Pitch Count - What to do?

Your High School coach is right on the money. I have coached AAU in the summer after my High School season. I have a son that is your sons age he is an 8th grader and will be a Freshman next year. The problem with the tournament format is if your son is a stud pitcher coachs want him in that first game and them want to bring him back for the championship on Sunday. Thats one days rest and thats not enough. Forty game pitches then a game on Sunday is just too much. I would either throw my stud on Friday or Sunday but never both. Another problem is your son is probaly playing ss or another posistion on Saturday. How many tough throws will he have to unleash? Chances are just as good that he will hurt his arm on Saturday before Sunday. What I would do when I coached tourney ball is throw a kid Friday sit him on Saturday and play him in the field on Sunday. To play tourney ball and be sucessfull you have to have at least 7-8 pitchers. If your son is on a team that requires him to throw that much its time to either find another team or someone else needs to step up. One game Friday Night 7 innings. Two games on Saturday 14 innings. One or two games on Sunday depending on the amount of teams in the tourney. 7-14 innings for a total of 28-35 innings. Chances are only a couple of the guys are going to go the distance either because of pitch counts or getting in trouble. Your stretching it with 5-6 pitchers. We used to use 7 or 8 guys each tourney. Its not worth risking a young mans arm just to win a game. Especially at 14 years old. I have even seen some tourneys that allow a kid to regain all his innings after one days rest. We have seen a kid pitch 7 on Friday and 7 on Sunday. It really is crazy what some people do and what some parents allow.

I have to agree with your son's coach..... Way to high of a pitch count...

cong

"In baseball, you don't know nothing." - Yogi

I have personally seen a 9 y.o. throw 120 pitch CG on Friday and then a 140+ pitch game on Sunday (we shelled him). I mentioned something to their coach at te 70 pitch mark as it was obvious he was losing velocity and mechanics. The coach grumbled something about me worrying about my own team.

When I first started coaching high school early 70's never heard of pitch counts. The kid pitched when he got tired I took him out.common sense. I had a rotation and that was it. As the years went on the pitch count thing creeped in. why? Well because I guess the win win win thing and the common sense thing sort of clashed. for some it is an obsession for others it is a tool. On this site we hear pitch count numbers. It is not an exact science. Each pitcher is different. Of course coaches have to know there players. I had kids that pitch a couple of innings and the next day complain their arm was sore. then you had a kid who pitched a complete game and felt great the next day. Of course mechanics and technique have a lot to do with that and also body make up. I remember after a game a reporter coming up to me and telling me how many pitches my pitcher threw. I asked him how many walks and strikeouts he had. He had to check. Pitch count is a tool. Coaches have to know what there players are capable of doing. Easier said than done but a valuable concept.

My son is a 15 and his Doctor, yes, I said Doctor, not Coach, talked about 300 throws not pitches a week. The Doctor's advise is to count all throws not pitches. When you take into account warm-ups, pitches, and throws from the field. The number of throws add up.
My advice is to play on the best summer team you can find where the pressure to pitch all the time will not be there. My' son' s Au tem had 8 pitchers last year and he had just enough work.

Played and practiced everyday. My infielders sometimes fielded 50 balls a day with throws. do we start counting. Lets be honest the idea of pitch counts is to protect the pitchers at a young age. From who or what?

Will and Coach May have made good points.

Pitch counts are only a tool, and each kid is diff.

Remember when Nolan Ryan used to go out and throw 140 pitches one day, then on the fourth day go out and throw 120! Then again on the fourth day, he'd only get to about sixty before getting shelled and being taken out!

His BODY was telling him too much was too much! He then wouldn't be "right" for quite awhile!

You can't do that to a young guy and expect him to recover!

Obviously those pitch counts are for adults and way to high even for them, but the point is that recovery time is going to get increasingly longer, the longer this goes on the more chance of injury! And IMO fatigue is one of the major causes of injury to pitchers.

