PG Jr National selections - WTH?

I'm a big fan of PG and I think they do things well, while creating great exposure for young men pursuing their baseball dreams.

But, yes, the PG Jr. National roster (which is invite only) has a lot of questions in my opinion. I will disagree however about PG rewarding players for playing in their tourneys or showcases. I just don't see that when looking at the roster...with the West Coast players at least.

All that said, I wish those young men that were fortunate enough to be invited the best of luck and hope they get the most out of the great exposure that PG provides.

WCP 

Link to the roster please?

Keep in mind that it is difficult for Perfect Game to invite players they haven't seen before without huge accolades from very credible pro scouts and/or college coaches.

Found the roster https://www.perfectgame.org/Ev...ters.aspx?event=5055

Not a ton of kids from WI/IL but the ones who were invited seem deserving.  Hard to argue about Ben Wiegman, for instance, kid throws 88 and already has a commitment to Louisville https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=480022

Understand that PG isn't scouring Varsity or JV stat lines to make invites.  They couldn't give one shake if a player has 18 errors (in fact, I'd wager a large sum that they don't have a clue how many errors any of the invitees do or don't have).

Those invites are largely on what they hear from the scouting and coaching community, complimenting what and who they've laid eyes on.

As the kids progress through high school, their rankings and invites change as it becomes more clear who is and isn't among the top in the pecking order.  Take a snapshot of the top 25 ranked 2018's and 2019's now and compare it a year from now.  The number 1 nationally ranked 2017 prior to that classes Jr. National is now ranked outside the top 100.  The more they see and scout, the more accurate it becomes.

If you have or know a kid that you really believes was overlooked and among the top 50 in the country, reach out to PGStaff on this website (Jerry Ford, founder of PG) and let him know.  If he can confirm the kid is legit, he may be able to squeeze him in if the kid wants to be there.  It is always his goal to have the top kids at the Jr. National and National, regardless of what geography they're from or what events they've played.

For 20 years now people have been complaining about the rankings, who gets invitations to events, etc. Then there is this thing called results, that create legitimacy.

Seems that the complaints always come before the results rather than after.

Not sure I understand the team part, at one point or another we see pretty much every top travel team in the country. It is always amazing to see how much talent comes from several of these teams.

Perhaps the easiest thing for us is to check out a player. We have many contacts s all over the country, including college coaches and MLB scouts. Give us a name and we will know whether people believe he is a prospect. That said, sometimes it is easier to disagree with players getting lots of attention than getting more attention for themselves.

SEC Hopeful,

I see you are a new member and a mom of a player in the southeast.  You deserve respect, but your last word... shameful... And your accusations just seem a bit hateful.  We want to know who the top players are, we don't care even a little where they are from, or who they play for, or anything else that people might think.  I apologize if this sounds a bit harsh, but we have a good reason why we invited every single player... Even if there might be opinions about better players with better stats that we are not aware of.   

The talent at the Junior National will be off the charts, just like the previous Junior Nationals.  Sure there are lots of deserving players that won't be there at this event.  We invite the players we believe are the very best in the country.  Not all of them attend, but many of them do.  There could be a few kids that aren't elite level prospects and there will be kids that will be first round draft picks out of HS.  In some cases we invite good uncommitted players above good committed players, because top college programs want to see them.  Nothing is perfect about it, we don't follow the stats for every freshman and sophomore that plays baseball.

If you would be kind enough to privately send me your list of top players that weren't invited it would help us and it would also help those players. If there are outstanding talents out there we want to know about them.  But believe me, there is nothing SHAMEFUL going on.  In fact, we are extremely proud of the event.  It has become very important to college recruiters and many of the players that attend.

If you have a son that is very talented, it is very much in his best interest that we know about him.  I just don't know what else to say.  But if he is extra talented we will find out anyway sooner or later.  These days, sooner is better!

But I would venture a guess that some of your "contacts" are the coaches of these very club teams whose players are being touted as highly skilled, coaches who bring their teams to you (sometimes multiple teams per tournament) many times over a year. They put money in your pocket. Would you at least admit that? The appearance is that these rankings are a little like a self-licking ice cream cone. You may not intend that, but that is a common perception.

