Pickoffs: shame and humiliation. Balk Video

The trick then is to work on a 45 degree line between home and 1st for your left handed pitcher. We put a chaulk line down and drill it daily. 45 degrees is neither toward home or 1st but is the line that they refered to in this video.

I thought the 1st move was a balk. He didn't cretae enough distance from the mound to show stepping towards 1st.

Thanks for posting the video micdsguy.

That's why, as a base runner, lefties drive me crazy. They all balk, not just the way the video shows, in a lot of ways. Whether it be the back leg breaking or the front leg coming behind the rubber. It's a part of baseball, like Buck was saying, you can complain about it all you want but chances are you have a guy on your team who does the same thing.

-Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I thought the 1st move was a balk. He didn't cretae enough distance from the mound to show stepping towards 1st.

That plus if you freeze the video at just the right instant it looks for all the world like the free foot goes behind the rubber. I HATE some of the moves lefties are allowed to get away with.

Didja ever wonder why there aren’t more runners picked off at 3rd? Almost invariably, runners will get at least as large as lead there as they do at 1st, but its pretty rare when anyone throws over.

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
Didja ever wonder why there aren’t more runners picked off at 3rd?

You get picked off at first, you're in trouble.

You get picked off at third, you just cost your team a run.

-Kevin

Does that mean you think its harder to pick someone off 3rd?

not really harder,but usually a third baseman is giving the token hold.third baseman are a little quicker to get back into position.baserunners take their bigger lead with the pitchers stride,not usually the urgancy to vacate the base.as there is at first. just my opinion though.

ya gotta love a good lefty.

It would be easier to pick a runner of 3rd if the 3rd baseman was holding him on, which most do not.

quote:

Originally posted by RAH Lefty's Dad:
It would be easier to pick a runner of 3rd if the 3rd baseman was holding him on, which most do not.

Why is that? 1st basemen seem to be able to hold runners on and still cover as pretty sizeable amount of the field. Maybe its because a lot of 3Bs aren’t exactly what anyone would call the most nimble of players on the field, and maybe if there were a lot more players with the physical prowess of 2Bs, we would see more PO’s over at 3rd. ;-)

What I find questionable isn’t that there aren’t more runners picked off at 3rd, but that there aren’t even more than a pittance of throws over there compared to throws to 2nd, let alone 1st.

I’m sure I’ve seem throws over to 3rd many more times than I remember, but I don’t remember very many at all in all the baseball I’ve watched in the last 55 years! I’ve seen a lot of fakes to 3rd, especially in the last 20 years, but not throws.

quote:

What I find questionable isn’t that there aren’t more runners picked off at 3rd,

The risk factor.
If you make a mistake, the runner score's.
At 1st base they just get a stolen base.

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
Didja ever wonder why there aren’t more runners picked off at 3rd?

Scorekeeper,

I think the main reason that no one gets picked off of third is because the runner is not held at all. Stealing home is very difficult to do as long as the pitcher uses the stretch (even with the wind up, stealing home is hard to do).

If runners weren't held at first, they'd steal second a huge percentage of the time and be in scoring position. But runners at 3rd really have nowhere to go.

Holding the runner at third just creates holes in the left side of the infield and tempts the pitcher into making a very risky pick off attempt.

Mike F

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
I’ve seen a lot of fakes to 3rd, especially in the last 20 years, but not throws.

Scorekeeper, most of the fake pickoffs at 3rd are in situations where there are runners at 1st & 3rd and the pitcher thinks the 1B runner will try to steal. If the runner breaks on first movement, he's caught if the pitcher steps to third and then holds the ball.

You almost never see this work, but sometimes the pitcher will fake to 3rd, just to try and slow down the 1B runner's jump on a steal attempt.

Mike F

My Son plays 3rd. The only pick off his team practices is the catcher throwing down. Rarely will he get a throw over from the pitcher, as stated there really isn't anywhere for him (the runner) to go and 3rd needs to cover his position.They have recorded outs there last year but we had an excellent catcher, who now is in the Tigers organization. We will see what happens this year.

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:The risk factor.
If you make a mistake, the runner score's.
At 1st base they just get a stolen base.

I’ll agree that there is more to lose should a throw go awry, but that’s really not the whole story either.

If there’s only a runner on 3rd as opposed to only a runner on 1st, you’re correct. It’s a much bigger deal for that run to score, rather than just a base being stolen. But is that true for every situation?

FI, let’s say the runner on 3rd is there with no one out in the bottom of the 9th of a tied game, and the top of the order is up? I don’t know what the odds are of the run scoring, but I’d suspect it was a heck of a lot higher than the odds of throwing the ball away.

And, even if its just a runner on 1st, no matter what the situation, I’m pretty sure the odd of that runner scoring from either 2nd or 3rd is significantly higher than if he was only on 1st.

Mike F,

When I played 3rd, I sure held the runner on. Not in every situation, but I surely did do it. I see many 3Bs at least move over, if not actually holding the runner on.

You’re correct that stealing home is difficult, but is it a SB that should be the main concern, or is it the run?