Remeber pitching is: Preperation - Performance - and Recovery and you simply can't shortchange any of them and continue to perform at a high level.

Give the kid a day off once in awile!

"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee

Chicks,
Have read many of your very good posts on this BB. I'll bet something in your gut was already telling you he needs to cut back. Spoke with a friend this week about his freshman son, who if he ever wants to pitch again will need T.J. surgery. The guy use to talk of his son throwing for his select team, 100+ pitches and coming back the next day to throw more. All to win baseball games when he was 12, 13, and 14...He is a big boy, but that still did not make it ok to abuse him.
Sounds like your son has lots of potential, don't let some coach screw it up!

T Ball

What are coaches thinking. throwing 100 pitches one day and throwing the next. Again I say COMMON SENSE. You can know everything about anything but if you do not use common sense it sort of negates anything.

As a travel and high school coach pitch counts are always a touching subject. I personally in fours have only two kids throw over 100 pitches. One was in the 16u mickey mantle western regional in new mexico 2001 and in the junior olympics 2002. Like someone mentioned before everykid is different. But if a travel team throws a kid a lot and by time he get to his h.s. team and is no longer as good then the h.s. coach isn't going to allow his kids to play for that coach. These kids are young and who cares about who wins an offseason tournament. Its not about padding your stats as a coach. It should be about getting these kids experience and exposurer. If you put together a good enough team than you shouldn't have to rely on just one pitcher and you should have enough pitchers to get through a tournament. Very rarely do I have my guys throw back to back games. Only if they threw a inning or two the day before and the pitch count was low and I only plan on using them for an inning or two again not the complete game. That is my take on it.

The number one cause of arm injury is the arm isn't in shape.

The arm gets in shape by throwing.

Pitch counts are important but grossly misunderstood to the point that everyone believes in cookie cutter count numbers.

And, no one ever considers the 30-35 pitch inning.

Very unrealistic.

Get the arms in shape by throwing, throwing alot, and throwing every day.

Lamber, I agree about the number one cause of injury that you mentioned. I have gone over the records and info of all the guys that I played with, and very few had injuries that shut down their careers. Most either made it or did not make it, but serious injury was not high on the list of the guys who did not make it.

Today, we have more advanced surgery, more advanced care, pitch counts, etc. etc. etc. and we now have many more serious injuries and every other pitcher seems to have TJ surgery. I never had a pitch count in my life, nor did my teammates.

I was just looking through an old Sporting News Baseball Guide from 1968 that has all the stats of every minor league and minor league player from that year. In the Pacific Coast league that year Rich Robertson of Phoenix was 18-9 with a 2.36 ERA. He pitched 256 innings in a 140 game schedule. He had 18 complete games and never had arm problems.He pitched on 3 days rest like all the other pitchers of that time, and there were no pitch counts, as no body had thought of pitch counts yet. That same year, Juan Marichal pitched 326 innings in the big leagues and had 30 complete games. You stayed on the mound until the game was over or they whacked you around. The better you were, the more innings you pitched.Heck, guys were pitching 65-75 innings in the instructional league in the fall after pitching 200 innings during the season in Class "A" ball.

Kids don't throw enough and they are babied too much in HS, College and Pro ball.

Going to the ASMI, a group of doctors who treat injuries and asking them about the cause of arm injury is ridiculous.

Yes, they are doctors. Yes, they can diagnose what your injury is.

But none of them have ever trained an arm to be in shape. They speculate that throwing caused the injury......No s***? I could've told you that. You didn't need a doctor. Then, they tell you to reduce your throwing.....HUH????

Everyone on the planet knows that to get something in shape you use it. You don't rest it. If that would be the case, this couch potato would be in tremendous shape.

I wish people would think about what they are being sold.

The only way to insure no arm injury is to not throw at all. That is not an option for a ball player. So, the only option is to get the arm in shape. How........throw! And throw alot.