I understand the concept that you can't rank a player you don't see, but you also have to be able to see the point that a 3-4 month long high school baseball season is a pretty big body of work and if these players that are being invited are not performing at that level for as long as that season is, perhaps they aren't the prospect everyone thinks they are. Perhaps there is an agenda by that club coach. I also know you cannot evaluate a player based solely on stats, but come on, at least admit that a player who makes 19 errors probably needs to work on the fundamentals...which in my view doesn't really equate to an elite prospect.

If you want to appear beyond reproach, open the events that rank players (i.e. Showcases) to all players free of charge. The cost associated with attending these events are extraordinary. Take the profit motive out of the grading system if you are "in it for the kids" as you say. You are a very large company and certainly could partner with others to defray the cost of hosting these events. The scouts/coaches will still come to see the large pool of talent assembled in one place.

This will be my last post on this subject, but I really think there is a lot of collusion among some of these club teams who play a lot of your events and the grading of their players, you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

SEC Hopeful posted:

But I would venture a guess that some of your "contacts" are the coaches of these very club teams whose players are being touted as highly skilled, coaches who bring their teams to you (sometimes multiple teams per tournament) many times over a year. They put money in your pocket. Would you at least admit that? The appearance is that these rankings are a little like a self-licking ice cream cone. You may not intend that, but that is a common perception.

I understand the concept that you can't rank a player you don't see, but you also have to be able to see the point that a 3-4 month long high school baseball season is a pretty big body of work and if these players that are being invited are not performing at that level for as long as that season is, perhaps they aren't the prospect everyone thinks they are. Perhaps there is an agenda by that club coach. I also know you cannot evaluate a player based solely on stats, but come on, at least admit that a player who makes 19 errors probably needs to work on the fundamentals...which in my view doesn't really equate to an elite prospect.

If you want to appear beyond reproach, open the events that rank players (i.e. Showcases) to all players free of charge. The cost associated with attending these events are extraordinary. Take the profit motive out of the grading system if you are "in it for the kids" as you say. You are a very large company and certainly could partner with others to defray the cost of hosting these events. The scouts/coaches will still come to see the large pool of talent assembled in one place.

This will be my last post on this subject, but I really think there is a lot of collusion among some of these club teams who play a lot of your events and the grading of their players, you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

First of all, you need to get off the "18 errors" thing.  That doesn't matter one bit!  An error for one kid, may not be an error for another, because the kid didn't have enough range to get there in the first place.

Second, my son Ryan attended the Jr. National, and it was one of the best moments of his life!  Great experience at the Metrodome in Minneapolis.  He wouldn't trade that week for anything.  (It may actually be his fondest baseball memory.  Ryan didn't have any connections to PG, and he is from Idaho!  How far removed from the mainstream is Idaho?  Do you think Ryan was invited because he was backdoored in by some connection?  Absolutely not! 

I believe that Ryan's example proves that PG does look for the most talented players wherever they are.

All of the above being said, I thought he should have been invited to the Sr. National, and unfortunately, he was not.  Why?  I have no earthly idea, but I don't think it was because PG was doing something that smells.

Do these kids on more high profile teams have a better chance to get chosen for these types of events?  I don't think there is any doubt. They get seen more, so they have a better chance to shine in front of the right people. 

My buddy always said, "you have to shine at the right time, when the right guy is looking at you."  Sometimes you may just be lucky that you performed when the right person was watching.  Obviously, it can go the other way.

When Ryan was a Sr., he did not get chosen for Area Codes, and I 100% believe he should have been.  I do think there was a little funny business going on, and he should have been chosen over a few other local kids.  I stand by that fully today, but you know what I told him, "Go prove that you got hosed!"  I didn't sit around and make excuses for him. 

If your kid plays baseball, he IS going to get shafted from time to time.  No matter how good the kid is, he will be treated unfairly at some point.  Why? I can't answer that, but I can tell you, don't make excuses and reassure your kid that he has IT!  Things will work out if you don't make excuses and reaffirm to him that hard work, perseverance, and tenacity will come through for him.

SEC Hopeful posted:

But I would venture a guess that some of your "contacts" are the coaches of these very club teams whose players are being touted as highly skilled, coaches who bring their teams to you (sometimes multiple teams per tournament) many times over a year. They put money in your pocket. Would you at least admit that? The appearance is that these rankings are a little like a self-licking ice cream cone. You may not intend that, but that is a common perception.

