Pitch Clocks

My 2015 RHP works fast. The infielders behind him love it. He pressures the hitters. I like the idea if it will speed up the hitters. All of the glove adjusting and delays make the game slow and boring...that's why the ratings for MLB stink on TV. Speed the game up within reason, refine replay and adapt to the 21st century.

Originally Posted by Shoveit4Ks:

My 2015 RHP works fast. The infielders behind him love it. He pressures the hitters. I like the idea if it will speed up the hitters. All of the glove adjusting and delays make the game slow and boring...that's why the ratings for MLB stink on TV. Speed the game up withing reason, refine replay and adapt to the 21st century.

As a scorer and a fan, I love pitchers who work fast too, but ya gotta be careful not to mix ML/MiL ball with amateur ball. I’m gonna guess the primary reason the amateur game is slow is that coaches insist on calling pitches which doesn’t happen much at all in MLB. Batters adjusting gloves after every pitch, which happens in both, is a close 2^nd. Holding runners has changed a great deal in the last decade and is rapidly closing on the #1 spot.

I checked to see how PO throws, SBAs, and SBs have one over the years. Assign whatever time value you want to a PI throw, it adds a significant amount of time to a game, and how much it controls the running game is debatable.

There were a few threads earlier this year on rules and baseball vs. other sports and the future where this came up.  I am a proponent, it will keep the game moving and actually force the action to some degree.

I also think a few less ads between innings wouldn't hurt either...but that is whistling in the dark.  Getting games back to 2:30 to 2:40  or so should be a big goal of the next commissioner. 

My son's catcher/s (H.S. & Travel) call the games so we don't have that delay...my comment was primarily on the batters stepping out of the box and i guess there are some really slow pitches our there too that slow the game down. Most, i believe are ready to pitch once the sign is given. Good points.

I am not against the games speeding up.  I am against adding an actual clock to baseball.  There are already rules in place (see the other thread on this topic) that if enforced, would speed the game up.  The umpires and owners need to grow a set and start enforcing the existing rules rather than putting a clock out on the field to take away the decision making responsibility of the umps on the field.

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

…I also think a few less ads between innings wouldn't hurt either...but that is whistling in the dark.  Getting games back to 2:30 to 2:40  or so should be a big goal of the next commissioner. 

I used to think the same thing about the ads, but when I put the clock in my program to look at time between pitches, I found out that the time to change sides is pretty much the same for HS teams as it is for ML teams. I know it’s hard to believe, but taking more than 1.5-2 minutes is pretty normal. The time goes up somewhat significantly when there’s a pitching change involved because the new pitcher gets 8 rather than 5 pitches, but for getting 9 on and 9 off the field, 90-120 is pretty “normal”.

It’s pretty simple to see that the single thing that stretches out the game is runners on base. Many pitchers are 13-17 seconds between pitches when no one’s on but that increases anywhere from 10-15 seconds per pitch or more when there’s a runner on.

Suffice it to say that there’s a lot of time being wasted during the course of a baseball game, but until there’s a REAL will to make things better, it just isn’t gonna happen. L

Posted by bballman:

I am not against the games speeding up.  I am against adding an actual clock to baseball.  There are already rules in place (see the other thread on this topic) that if enforced, would speed the game up.  The umpires and owners need to grow a set and start enforcing the existing rules rather than putting a clock out on the field to take away the decision making responsibility of the umps on the field.

The actual clock has already been added with 8.04 and been there since 1955.

Sadly, the umpires really don’t have a lot to say about it. They’re told how to enforce the rules, and if they don’t do it the way they’re told, they get fired. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I was a ML ump, I’d do exactly as I was told.

I'm going to weigh in on clocks with a solid ......

This isnt really a new rule and all codes have some sort of variation...NCAA enforcement and stopwatch requirement for Umpires has been a recent POE....

NFHS 6-2-2c With bases occupied or empty a pitcher must pitch, make a play or a legal feint within 20 seconds of receiving the ball.

NCAA 7-5 20 second time limit is with bases empty only

20 seconds may sound like a short time, but if you count it out, (thousand one, thousand two) its plenty of time.....I dont expect myself or most umpires to make this call very often at all ...... if ever...

Its in the book and if it needs used its there........but if an Umpire is using proper game management skills, it most probably wont be necessary ....

Hopefully Matt13 can give us some more insight on the Higher NCAA applications.....