My childhood included 3 games per week of which I usually pitched 2 and caught the other. No one ever counted my pitches.

Add to that, I threw all day everyday in the sandlot. If we didn't have enough for a game we imitated big league shortstops making the play in the hole. Might have made 20 or 30 throws doing that. We played HR derby. Maybe threw 100-200 pitches doing that. We imitated outfielders and would see who could throw the farthest. We would practice relays from the outfield fence. We would practice as a catcher throwing runners out. All of this before dinner.

Then, after dinner, if we had a game, I might pitch a complete game. I never remember being relieved in little league. If I didn't pitch, I caught, and I threw every pitch back to the pitcher harder than he threw it to me. And I hit him just off his left cheek.

If we didn't have a game, we redid the afternoon. I never had an arm problem. None of my teammates/playmates had trouble. We all played through high school and many on to college. Those not playing college played amateur ball into their 30's and some into their 40's. None quit because of arm injury.

Arm injuries are caused by lack of use, not by throwing too much.

Today, kids sit at the computer or nintendo all day and then expect to throw in the game. They don't get in 150 pitches a week. I got that many every morning.

Of course the arm needs rest. It gets it when you sleep.

Lamber you hit the nail on the head here. Most arm injuries are caused by a lack of throwing. I have seen this over and over at the High School level. Kid plays baseball from Feb to May then moves on to other things. Comes back out for baseball in Feb and hasnt thrown for months. Then he goes out for the team and is trying to gun it and there it goes. Kids that throw year round rarely have sore arms. If they do have some soreness they recover very quickly with a day off. Lack of throwing is what the problem is not too much throwing. Of course you need pitch counts that is just common sense. But situations vary and so do kids recovery time.

Lamber and I finally concur !!!


KIDS DO NOT PLAY CATCH ANYMORE !!!!

Big difference between throwing and pitching. Light throwing in between starts keeps the muscles from tightening up too much and gets blood flowing to the areas that need to recover. Pitching, especially off a mound, between starts tends to redamage the arm somewhat and there needs to be some recovery time allowed for. The day after he pitches I always have my son work with the tubing and if possible we do some light throwing. Since he pitches twice a week we drop the pitching lessons during the season although there are times a refresher lesson would help.

Every kid is different and some recover quicker than others. My experience with LL was seeing our ace pitcher destroy his elbow while the coaches rode his arm to the district title. He wasn't able to play as a 13yo and then was on my team as a 14yo. He still threw harder than anyone else in the league and our coach made me and him catch for each other. He also threw the ball back to the mound harder than anyone else if I happened to throw a pitch in the dirt. His arm pretty much gave out during the league championships, he was inneffective in all-stars and I never saw him again during colt, legion, HS, etc.

My arm got sore every time I threw 6 or 7 innings or in HS or JC threw a 100+ pitches in BP but it always recovered in time for the next game. Every kid is different.

For those of you who believe in the ASMI check out their track record over the last 20 years.

Then compare it to bbscouts era.

They just as well have a box of band aids when coming upon a trauma victim than try to reduce arm injuries with their theories.

This truly is a momentous occasion!

As I agree completely that the number one problem is players are no physical condition to throw baseballs.

For some entertainment and possible enlightenment you may want to check out the following link.

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5667

A truly momentous occasion!!

I will say this one more time!!!

KIDS DO NOT PLAY CATCH ANYMORE !!!!!

IMO - Yes - many kids do not throw enough. No disputing that.

BUT - Add to that these same kids then get overpitched - or begin to throw different types of pitches before they even have a decent understanding of mechanics - and you wind up with a surgical jamboree.

There are a variety of reasons why we are seeing so many injuries. Oversimplifying the reasons for the quantity of arm injuries wont help anyone IMO.

"ITS"

I totally agree- the arm that blows out in college may not necessarily be the fault of the college coach--it ist he final stage of what has gone on before,beginning with the 6U Elite Travel teams

JMHO

"There are a variety of reasons why we are seeing so many injuries. Oversimplifying the reasons for the quantity of arm injuries wont help anyone IMO."