I understand the concept that you can't rank a player you don't see, but you also have to be able to see the point that a 3-4 month long high school baseball season is a pretty big body of work and if these players that are being invited are not performing at that level for as long as that season is, perhaps they aren't the prospect everyone thinks they are. Perhaps there is an agenda by that club coach. I also know you cannot evaluate a player based solely on stats, but come on, at least admit that a player who makes 19 errors probably needs to work on the fundamentals...which in my view doesn't really equate to an elite prospect.

If you want to appear beyond reproach, open the events that rank players (i.e. Showcases) to all players free of charge. The cost associated with attending these events are extraordinary. Take the profit motive out of the grading system if you are "in it for the kids" as you say. You are a very large company and certainly could partner with others to defray the cost of hosting these events. The scouts/coaches will still come to see the large pool of talent assembled in one place.

This will be my last post on this subject, but I really think there is a lot of collusion among some of these club teams who play a lot of your events and the grading of their players, you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

SEC Hopeful - PG is led by one of the most honorable people on these boards, and if he says he will help, he will.  Making the types of accusations that you did in your original post, are very uncalled for, and yet, he was still willing to help.  Unfortunately, you have chosen to continue your rant against his organization.

If I could give you a friendly piece of advice, take him up on his offer. He is genuine, and has the kids' best at heart. 

Don't go through life with a "my kid got hosed" attitude, because that will pass on to your kid.  If your kid makes excuses for himself, he probably won't make it. 

Another quick not of caution.  Writing posts like the one you started with, are in very poor taste, and continuing to do so, could very well be detrimental to your son.  People are here to help, and if you reach out with a more reasonable tone, your son will receive valuable information, help, and direction.  Continuing like you are, you may actually hurt your son's chances.  Trust me, the baseball world is really small, and if I was a coach, and you wrote an email like this one, I would scratch your kid off of my list.   Why? Because it sounds like you could be a real problem to deal with.

Someone wiser than me on this board said, "it's not where you start, it's where you finish".

Son didn't get an invite to Jr. Nationals, although his name was probably submitted since I was told to block out the dates.   Ok, I admit we were bummed.  Then, right after Jr. Nationals when those kids were snapped up by the larger schools, we scratched off a few of those larger schools from "the list" since it wasn't in son's best interest to play behind some of the "elite" players.

If your son is good enough, it will all work out.  Trust me.

SEC HOPEFUL,

There are teams that attend many PG events every year.  Teams that spend most of their budget on PG events.  Many of these teams never have a single player invited to events like the Junior National or National.

There are other teams that spend a lot of money to attend PG events and they are among the very best travel teams with the most talent in the country.  These teams have early round draft picks nearly every year.  Almost every player on their roster ends up drafted or going to a DI college.  Still we don't invite every player from those teams.  Yes, over the years we have discovered who we can trust and who we can't trust.

You won't find anyone more pro HS than I am.  I love everything about HS baseball except the information and statistics are nearly meaningless.  The HS player you mention that had all those errors might be someone we see at a different position.  And without seeing him play or understanding the circumstances it just seems like a lot of errors.  Derek Jeter set minor league records for errors.  

Now is it possible that we invited someone that has a better HS teammate that we failed to invite?  Of course, I'm sure that has happened before, but only because we were not aware of that player.

Bottomline is, there is no cullusion, dishonesty, or financial interest involving the National or Junior National.  We simply want the very best players we can get.  If your son is one of them we would want him.  We didn't get to where we are by fooling MLB Scouting dept's and college coaches.  And many of them are among the contacts we utilize in finding the top players.  And of course, those highest level travel teams help us too.  Of course we want to know who their best players are.  We would be stupid not to talk to them.  But there is never any deals or discussions about money.  I think most everyone involved in decision making knows how this works.

HS baseball is great, but most HS teams never see a scout during their season.  Hitters in some areas never see a 90 mph pitcher.  Some pitchers never see a prospect hitter.  What is there, roughly 20,000 HS's, not counting Latin America and Canada.  The HS games/teams that do draw scouts will almost always have a player that has already been identified as a prospect.  And that identification almost always happened somewhere other than a HS game.