In the early levels, i.e. just about anything prior to the full sized field where there’s lead-offs, wild pitches and passed balls are so prolific, I’d think a PO attempt gone awry was one of the least likely ways a run would score. Although the chances of a rotten throw or catch is much better in HS, they happen a lot less than wild pitches or passed balls.

If runners at 3rd really have nowhere to go, why bother putting the P into the stretch? It might be that a closer can throw as well from the stretch as the windup, but certainly not many starters or long relievers do. If they did, they’d surely be throwing everything from the stretch.

So, why take the chance of not giving the P the best opportunity to get the batter out, rather than farting around worrying about runners?

Would holding a runner at 3rd create any more of a hole than holding a runner at 1st? Heck, if I had to bet on who was more able to get into a good fielding position after holding a runner on, I’d certainly 3Bs were more able as a group to do that than 1Bs were. Then too, theoretically, every team has the best athlete on the team at SS, so who’s more likely to be able to cover the hole, the 2B or the SS?

The fake to 3rd with runners on 1st and 3rd is called the “Busby” around here, and is one of the most irritating plays for the players and fans there is. Its such a pitiful attempt at trickery, every one hates it!

This might seem odd, but its true. During my time scoring HS games, over 120 games, I saw the P either balk, drop the ball on the fake to 3rd, or throw the ball away at 1st, at a rate of at least 50 to 1, to the number of times they got the runner at 1st. its just a really tough play to watch. ;-)

Floridafan,

I don’t know if you’ve ever played 3rd or caught, but I’ve done both and can tell you, picking off a runner at 3rd is far harder for a C than picking one off of 1st, or even 2nd. That throw is an absolute killer to make accurately because it always has to be made with the runner in the way, and sometimes the batter.

IMHO, one thing’s for sure. The chances of a P making a bad throw to 3rd on a PO attempt is far less than the catcher.

Here’s the thing. Its even attempted so few times, the proof that its a bad thing to do is nothing but anecdotal. That means it’s a topic well suited for “discussion” among fans. LOL!

Scorekeeper, you cover a lot of ground here...I'm going to see if I can both answer and correctly format this...

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
I see many 3Bs at least move over, if not actually holding the runner on.

You’re correct that stealing home is difficult, but is it a SB that should be the main concern, or is it the run?

My point is that the only reasons to hold a runner are 1. to keep him from stealing or 2. to keep him from taking extra bases on a hit. I don't think either applies to a runner on 3rd, so I would never "hold" that runner.

quote:

If runners at 3rd really have nowhere to go, why bother putting the P into the stretch? It might be that a closer can throw as well from the stretch as the windup, but certainly not many starters or long relievers do. If they did, they’d surely be throwing everything from the stretch.

We leave it up to the pitcher to decide what he is more comfortable with. But, on the rare occasion that we are worried that home might be stolen (very fast, aggressive runner at 3rd with a very slow wind up pitcher), we have him pitch from the stretch (or, for some pitchers, a slightly modified wind up).

quote:

So, why take the chance of not giving the P the best opportunity to get the batter out, rather than farting around worrying about runners?

Very little difference in effectiveness from wind up to stretch (or else he probably isn't pitching to begin with). Most of the time, our pitchers use the wind up.

quote:

The fake to 3rd with runners on 1st and 3rd is called the “Busby” around here, and is one of the most irritating plays for the players and fans there is. Its such a pitiful attempt at trickery, every one hates it!

What is the origin of the name "Busby?" Anyway, nobody likes it, but it is useful somnetimes. For us, it really isn't a fake pick off (we never hold the runner, right?). We only use it if we think the 1B runner is going on the pitch. If he breaks on first movement (as if he was the only baserunner), we pick him off. The fact that we show it, will slow down a 1st & 3rd runner a little (he'll have to wait and make sure we aren't faking to 3rd) for the rest of the game. Without a good jump, we increase our chance to get him at 2nd.

I hope that makes some sense.

Mike F

quote:

Originally posted by Mike F:Scorekeeper, you cover a lot of ground here...I'm going to see if I can both answer and correctly format this...

Isn’t that why we’re all here? LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike F: My point is that the only reasons to hold a runner are 1. to keep him from stealing or 2. to keep him from taking extra bases on a hit. I don't think either applies to a runner on 3rd, so I would never "hold" that runner.

Now that’s a subject that might be fun to debate. I’ve honestly never thought a great deal about it, but kinda have the idea that its done to keep a runner from getting a jump, for any reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike F:We leave it up to the pitcher to decide what he is more comfortable with. But, on the rare occasion that we are worried that home might be stolen (very fast, aggressive runner at 3rd with a very slow wind up pitcher), we have him pitch from the stretch (or, for some pitchers, a slightly modified wind up).

Very little difference in effectiveness from wind up to stretch (or else he probably isn't pitching to begin with). Most of the time, our pitchers use the wind up.

Its interesting how often the coach’s philosophy is the one that wins out. Of course it has to, but I had to laugh when I saw you say it was up to the P, but….

