low to mid 70's.

An excellent, thoughtful post from Tequila.

The fact is that few escape an inevitable frustration at various points as the player climbs the "pyramid" and the room at the top becomes more and more confining.

In a fundamental sense, the frustration that a long-term minor league player feels (along with his parents) at not being able to elbow his way up to the major leagues is every bit as real and palpable as that experienced at levels below that. Sure, at that point the parents are no longer footing the bill for the playing time; but, the minuscule compensation in an adult world and constant grind of the minor leagues while watching a few teammates grab the brass ring is grueling and nerve-wracking, nonetheless.

Progress in baseball is a tough, sometimes brutal, experience; and, it doesn't let up at any point. In fact, if anything, it compounds.  It's fraught with uncertainty and failures along the way. It's not for the faint of heart.

If not for the love of the game...and the fact that, properly approached, the arduous  journey can build a fine, capable person...I wouldn't recommend it.

As someone very new to this whole lifestyle, and yes I call it a lifestyle, I remember the day about 7 years ago when I realized that Baseball was about to take over my families life.  I grew up not being ALLOWED to play a sport, and resenting my father for it.  My wife was always encouraged to play, so we made a decision to encourage it 100%.  Then came the time when Travel Teams came looking to recruit my boys (age 11 or so).  It was another conversation we had to have.  This was a FAMILY adventure.  We moved forward.

Then I had a heart to heart with each of my twins.  Asking THEM what they wanted out of it.  I was told in no uncertain terms that they wanted to pursue it.  So I made a decision to do what I could to give them opportunities.  I'm not rich, in fact far from it, however I made the decision to make it a priority to give them the life experiences they wanted to pursue.  I work overtime and many long hours at a job I don't like (giving up on my dream job at one point) to make sure I could do it.  The point to all of this is we cant do everything.  We cant travel nation wide to play at Lakepoint (which they are dying to do).  Or go to PG Nationals (A Goal of theirs), Its just not in the cards, however I don't begrudge anyone who CAN do that.  I know what I would give for my kids to have their shot, and in my opinion if you as a parent CAN provide that then good on ya!  I'll cheer your kid on when I see them on the site and shake the hands of the men and women who run these programs allowing all these kids a chance.  Yes its a business but to me, its a service too.

So what will the future hold for my 2022's?  Who knows!  I just had my friend text me a picture of her 2019 CS Fullerton Commit from Lakepoint where he won MVP for the tourney.  That may not be my kids, but guess what?  That picture sure does motivate well, and if someone THEY KNOW can do that, then maybe they can too.  And that's all the push they need.  

Sorry about the TLDR rant.Just my two cents.

adbono posted:

RJM posted:

A lot of people spend too much money on sports too soon. Then they get upset with the venues when it doesn’t pan out. You can’t purchase talent. 

I’ll start with the disclaimer I played D1 ball. It gave me a head start on baseball knowledge. It gave my kids a head start genetically. I provided the instruction for my kids as their coach.

It wasn't until high school when it was obvious my kids had genuine talent that I started spending money. They both went to speed camp to become faster. They were already fast. My son had his swing changed after soph year of high school. He was already a good hitter. He had to have it beaten into his head with reps not to pull everything. There were times to drive the ball the other way. 

My kids played on travel teams before showcasing I coached (with other former dad college players) for minimal cost.** Their 17u (baseball) and 18u (softball) teams that traveled the East Coast were heavily subsidized. His scout league team was free/sponsored by a former MLBer.

When I see parents pouring out 5k per year starting at 10u I just shake my head.

** I met a dad who didn’t know baseball who found qualified dad coaches and put together a team for his son to play on. He was GM. He did all the recruiting, organization and paper work. All the coaches had to do was coach. 

RJM, you have mentioned in many of your posts that you played D1 baseball. Where did you play ?

This is revealing my age ... PAC 8. I was a very good high school player who was competent enough to get by at the next level.

CoachB25 posted:

I want to point out that most of the JUCOs in my area recruit my area.  If money is of concern, there you go.  Our JUCOs have quality teams that seem to have a lot of their players move on to D-I or D-II teams.  Two of the players I coach who made it to MLB went that route.  

Free Juco is a great option taken by so many players here in FL.