So to for a pitcher to intentionally walk a batter he only has wait about a minute until the umpire calls 4 balls in penalty for not meeting the play clock? 

ahh no, that's even easier......

NFHS allows an intentional base on balls simply by request of either the coach or the catcher. It is NOT necessary to “pitch out” for four balls.The request can be made at any time while the batter is still at bat. Upon request, call TIME and award the batter first base

Umpires should welcome the clock - it should not be their problem to nag about the speed of play on that level of detail.  NBA referees don't think about it until the buzzer sounds.  When they finally put clocks in the stadiums you can expect at some point for a buzzer or horns to be part of it like in the NBA.  So there will be pitchers in wind ups and BZZZZ and the pitch comes in. 

They should make it 20 from the time the previous pitch hits the catchers glove.  Again like basketball, one play leads to the next.  So if the batter takes Ball 1 the clock resets as soon as the ball hits the catchers mitt.  20 seconds to get the ball back to the pitcher and delivered again.  Catcher stands up and fires it back to pitcher, everybody stays put and the pitcher gets signal and delivers.  It will be Beautiful. 

Grounder to short, 30 seconds from the time the first baseman catches the ball to the next delivery.  Players will have to run off the field when plays are over, should take about 7-10 seconds.    The farthest dugouts are probably not more than 150' from first base.  Snap off a couple of quick throws around the horn and the ball is back on the hill.  Keep it moving boys.

The sooner the better.

When I wrote my scoring program, I added a clock just to see what was REALLY going on. The clock is automatically reset each time a pall  is put into play, each time the pitcher throws to a base instead of pitching the ball, and any time there’s a pitch not put into play. Although they’re stored to the precision of a tenth of a second, I rounded them off and grouped them so they’d fit on 1 page.

I’m sure you’ll notice a lot of times less than 10 seconds. The reason for that is I sometimes can’t record the pitch exactly as it happens, then will have to mark two or more pitches in rapid succession. Discounting anything 10 seconds and below would make sense.

Stats - I have no doubt your observations are honestly taken.  But I can't ignore the basic math of it all:

Thesis: Ave time to make a pitch in MLB is approximately 30 seconds.

Supporting analysis:

3 Hour game = 180 Minutes.

18 Inning changes = -36 Minutes

Game playing time is approximately 144 Minutes (180-36)

Ave pitches in MLB game is 147 per team or 294 per game.

144*60 = 8,640 seconds of playing time

8,640 / 294 = 29.4 seconds per pitch.

I believe I am being generous here since games are longer than 3 hours but the point is made. 

FACT:  Every second taken out between pitches shortens the game by almost 5 minutes.  294 seconds is 4 Minutes and 54 seconds.

Cut just 3 seconds out per pitch and the game shortens by 15 minutes.  3 lousy seconds per pitch is huge. Bump that to 7 seconds and we have 2 1/2 hour games again.  Not hard to do and the game would be sooooo much better to watch. 

Biggest No brainer and easiest to implement facing the game today.  But like replay they are overthinking and over complicating a simple thing.  It is more proof how great the game is that it survives the dolts that run it.

What I did has nothing at all to do with math or shortening the game. I was just curious about where the time really went. What I saw was when no one was on, typically pitchers threw the ball between 10 and 20 seconds from when the last pitch was caught, and when there were runners on, it wasn’t unusual for the time to double or even triple. What I also saw was that when signs were coming from the bench, those pitchers were “typically” 1-5 seconds slower.

However, I don’t see much of a difference at all when runners are on.

The factor that seems to have the most impact is runners. I don’t believe people really understand how many pitches are thrown with runners on. I find it to be at least 40% whether its MLB or HSB. So no matter what you or I may like to see happen, that’s where the lion’s share of the time is gonna be spent, and as long as pitchers control the running game by staring, stepping off or, or throwing over, and its successful, there’s not a lot of hope. L

Another time black hole is those damn batting gloves and another is pitching changes. I’m an Indians fan and I can tell you watching Francona use 5, 6, 7, or 8 pitchers in almost every game is like pulling teeth. Unfortunately it’s a sound practice and one many other ML managers are using. It hasn’t filtered down to the HS level much because there just isn’t the pitching depth and the games are so much shorter.

The bottom line is, there definitely are ways to cut down the time it takes to play a game, but I think the powers to be are being very careful not to interfere with the way the game’s played.

I do a lot of youth games, and the biggest waste of time (in my opinion) is the change of innings and then batters stepping out after every pitch.   During pregame I instruct the coaches to...