Once again you might be correct in some player being slighted.  based on your user name "SEC HOPEFUL" and you being a mother, I would guess you feel your son has been overlooked by PG.  That is entirely possible.  But to slam others that we have invited kind of lacks class.  We definitely have a talent reason for every player that has ever been invited.  Once in a great while we find out that we were wrong, but there is so much talent at these events it goes unnoticed if someone has a bad day.

If your son is truly that talented, I think you should work with us rather than trying to attack our integrity.  I assure you it would be in his best interest.

SEC Hopeful, take a DEEP breath and check your private messages.  It's the little red circle near your user name in the upper right hand corner.

I have coached for travel programs that have gotten players drafted and into D1 and that played multiple Perfect Game events.   I can assure anyone that there are zero "back door deals" or collusion or "inside contacts" utilized.  Players have to step up and show through their talent, size & skill in multiple ways that they are legit bigtime prospects.   And they have to show they are legit bigtime prospects  according to actual MLB & D1 scouts, not according to Mom & Dad or the high school coaches.

There is nothing wrong with maximizing one's talent and ending up a D3 player or NAIA.  If you get every ounce of ability out of your God given talent that is a fantastic thing, regardless of where you end up.  And if you have legit D1 and/or SEC or even MLB talent, they absolutely will find you.  In fact if you throw mid 90's or run a 6.4 60 and/or have elite level hitting ability I defy you to hide from D1 & MLB scouts.  Unless you literally quit the game, end up on drugs or in prison, they will find you!

A player who is disappointed about not being invited to a particular event or team and then uses that disappointment as motivation to work even harder to improve is the type of player coaches want.  The player who points fingers about things not being fair and putting down others?  Not so much.  And please know that the parents are scouted too, not just the players.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Have a plan for your son to be seen by the people you want to see him. That may be at a PG event, it may be elsewhere. Certain events like the Arizona Fall Classic, USA Baseball National Team Championships and yes, PG WWBA (and other PG events) are key places to be seen. But don't fool yourself, those same coaches/scouts who will be at the Jr Nationals will also be a ton of other places this summer doing exactly the same thing, looking for talent. My kid didn't get an invite either, and I think he's pretty darn good. He did get an invitation to something else locally that I felt he deserved, and I know for a fact there were other deserving players (maybe more deserving than my kid if based purely on stats) not invited. Take each step with a grain of salt...one door closes, another typically opens. Breathe in, breathe out.

I will add:  I've coached even more players who have played D3 ball.  You can be easily fooled if you don't have decades of experience and perspective like Perfect Game does.  One kid in particular that I coached throws 93 from the outfield, has a 95 mph exit velocity, is 6 feet tall and if you watch him play you say "thats a ballplayer!"  He hustles all out and runs well, has great Baseball IQ but he's a 7.1 sixty runner.  He's got a great swing but struggled in Showcases vs 90+ velocity.   He's gonna play at a great D3 perennial National Championship contender and I bet he has a great college career.   

Now, this kid is impressive in every way relative to his talent level, but you have to understand how many other levels of talent there.   You play this kid vs your average high school ballplayer and you say, "wow, thats a ballplayer!"  You play him next to Mookie Betts and its like "yeah, there's no way."  You stand Jordan Adell next to Mookie Betts and you say "wow, this is interesting.  He's even faster than Betts....hmmmm"

I'll approach this from another angle: my son didn't do a single PG event.

Yet, when it came around to draft time, the kid who hadn't done an event was ranked - with a narrative (IMO, correct) - and during his last college start the PG representative at the game tweeted about what he had observed (turns out both starters were single digit picks).

I'm sure PG would have appreciated son attending its events, but it made no difference when it came time to identifying talent and getting the word out.

SEC Hopeful, welcome to the site.

I will just second what others have stated... PGStaff is a very high level person within PG and has shown nothing but integrity and helpfulness here.  Those who have experienced the high level PG events, as well as the resulting recruiting and draft activity, will testify to the legitimacy.  He offered you open input and help.  I'm not sure you realize the value of that extended hand.  I would reach back in a hurry.