Add to that some folks touting scholarship possibilities and accolades to the dad (unfamiliar with the process) of a 10 year-old and it’s like dangling a raw steak in front of a starving wolf!

We (I coached) a lot of regional USSSA ball from 13-15. If we had long breaks between games I sometimes walked over to watch some 10u ball. Actually, I was watching the parents. It’s not hard to tell which dad is into it the most. He’s so intense his face is strained. I tried to engage these guys. 

Parents were paying $5,000 a year for 10u ball (individual instruction and team) because their kids were elite. They were going to play pro ball. The academy gets almost all of their 17u players on D1 rosters. From knowing one of the dad’s from 13u to 17u (he was a poster here) he told me only four kids survived from 13u to 17u.

Their 10u players were early bloomers the academy had got their parents to bite the marketing hook. When my son was ten (only three years previous to this experience) I paid $75 for LL and $125 for travel. Travel from 13-15 was never more than $600 for summer and $250 for fall. Through age fifteen I didn’t care if my son could compete with the rest of the country. I waited until he made varsity soph year. 

 I didn’t need to make money coaching the team. The kids were allowing me to continue to be on the field by coaching.

Some great posts.

As the parent of a rising senior who (1) has never done a showcase; (2) has played in only two PG tournaments -- one after freshman year and the 17U WWBA a week ago, my thoughts are:

• If you want to play at a local school or in a neighboring state, there is no need to do PG events -- you can get in front of nearby schools more efficiently
• If you are one of the best players in the country, there is no need to do PG events (I know a Top 10 ranked player who has done zero) -- they will find you anyway. If you throw 95, they'll come to you!
• If you want to play for a school far away (say, you live in the Northeast and want to play in the South, or in my son's case, he lives in California but was targeting a number of schools in the East), wow, PG provides a great avenue for that. I thought the WWBA was awesome! I think the kids in Georgia and the surrounding states are really fortunate. I wish my kid could play in more PG tournaments! For my son, it was an opportunity to get in front of schools that don't come to California frequently. It's an expensive trip, but it beats going to ten different college camps.
• The competition thing depends. Playing in CIF-SS Division 1, I don't think my kid needed to go to Georgia to play against good competition, but that may be a really important factor for some.

There are aspects of the PBR model that I personally like better -- sending scouts to high school games I think is terrific for the kids -- but PG puts on good tournaments and the big ones draw lots of college coaches. Who can complain about that? 

• If you want to play at a local school or in a neighboring state, there is no need to do PG events -- you can get in front of nearby schools more efficiently
• If you are one of the best players in the country, there is no need to do PG events (I know a Top 10 ranked player who has done zero) -- they will find you anyway. If you throw 95, they'll come to you!
• If you want to play for a school far away (say, you live in the Northeast and want to play in the South, or in my son's case, he lives in California but was targeting a number of schools in the East), wow, PG provides a great avenue for that. 
• The competition thing depends. Playing in CIF-SS Division 1, I don't think my kid needed to go to Georgia to play against good competition, but that may be a really important factor for some.

This^^^^

I'm glad the ship got turned the right direction here... the last several posts are very informative and real - touching on some key points.  

This from Tequila...

"... for the most part it seems to me that everyone, including the reliable objective assessment sources, sort of starts at the top level as a goal and works their way down as time goes along. I guess this is a completely natural progression since one can’t predict what puberty, work ethic, injuries, etc. might produce but it’s a confusing and different process for every situation at best. ... "

This point alone is eligible for lengthy discussion.  What coach or instructor is going to tell you there is no way your kid can develop into a better player?  What coach or instructor really knows just how much better for the large mass of young players who haven't fully developed physically or fully explored maximizing their potential skill sets?  If a kid shows passion and potential, shouldn't a parent want to allow him to pursue that in the best way possible (which, BTW, isn't necessarily spending a boatload of money)?  Shouldn't a coach or instructor encourage that path?  Many see this as exploitation.  I know of a few entities involved where that has probably become largely accurate.  But I also know a heck of a lot of baseball people who are driven primarily by their passion to help others pursue that same passion.  Yes, many have to figure out a way to eek out some money to warrant the time spent. Yes, many are business savvy and, by nature, look to make a profitable model out of their passion.  But, by and large, baseball people are good people driven by their passion for the game and PG Staff is certainly at the top of that list.  He clearly didn't deserve the BS he got here in recent years.