Precisely!

And that is exactly what ASMI and those religiously adhere to pitch counts which includes Major League Baseball are doing, "oversimplifying" as in pitch counts.

Their oversimplification is if you throw less, you're less apt to be injured.

There is a reason they call it a pitch count not a throw count. If you pitch more you are somewhat more likely to be injured. If, while pitching, you throw harder you will put more stress on the arm. If you have the ability to throw harder, then usually, but not always, your arm can handle the stress better. If you throw more without overstressing the arm you will tend to prevent arm injuries to some degree. Adhereing to pitch counts as long as you also condition the arm will reduce the probability of injury. That doesn't mean that every kid who throws a lot of pitches will end up injured. Some kids have rubber arms. It doesn't mean that every kid who keeps to pitch counts will remain injury free. Some kids have arms prone to injury. ASMI is just giving us the statistics.

I think we threw a lot more as kids, but I think in general we pitched a lot less than these kids coming up through the travel ball generation and I think that some of the injuries are due to pitching overuse at an early age.

One big difference I tend to see in the lower age groups is the number of innings thrown. As kids we always went 6 or 7 innings once a week. These days the kids go 3 or 4 innings twice a week during their regular season. With the 6 or 7 innings there is more risk of injury during a given game but you also get plenty of recovery time and an opportunity to work on mechanics between starts. Going 3 to 4 innings twice a week there is very little downtime between outings.

"Adhereing to pitch counts as long as you also condition the arm will reduce the probability of injury."

There is actually no data to support this statement. There is no such thing as a universal number for pitch count that applies to everyone.

If you did any research you would find that at the Major league level, according to PAP (Pitcher Abuse Points), 110 pitches is okay, 120 is not.

There appears to be a huge nonlinearity in establishing pitch counts at least using PAP.

As far as I know and I would hope someone would correct me if I'm wrong, pitch counts as established by the ASM I was done using surveys to doctors, trainers and coaches. It is totally subjective. It is also an average of an aggregate. It is no different than saying everyone who pitches a baseball should have identical mechanics if they were want to succeed.

Which makes this whole discussion of pitch counts in the correctness or incorrectness associated with pitch counts simply a matter of opinions.

If you want to use pitch counts as a way of reining in overzealous coaches or parents, that's fine.

But by lumping all of the ills of coaching, conditioning and instruction into one pot creates the illusion that universally less is better.

Which is potentially the root cause of the whole injury problem.

Fred55,
The fewer pitches thrown the less chance of injury. Every pitch is an opportunity for injury. If pitcher's only threw 10 pitches per game and also kept their arms conditioned we'd see far fewer injuries. Obviously, that wouldn't work in the real world. If you adhere to pitch counts you'll throw fewer pitches so there'll be less chance of injury. It is simply statistics.

Blind adherence to pitch counts is not good. They are simply a guideline. Generally, if a kid is throwing easily, maintaining their mechanics, and has a proven arm you can go over the pitch counts to some degree. If a kid is struggling, their mechanics are degrading, or they have a history of arm problems you certainly don't want to wait for them to reach a pitch count before pulling them.

Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read the article but people have looked at how certain ML managers tend to damage their pitcher's arms by over using them early in their careers. I think Jim Tracy was one of the managers noted as being dangerous to arms. Once a pitcher has established that they have a rubber arm and can throw close to 300 innings a year then go ahead and use them that way. However, trying to use every pitcher that way will destroy some careers. Each pitcher has to be handled differently. Pedro Martinez is a very valuable pitcher but if you tried to make him throw complete games every outing he wouldn't last half a season.

bbscout,
Robertson must really have had a rubber arm to throw that many innings considering he was about as wild as a pitcher can get and still make it to the big leagues.

CADad,

"If you adhere to pitch counts you'll throw fewer pitches so there'll be less chance of injury. It is simply statistics."