To be honest again. I never really thought much about it at all, until I was watching a ball game on TV with my friend who had been a PC with the Dodgers. The bases were loaded, and the P’ I don’t remember who it was, went into the stretch. I thought my friend was gonna have a heart attack! I mean he actually got mad.

When I asked him what was the big deal, he asked me the 1st question and I knew I was in trouble.

“What’s the most important thing a pitcher has to do, no matter what the situation?”

Like a fool, I said, “To keep runs from scoring.”

“HORSE****!” “Its to get batters out!”

Like a fool again, I said, “That’s what he’s doing,”

“DOUBLE HORSE****!” “He’s out there fartin’ around thinking more about that moron on 3rd who ain’t gonna go nowhere, than that guy up there with bat in his hand!”

Foolish me, “You’ve got to be kiddin’!” “The guy’s a freakin’ ML pitcher, he should be able to pitch just as well out of the stretch as the windup!”

“And what makes you think a ML pitcher can do that?” “If they could really throw just as well from the stretch, why in Hell are they all, except the guys who do nothing but close, using the windup?” “If there wasn’t an advantage, believe me, nobody would ever do it!”

While I was being castigated, this pitcher went to 3-1, then threw a fat FB to the hitter who promptly single to drive in 2 runs. I guess that even though the chances of that happening were very slim, the Baseball Gods wanted to teach me something, then punctuate it, so I just took the whuppin’ and have remembered it ever since. That’s been over 10 years now, but he still gets a hoot out of lettin’ me know how stupid I used to be. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike F:What is the origin of the name "Busby?" Anyway, nobody likes it, but it is useful somnetimes. For us, it really isn't a fake pick off (we never hold the runner, right?). We only use it if we think the 1B runner is going on the pitch. If he breaks on first movement (as if he was the only baserunner), we pick him off. The fact that we show it, will slow down a 1st & 3rd runner a little (he'll have to wait and make sure we aren't faking to 3rd) for the rest of the game. Without a good jump, we increase our chance to get him at 2nd.

At one time I was given what seemed like a reasonable explanation of where it came from, but I’m afraid I’ve forgotten. Do you guys call it that too?

Well, all I can say is, if you get more than 1 runner every 4 years, you’re doin’ better than our school did, so I sure won’t say it doesn’t work. Just out of curiosity, how many runners do your guys get in an average season?

In 4 years, our team’s P’s picked off 33 runners total, and I guarantee you that most of those runners weren’t the best base runners ever. ;-) But even at that, the few times I counted throws from the P’s to bases, I have to guess that’s 33 PO’s for at least 2,000 throws, and for sure, more than 33 errors were made.

Mike, you made wonderful sense. I’m glad you took the time to do it!

Score,

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
That’s been over 10 years now, but he still gets a hoot out of lettin’ me know how stupid I used to be. ;-)

Thank goodness you didn't tell him that the 3B should be holding the runner! JK

quote:

Well, all I can say is, if you get more than 1 runner every 4 years, you’re doin’ better than our school did, so I sure won’t say it doesn’t work. Just out of curiosity, how many runners do your guys get in an average season?

We don't Busby too many, but I would say maybe 2 or 3. But, I believe that we have slowed potential stealers down a bit. I have no way of knowing how many.

Mike F

quote:

Originally posted by Mike F:
We don't Busby too many, but I would say maybe 2 or 3. But, I believe that we have slowed potential stealers down a bit. I have no way of knowing how many.

Mike,

Based on just the fact that you’re trying to slow down potential stealers, not necessarily pick them off, allow me to share another story from my friend’s experiences.

I had gone over to his house after a particularly upsetting game I’d seen my son pitch, where the coach had him make at least 20 throws over in a single inning, just to hold a kid who was easily the most prolific base stealer in the area that year.

What made me more mad than anything was, our P’s had done such a poor job of just holding runners on, and our P’s had such a poor record of throwing anyone out even if the P’s did hold them on, there was no way to stop this kid. In fact, after all those throws over, he eventually made it to 2nd when a throw hit him on the knee and went into the dugout. Then the **** started all over again at 2nd!

After listening to me rant and rave, he handed me a fresh brew and told about when he and Satchel Paige were on the same team, at the very end of Satch’s career. They were on a minor league team, and the manager had imposed on Paige to work with the young P’s on holding runners on.

He took all the youngsters out to the mound, then told them to watch carefully how they could most effectively hold a runner on. He got a ball, went to the set position, glanced over, then stepped off. After that, he went into the locker room to get a drink of his favorite whiskey.

As my friend was telling me that story, he was laughing so hard tears were running down his face, but when he was done, he said there was absolutely no better or easier way than that. ;-)

I think its great that you don’t try to throw a bunch of numbers out there to try to support your thesis. You feel strongly enough that it’s a benefit so its worth your while, and that’s good enough for me.

One of the things very difficult to make many valid observations about base running is, there’s really not enough data to go on to really come to valid conclusions. So many things enter into the equation, its difficult.