1. Have their catchers and pitchers ready or a coach to warm up the pitcher.  The pitcher will not get the full warm ups if the catcher is not there or the pitcher is slow to the mound. 

2. The batters need not step out after every pitch to get signs, fix gloves etc...

It only takes one time to call the ball in play when the pitcher got no warm ups or allow the pitcher to pitch and call a strike if the batter keeps stepping out.  The kids learn and adjust quickly and they don't build bad habits.

I have done 7 inning 12U 50/70 games in under 1:30.  And at younger levels the games often have a time limit  of 2 hrs for 6 innings 2:15 for 7... I rarely need to call a game because of time.  The games that run long are usually stopped because of the mercy rules.

I'm more focused on the D-I college game although I realize this is a HS site. When my son was in HS, he was an 8 second pitcher. The time between the catcher catching the ball and the release of the next pitch was ~8 seconds. It was nice when it happened. When the coaches called pitches, it moved to 20-25 seconds and ruined those games. He called his own pitches his senior year and in travel ball. His first three seasons of HS ball were painful as well. At least until we got to college ball and realized how good we had it in HS.

In college, I would think we don't push the 20 seconds with nobody on base very often but the game GRINDS to a halt with runners on base.

Typical scenario: 3rd inning of 0-0 game, lead off batter doubles. Next batter comes up, watches about 15 signs from 3rd base coach, catcher takes 15 signs from his dugout, pitcher then fakes at least three throws to second to see if the batter might be bunting (with 15 signs from the bench to catcher between each throw), pitcher thows a pitch, batter takes it, catcher goes out to talk to the pitcher, calling defense in, comes back, takes 15 signs from the dugout, 3rd base coach repeats his 15 signs, pitcher repeats the three fake throws to second and it goes on and on. After about 10 minutes you are litterally cursing the third baseman for not having better range on the leadoff double that started this mess and you realize they've only thrown four pitches.

Originally Posted by JMoff:

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

Supporting analysis:

 144*60 = 8,640 seconds of playing time

8,640 / 294 = 29.4 seconds per pitch.

Stats, I like math, but yours doesn't account for the time the ball is actually in play. A fly ball to the OF, a foul ball, a ground ball out, each can take 5-15 seconds (I'm guessing on that ), but figure the time throwing the ball around the infield, the next batter coming up and digging in. All that factors in. Agree it is 29.4 seconds per average pitch but the time between pitches is significantly lower when you're only talking about the time between when the ball is ready for play, in the pitcher's hand and a pitch actually happens. That is the delay bugging me.

I’m not sure why you re-posted the above quote, but since I never responded to it directly before, I’m gonna do that now.

What my program does is count every second between one pitch to the next, except for when a throw is made to a base with a runner on it because all I was trying to do was get time between pitches to the plate. luv thinks my program doesn’t account for the time the all is actually in play, but he’s very wrong. Let’s say the 1^st pitch of the game is a ball. As soon as possible after the pitch get to the catcher, I mark the pitch and that stops the clock on the 1^st pitch and restarts it for the next.

Now let’s say the next pitch is hit to F5.  As soon as possible, I mark the ball as either an out or not and that stops the clock and resets it. So the time for that pitch only includes the time from the pitch before until the ball is put into play. Now let’s say the next pitch is a called strike. As soon as possible after the call is made, I mark the pitch and that stops the clock and resets it. The time for that pitch includes all the time the previous play took, throwing the ball around, signals, signs, the pitcher cleaning his spikes, and anything else like a manager arguing the call.

That is my point exactly.  Ball is caught....20 seconds until the next pitch.  No more screwing around anywhere.  Get in the box, and here comes the ball.

I am thinking BIG here.  The only thing off the table is the inning switches.  All the rest is game play.  Keep the thing moving. 

The NBA is the model.  24 second clock resets at the end of a play (Shot) - same in baseball.  It takes less than 6 seconds to get the ball from the deepest part of any baseball stadium to the mound.  Getting it back in play in 20 should be no problem.  I am ok on a batted ball if you want to make it 25.  There are 54 or 51 outs in about 90% of most games. 

Strikeouts add zero time usually about 15+ game.

Grounders take less than 5 seconds - 15-20 game.

Fly balls take 10 seconds max.  10-15 game.

Misc. Outs - pickoffs, throw outs, Double plays, caught stealing probably add a few seconds each and a couple per game.