No, it's not simply statistics, at least not the way that you have stated it.

What you have stated is an assumption that the throwing process with respect to its effect on the body is linear.

Also implied in your statement is that what is good for a 10-year-old is also good for a major league pitcher throwing 95 mph.

I'm surprised for someone who likes to flaunt their engineering background, that you did not pick up on my PAP commentary.

That the body does not adhere to linear principles with respect to data obtained by the PAP people.

And there's every possibility of bifurcations along the way.

Something your simplistic commentary shows no recognition of.

Next time that you want to show how smart you are trying picking on someone your own size.

I apologize to everyone else for my rude comments and please don't allow this thread to disintegrate into bickering.

But I have had enough of CADad's self-proclaimed intellectual know it all attitudes, either directly stated or inferred, just as I'm sure others have had it with mine.

And I would hope that you recognize that my sometimes caustic commentary is not without information value, at least I believe it is for those what willing to try and understand what is being said.

Fred55,
You don't have to be an intellectual, self-proclaimed or otherwise to realize that the more often you perform an action that carries with it the risk of injury the higher the probability of an injury occurring. Now when I state that it is simply statistics that means that you can't apply it to an individual and expect it to work every time. The ASMI guidelines are based on a wide population and with a wide population they've found some "knees" in the curve at which they've placed their limits. Every pitcher has to be considered on an individual basis and the ASMI guidelines simply provide a starting point.

If you had taken the time to read what I wrote, the bottom line was that rigid adherence to pitch counts was not a good idea and that pitch counts should be used only as guidelines. I don't strictly adhere to the guidelines with my pitchers (12yo). If my pitchers are throwing well I'll let them go somewhere around 70 pitches twice a week. That ends up being about 3 innings twice a week if they are pitching OK, less if they are pitching well. If they don't have to pitch again for another week I will at times go beyond that. I've thrown 12yo 2 innings one day and then brought them back for 5 innings on a days rest. I won't do it the other way around. If my pitchers aren't throwing well or look like they are in pain I'll pull them so the pitch count isn't an issue.

I wasn't implying anything about 10yo when I brought up the major league pitchers. That was more as a counterpoint, not a disagreement, with bbscouts' information presented earlier.

As far as the PAP goes the difference in a single game between 110 pitches and 120 pitches is almost meaningless. A given pitcher could throw 120 pitches with little stress one outing and throw 110 pitches with far more stress another. I really didn't address that at all in my previous post.

Now don't go off and say that 120 pitches is more than 110 pitches and therefore contradictory to my original statement because it isn't. If a pitcher throws 110 pitches in a game he's put a certain amount of stress on his arm. If he then goes out and throws another 10 pitches he increases the chance of injury. If he is capable of throwing 120 or more pitches in a game the injury chance doesn't increase much but it does increase.

Oh, and just so you don't get a swelled head, I'm not picking on you.

CADad = John Kerry.

The truth is I voted for it before I voted against it.

Lamber,
Both of my posts say the same thing. Since Fred55 implied that I should pick on somebody with my own intellectual capabilities I am very definitely not picking on you.

To paraphrase from the Vice-Presidential debate - I don't know John Kerry, but I do know that I am no John Kerry.

CADad,

I apologize for getting too aggressive with my previous post.

I did try to edit it after thinking about what I posted but the new forum settings only allow a 60 minute window to at your post.

So again, I apologize for any comments against your personal being.

The point I try to make and I will try to do it again is that the ASMI pitch count numbers make the assumption of a one-to-one correspondence between cause-and-effect. No way, no how.

The other point I'm trying to make is that those who hide behind, religiously wave the flag, speak with great authority regarding pitch counts are doing nothing more than perpetuating a belief system developed by the ASMI.

And based upon the continuing pitcher arm injury trend at all levels of baseball, it appears that there believe system needs be questioned.