Regarding 19 errors - almost always, the SS position will accumulate the most errors.  The number will always be high, particularly if he plays aggressively.  Add the usual imperfection of a typical HS field and that number can easily approach 19 on a season.  Absolutely meaningless in regards to the skill set and potential of a good young player.  I don't even know if the player in question is a SS but that would be my bet.  Aside from that, it would serve you well to pay less attention to the perceived weaknesses of other players.  Assuming your son is truly an SEC hopeful, he will make it there on HIS merit, not on the under-performance of others.

cabbagedad posted:

 Assuming your son is truly an SEC hopeful, he will make it there on HIS merit, not on the under-performance of others.

That is 100% correct.  It is not as if an entire generation of players is going to under-perform.  It is astounding how much talent there is out there!!!!

As a fellow baseball mom who also knows a bit about our local HS baseball and travel systems I would second the PG Staff on HS stats being nearly useless outside the area.  You only know that the 2nd baseman gets the error every time because they are protecting a pitching prospect from racking up the hits or that the Pitcher has a ton of wild pitches because the catcher is getting  good look and everyone supports the catcher getting that opportunity....If you are part of the small local community.  Outside of that the stats are not very useful.

There are way too many ways we can divert our attention when supporting the ambition of our players.  Here are the things I now hold dear after learning most of it the hard way:

As a parent my evaluation of my player is irrelevant. (period end of story!)

Support my son in being undeniable - if he is feeling slighted then I support his work to be undeniable.  Make that coach or team or whatever regret and or take notice

It's a long journey, if we are lucky but no one is spared the heart aches...better to get to some of them early and learn the resilience and lessons that all competitive sports figures have to learn and specifically our baseball players

From the great movie Money Ball - everyone gets told whether they are 12 or 42 they get told they are done.  As a mom, that will never be my job but I will allow my son to hear it from those that need to say it.  

I am sure there are many more lessons to be learned but regarding PG and the selection process...it's one way and if your player isn't going that way...he'll need to find another or quit.  It's just that simple.

Let me say as a high school coach, my definition of an error and the other coaches definition of an error is not the same.  It should be but it is not.  One of our arch rivals has a team with very few errors and high batting averages but their era's for their pitchers are very high also.  My pitcher's era's are very low and our batting averages are very low because I have a strong definition of errors.  We had 83 on the season because I believe there are very few infield hits, those balls should be caught so my players will have a lot of errors which is what you are harping on.

I can attest to PG doing their best to get the best players at these events.  My son is a very good high school pitcher who had a .000 era for the season with 112 strikeouts.  But he has not gotten his speed to where it needs to be consistently so he was not on the list also.  But going to a lot of PG events I know where he fits in the whole US.  Are there kids on the list that I know my son is better than?  Absolutely because he has proven it but I also made a choice not to recommend him for certain events because of cost.  We make choices as parents and PG does what is best for them and I will agree what is best for kids.  Not always the choice I would make or you would make but we don't make the choices as parents that others would make.  Send PGStaff you kid's info and I promise he will be honest with you. 

PitchingFan posted:

Let me say as a high school coach, my definition of an error and the other coaches definition of an error is not the same.  It should be but it is not.  One of our arch rivals has a team with very few errors and high batting averages but their era's for their pitchers are very high also.  My pitcher's era's are very low and our batting averages are very low because I have a strong definition of errors.  We had 83 on the season because I believe there are very few infield hits, those balls should be caught so my players will have a lot of errors which is what you are harping on.

 

Exactly.  How an error is scored varies widely from team to team at the HS level.  Our school uses the student team manager to score the games.  This year we had a new manager.  She was awesome but she lacked a little when it came to scoring the game.  She really understood the basics but lost it when it came to errors.  

Our SS could cover ground like you wouldn't believe.  Just about anything hit from 3rd to 2nd was playable with this kid.  He played in the Area Code games.  He was a PG Honorable Mention All American multiple years in a row.  On the All Central Region team, etc.  He has committed to very good D1 baseball school in CA.

Thing is if you go back and look at this years stats, he has 15 errors on the season.  Why?  Because our scorer scored anything that touched his mitt as an error.  It didn't matter if he was setup shaded towards 3rd and the batter hit a burner up and over 2B.  The kid would come diving across the diamond, and just get the tip of his mitt on the ball, but not enough of it to make a play.  This is a ball that would not normally be playable by a HS player with ordinary effort.  Yet she still would score it as an E. 

I feel it is important that people understand something.  The invite list for the Jr National is very small in comparison to what is going to happen.