As a HS coach in an area where a fair amount of kids go on to play in college, I see, first hand, the full spectrum.  The key, IMO, is not to get too crazy too early and not to be stubborn and blind to the signs and hang on too late.  The game will tell you where you belong, what you need to do to improve your lot and, likely, what your limitations are going to be.  For those that show particular promise, there are resources to explore where that promise might go.  You can use resources that cost a lot of money or you can find resources that are more budget friendly.  Both are out there if you are willing to find them.   Most of our guys end up shooting at the right targets eventually.  The excess spending is usually travel too young or they have it to spend, so why not.  That's not to say that there isn't always one more event to consider .

Much of the extra spending is on regular instruction, which, IMO, has raised the overall level of play at most levels.  Again, this can be found at full retail or some really good bargains of value are out there.

Another point made here that is often missed...  the large majority of college baseball players play at schools in-state or neighboring.  Many others have academic focus.  With this in mind, the search and process can be greatly simplified and costs greatly reduced.

With my own son who played a full college career, we certainly leaned toward budget, doing a lot of local travel, a key PG event and Scout ball, which at the time was an unbelievable value.  We made it a point to mix in other stuff on most travel tourneys and we had a lot of fun along the way.  The PG event was certainly one of the bigger spends but very telling as to where he stacked up and very memorable as far as who he got to play against/hit against.

RJM posted:

adbono posted:

RJM posted:

A lot of people spend too much money on sports too soon. Then they get upset with the venues when it doesn’t pan out. You can’t purchase talent. 

I’ll start with the disclaimer I played D1 ball. It gave me a head start on baseball knowledge. It gave my kids a head start genetically. I provided the instruction for my kids as their coach.

It wasn't until high school when it was obvious my kids had genuine talent that I started spending money. They both went to speed camp to become faster. They were already fast. My son had his swing changed after soph year of high school. He was already a good hitter. He had to have it beaten into his head with reps not to pull everything. There were times to drive the ball the other way. 

My kids played on travel teams before showcasing I coached (with other former dad college players) for minimal cost.** Their 17u (baseball) and 18u (softball) teams that traveled the East Coast were heavily subsidized. His scout league team was free/sponsored by a former MLBer.

When I see parents pouring out 5k per year starting at 10u I just shake my head.

** I met a dad who didn’t know baseball who found qualified dad coaches and put together a team for his son to play on. He was GM. He did all the recruiting, organization and paper work. All the coaches had to do was coach. 

RJM, you have mentioned in many of your posts that you played D1 baseball. Where did you play ?

This is revealing by age ... PAC 8. I was a very good high school player who was competent enough to get by at the next level.

I am old too - SWC for me.

PG promotes the same kids relentlessly, their objective is about driving revenue for the company and they create as many ways as possible to do that as they can. Kumar Rocker throws 98 and played in XYZ showcase (which he never paid a penny for, BTW) and is committed to Vanderbilt. If I want to play at Vandy or a similar school, I have to try to do the same things (this is the trap people fall prey to), and in the process drop TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR.

You do not know what you are talking about.   First of all , have you ever met this player?   Do you know him?  because I do , he's a good friend of my son's .... 

I am sorry you had a bad exp. and feel PG promotes the same kids relentlessly.....  the problem is not PG they problem is that you did not do your homework and have an honest opinion of your sons talent . 

Tequila's post is a great one and I understand the OP as well.  As a businessman I don't begrudge PG at all, nor any of the people who have successful careers based largely on parents chasing a dream or trying to help their child fulfill a dream.  I happily pay for this for my child, as I am sure most others are as well.  I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that the PG business model and this entire industry though is funded by the parents of children who will never play D1 baseball.  It is the only way the economics work.  So, I understand when people get frustrated.  

The point that this can be done cheaper for the informed parent is of course true, but not what is actually happening in the real world.  

I pay for my son to play on a showcase team for the summer.  It is not cheap.  We play at events on college campuses and there are scouts from multiple schools in attendance.  The kids get exposure and evaluated and are given feedback from coaches.   After my son pitched this weekend he got to have a personal conversation with a school and coach who explained what he liked and did not and what he should work on.  We have 2 kids on the roster who are for sure Power 5 kids.  The rest, like my son, need to develop more to have any outside chance at D1 and are most likely D3 players.   I knew this when I chose to pay for it.  I made the choice so my son could see first hand where he needed to get to achieve his goal and so he can play top notch talent every weekend, because it is fun to do.  