And it appears that the ASMI is doing just that except their doing it in a cover your ass manner by blaming the very qualities (throwing hard, throwing often) that have been the hallmarks of exceptional pitchers through out baseball history.

Fred55,
Thanks. I'll apologize for the "not picking on you" remark. I really think we pretty much agree on this. I do believe that when you talk about pitchers in general very high pitch counts can lead to problems in some of those pitchers. Exceptional pitchers are exceptional and as a result the guidelines certainly don't apply to them. I don't know what is causing the arm injury trend in baseball or if it is just more notice being taken of arm injuries and fewer pitchers being willing to throw through them. After all if you're making a million dollars a year and you have a choice of going out and throwing with a sore arm and performing poorly or going in for surgery and getting paid anyway you might just opt for the surgery.

There really isn't a way to tell for sure about pitch counts at the major league level. On one hand you've got the Oakland A's who supposedly limit the pitch counts of their big three pretty religiously and on the other hand you've got pitchers who throw far more year in and year out without hurting their arms. It should be interesting to see what happens with Francisco Rodriguez of the Angels. The team didn't want him to play winter ball but he went out and threw 40+ innings. He got off to a poor start the previous season and wanted to be ready to go this season.

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Ball:
Chicks,
Have read many of your very good posts on this BB. I'll bet something in your gut was already telling you he needs to cut back. Spoke with a friend this week about his freshman son, who if he ever wants to pitch again will need T.J. surgery. The guy use to talk of his son throwing for his select team, 100+ pitches and coming back the next day to throw more. All to win baseball games when he was 12, 13, and 14...He is a big boy, but that still did not make it ok to abuse him.
Sounds like your son has lots of potential, don't let some coach screw it up!

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Thank you T-Ball for the compliment and you are correct about my gut feelings. I have definitely become more aware and protective of his arm. I will not allow his 14u tournament coach to use him too much this year, it's just not worth the risk and the one important thing i've learned in all my boy's baseball years is that winning games is not what it's about at all. It's really about "what you become in life". Thanks again for the kind words!

It is the duty of the coach to protect the arms of his pitchers. It is also the reponsabilty of a player to communicate with his coach and let him know if there are any problems with his body. Then the coach will respond accordinly. This is for travel ball only, travel ball coaches get to caught up in just winning and making a winning name for their team. Who really is going to remember in a couple years who won this or that tournament. Travel Ball for me is to get my guy competitive experience against good teams. So that when they go back to there high school teams they have already played at that level and/or hopefully a higher level. Also to help them build a reputation and hopefully get exposurer. Even if a kid does throw a lot his should be pitching 100 + pitches. The only time in my opinion should be his junior, senior year on a varisty team and he has to be on that day and feels great. The only reason why I personally would say junior senior year because of the chance of colleges or scout looking at him. Or it is a big game to advance in playoffs or make playoffs. But it would be a 1 to 2 time deal for the season not every week.

My kid is 14U and has played a lot of select ball over the last 6 years without a shoulder or elbow problem. He hasn't thrown any more or any less than any other kid on his teams though, a couple of those kids have had significant elbow or shoulder problems.

Up until two months ago my son participated on a year round swim team since he was 7. Nightly practices lasted an hour and a half when he was younger and two hours after that. Needless to say, he was always in shape and the arm movements and gentle resistance in swimming strengthened and protected his shoulder considerably.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wheelhouse:
My kid is 14U and has played a lot of select ball over the last 6 years without a shoulder or elbow problem. He hasn't thrown any more or any less than any other kid on his teams though, a couple of those kids have had significant elbow or shoulder problems.

Up until two months ago my son participated on a year round swim team since he was 7. Nightly practices lasted an hour and a half when he was younger and two hours after that. Needless to say, he was always in shape and the arm movements and gentle resistance in swimming strengthened and protected his shoulder considerably.

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I heard that swimming regularly would increase a pitcher's fastball +5 mph. I would also think that it would be therapeutic for his arm.