Every year there will be thousands of players recruited by colleges.  Every year there will be 500 or so HS players drafted.  The Junior National might have between 150 to 200 players.  Sure the Junior National will have a lot of outstanding talent, but far from all the top players. It is a great opportunity for those that attend, but many that don't attend will play highest level college baseball and/or get drafted.

Speaking as a Brewers fan who is still snakebit from Yuniesky Betancourt displaying the range of a fire hydrant during the MLB playoffs in 2011, I can say that errors from a high school player is something to be aware of to a small degree but is pretty far down the list of recruitable characteristics.   If a kid doesn't have tremendous range & burst & quickness, they can't play middle infield well at the next level.

Take a look at that Devin Hairston kid playing SS for Louisville or LSU's SS Kramer Robertson, or that Nick Allen kid coming out of high school in California this year.  That is the type of elite athleticism you need to display to get on the radar for an event like the PG National.

A kid could have (for instance) 6.9 60 speed and tremendous hands and be one heckuva high school Shortstop and have a bright future ahead of them as possibly a D1 and even pro prospect but that doesn't mean they'll get a PG National invite.  

SEC Hopeful.  I really hope that you aren't one of "those parents".  I also hope you don't go around talking about your son to others in your area who may be able to get him into college ball like you did here....especially after the person you directed it toward offered a very good explanation and also offered to personally help if he could....yet you came back and bashed his organization even more.   Has your son even attended a showcase, PG or otherwise?   Does he play for a good HS team?   Has he had contact from any D1 coaches?   If not, how in the world would you expect PG to know him. Care to share some measureables?  Height, weight, velocity, etc?   They don't just pull names out the phonebook you know.  If a kid is on the roster....someone recommended him.  The fact you don't think a kid is good really is meaningless. I ran a 15U/16U team 5 years ago that now has 6 of those guys playing in college (5 D1's including ACC and B1G)....yet it was almost impossible for us to get coaches to come....because we weren't a part of a big travel organization, but the kids kept working hard and eventually landed offers.  Over the years there were plenty of kids that got recruited & committed to D1's before my son did that I didn't think were very good either....some are playing more than my son does...some don't play much and some aren't even on a roster any more.  I guess my suggestion would be to take a breath, step back for a minute and take in what's been said here.  You're not helping your son if you are throwing this kind of attitude around every time the subject of him compared to other players comes up. 

I PM'd the OP, their son wasn't eligible for this list.  They are upset on behalf of others, but I think they have now left.

I feel like the first post coulda been written about our oldest son 14 years ago - for sure, there were folks in our area that felt that way.

Even after the summer following his junior year in HS, a summer in which he was a top prospect at PG National (and yes, I'm sure there were folks who said, 'how could he be invited to something like that?'), was the most valuable RHP with a 0.00 ERA with the USA Jr. National Team playing in the Pan Am games, was an AFLAC All American, top prospect at a major West Coast showcase and recruited by nearly everyone and committed to Stanford....still after all of that, people said "big mistake by Stanford," "overrated" and "how could that be possible for a HS pitcher with a 7-5 record?"

Even after he pitched in the big leagues, a rival HS coach (to this day) tells a mutual friend that "he's just not that good - overrated."

Truth is, in the end he probably was overrated relative to being at the very top - he's only spent about 2 months in the big leagues - but don't you see how silly all of that is in retrospect?  Do you think PG was wrong about inviting him?  Maybe so, but certainly not on the scale you are thinking.

Take a deep breath.

First, I can see you're taking a lot of flack. Rest assured, though, there is nothing sinister going on. My son attended the Jr. National last year and there was no one there that didn't belong. Now, is it true that for every talented kid at the Jr. National, you can find three others just as talented or more? Yeah. Some simply won't be identified for a variety of reasons. Other won't attend, because...well, it is an expense. However, there is a LOT of talent there.

My own son very much enjoyed the experience ans was awed by the talent. Minus, of course, that, not being from the southeast (born in Georgia but raised in Colorado), he wilted in the heat and humidity and almost heat stroked on the mound. He's back for the National now, 20 pound lighter and there a week early to adjust to the heat and humidity.

While I get what you're trying to say, take in a little more info and you'll be satisfied that PG is a quality product and run with integrity.