He won't ever play a PG event because he is not the kid for that (unless something drastic changes this year).  We will likely do the high academic showcase with the hopes of a D3 chance and admittance to a great school.  

BUT, it took me a LOT of research and the help of this board to really understand the intricacies of this world.  

Let's not pretend that the PG business model and most of the travel ball and recruiting world revenue is not based on people pouring money down a pit that will never yield the desired results.  

Youth baseball and the end of the little league process would benefit from a much better education process for parents to understand the realities of travel ball, lessons and college recruiting.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 

...

BUT, it took me a LOT of research and the help of this board to really understand the intricacies of this world.  

Let's not pretend that the PG business model and most of the travel ball and recruiting world revenue is not based on people pouring money down a pit that will never yield the desired results.  

Youth baseball and the end of the little league process would benefit from a much better education process for parents to understand the realities of travel ball, lessons and college recruiting.  

Here is one big issue with this scenario... 

Every year for at least the past six to eight years (since after my son's process and having helped others in our program with theirs), I have offered FREE advisement on a one-to-one basis for any player/parent in our program and any player/parent in our youth leagues with regard to the recruiting process, travel ball, training facilities, local instructors, etc.  It became glaringly evident that there is a prevailing thought process among parents that if they don't spend money for the advice or instruction, it is not valid or reliable.  There is also a prevailing thought process that any instruction isn't as valuable if it doesn't come from someone with a MLB/MiLB professional background (MLB/MiLB), charging full rates, even though some college level instruction can be very valuable and had at a fraction of the cost.  The same thought process exists with regard to travel organizations.  Then, in turn, those same parents are the ones to complain about how expensive the recruiting process has become.  It becomes very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

After going to the big PG events for years, I can somewhat confidently say that there are 3 sets of teams that head down there. There are 60-70 top teams. These teams are very good, filled with studs, and a good amount didn't even make the playoffs (EC Astros, Dirtbags, Banditos, etc).

Then there are another 50-60 below average teams. Some of these teams are younger playing up, lack depth for a week long tournament, new to that type of baseball, and some are flat out not good. These are the teams where parents really have to evaluate if the money and time is worth it. For some it is. Some want to play against better competition, some want to get their feet wet. But if you are going there to get looks/win games I'd have a better look. Take a look at the best 15u programs. The 15u Canes would smash some of these teams that gave up 60 runs in 7 games. If you as a parent could see a 15u (albeit, the best) 15u team beating your team up, it is probably wise to save the money or find a new team. 

And then there are the rest of the teams. The middle 280 or so is an interesting group. There are some studs, but the vast majority are "pretty good" players as Tequila stated. This is where you tend to see a lot of frustration. A lot of parents in this group know their son is good enough to play at the next level, but it isn't materializing. Is PG worth it for them? For some it is, but they were either lucky enough to randomly be seen or did their homework beforehand and had prior contact with schools. For those with 79 mph fastballs and OFs with 7.4 60s, it typically isn't. I'm not marginalizing these players and saying they aren't good/not effective. But is this the right place to be doing business? After all, it is a business and a very successful business. That is a decision each family needs to make independently. 

I just don't like the PG hate. Did somebody take advantage of a huge market and form a successful business? Yes. Are they providing a useful service? Yes. Does it work for many? Yes. Obviously the write ups and stats are not going to be perfect, but those are for fun and part of pushing a brand. It is very expensive to go out and do the "necessary" baseball events (WWBA, BCS, Showcases, etc). But when Big State U wants to see you against said competition and you're not there, they move onto the next. Same goes for the other way. If you want to go to small HA D3 in the northeast, don't be upset when they aren't at Lake Point. 

Just try to enjoy a week off of work watching some of the best amateur baseball in the country. 

This is my final post on this topic. 

After reading most, if not all, the posts. There is some good information. I think most could agree that PG does a lot of good things. PG is a very successful business. Jerry is a good guy. 

But, back to the original topic, I haven’t really seen anyone dispute the fact that PG does a subpar job in reporting and especially stats.  As a paying customer, I would like to see an effort to improve this aspect of the business ( for my benefit as a customer regardless of whether it matters to scouts)