I'd estimate the total time a ball is "in play" from being batted is about 4-5 minutes of the 3 hours used to play any game.  Add it the home run trots and you might get up to 7-8 minutes.  The rest is time that needs to be squeezed.

Players will have to run back to the dugout - move back to position quickly...possibly jog a little. It will work.  2 1/2 hours should be the target.

Everything should have a clock on it.  Mound visits - 1 minute start to finish.  Manager steps on the field he has to step off in 60 seconds.  It is probably less than 100 feet to the mound so it is a 5 second trip.

Pitching changes 90 seconds from the time the coach asks for the change.  Jog the 100 yards in from the bullpen takes 15-20 seconds.  I don't care if you get 8 pitches or not.  Unless it is an injury - you are already warm.

Take out all the non sense, players hustling around and keep the ball moving.  It will be spectacular and it is soooo easy to make happen.  I think the notion that it IS that easy is why many folks just don't see it that way.  Everyone has reason why it can't happen instead of just sitting players down and saying, this is what it is.

First time a pitcher loses a ball to the clock or batter loses a strike - they WILL change.  It will take 1 spring training - max.  They'll complain for a little while and then they will get over it. 

I'll state my feeling on it again.  There already are rules in place that stipulate that a pitcher has 20 seconds to deliver the ball.  The problem is that umpires are not enforcing it.  

I don't like the idea of a physical clock in baseball.  It remains the only sport without one.  Keep it that way.  

If MLB was serious about speeding up the game, they would instruct the umpires to enforce the rules already in place.

bballman - I guess we see the problem the same and the solution differently.  I just do not believe that the umpire should be on the hook without a consistent and enforceable support.  Which is why it is not enforced today. 

Here is why:

Picture the NFL Delay of Game or NBA Shot clock violation depending on one of the officials actually having to take the time to hand count the 40 or 24 seconds.  And then when they make the call how crazy everyone would be when the TV network puts a clock on it and says - that was off by 2,3,4 or more seconds. 

It would be mayhem and everyone would scream for a clock - because it exists. 

Baseball rules were written back when US Grant was president and not on the $50 Bill.  Electricity did not exist to run a clock much less a clock to use it.  Let's update it ....just a little and bring technology on a baseball field up to what the 1940's or 1950's.  I think my GrandPa would approve. 

I do not buy into the notion that things should not change.  Baseball will improve it's pace with a clock but the game still will not end until the right number of outs are recorded. 

In my world there is never a clock for that only the one that keeps the pace moving so it happens faster. 

How about if umpires enforce this rule?  How much time could be cut out if the batters didn't constantly step out of the box after EVERY pitch?

How about if the umpire first gave a warning to either the pitcher or batter - Step it up so and so or I'm calling a ball/strike?  You wouldn't need a clock.  Just a warning, if the  batter or pitcher didn't comply, call the ball or strike.

Why shouldn't the umpire be expected to enforce the rules of baseball??  Because it isn't easy to do?  There are a lot of things they are expected to do that aren't easy.  It's why they get paid good money to enforce the rules and make judgement calls.

I just don't like the idea of a clock in baseball.

I don't like instant replay either, but if they are going to have it, why not put a clock on that??  How many times do you see them take 3, 4 5 minutes to make a decision on a call?  How bout if they have 1 minute or a minute and a half to make a decision.  If they can't decide in that amount of time, with all the HD, super slo-mo video they have today, it is too close to call - automatically go with the call on the field.  That in and of itself would save a lot of time.

Work within the existing rules, grow a backbone to get these guys to pick it up and everything will be fine.  No need for a clock.

Obviously, this is my opinion, but I'm sticking with it.  

I am for all of this.  Anything to make the game faster.  Starting with stay in the box is a great first step and should happen.  Putting the genie back in the bottle starts with MLB telling everyone it is coming.

I still think you can not have something quoted as timed in the rules - and not have a clock on it without having a enforcement nightmare - and thus it is not happening.  I'd rather not have a clock but I just don't see it happening without one so I am frustrated by it and want it fixed so there is no doubt.

Clock on Replay has to happen too.  MLB should have a guy setup to do in in NY the way goals are reviewed in NHL.  Takes 30 seconds and move along.  The Camera guy in the dugout has the feed to the Umpire in NY.  Get the call move along.

Faster paced games = better games.  Discussing the Mechanics of it - luv this board!