Pitch count

No doubt one of the greatest and most exciting games ever played as I watched it live. The other game for me was the 1991 WS, game 7, between Jack Morris and John Smoltz. I don't recall pitch count being a big deal in that game either.

The times have changed. If you are a pitcher's parent, you might argue they have changed for the better. Not only are pitcher's being monitored and used less these days in order to mitigate injury, more pitchers are getting the opportunity to pitch. Some still argue that the best way to build arm strength is to in fact pitch. Maybe this is all just in the luck of the genes

Pitch counts in major league baseball is a joke. Just look at how Girardi, who in my opinion is not even qualified to manage a t-ball game ruined Joba with the Joba rules. And also the number of times he pulls pitchers who are cruising , barely breaking a sweat but has to dig into that middle relief because of his clicker and either hang onto games and unnecessarily used up the pen or put somebody in who gave up the game. I could go on about Girardi but could be here all day. .Pitch counts weren't made a big deal of not that long ago. Today it's gospel. Why , I have no idea since all pitch counts do is weaken pitchers.

IMO, pitch counts in the minors should be used as a base to get young arms more conditioned for the long haul from going from 25-30 high school season to a 162 major league schedule. Not as a statistic in the majors to decide a pitcher has to come out after 90-100 pitches. By time they get to the majors, they should be able to physically pitch a 9-inning game.

I also believe the "specialist" ruined pitching too. IMO, a specialist is nothing more than a pitcher who can't get half the batter's out he's supposed to and can only pitch to specific types of hitters. If he can't get out half those specific hitters, then he's really useless. Train these guys in the minors to be short relievers or specialists and you get an unconditioned pitcher in the big leagues.

What about the day's when pitchers used to pitch both ends of a double header. I doubt if Cy Young was ever under the watchful eye of a pitch count.

The only thing that I believe should be limited on pitchers, especially young pitchers is the amount of breaking balls.

The problem with pitch counts is one size does not fit all. I think each pitcher should be evaluated for his own pitch count. What destroys pitchers arms is overuse and not getting the necessary rest between outings, not breaking balls. However, what is overuse changes from one pitcher to the next.

I do agree, by the time a pitcher reaches the big leagues, they should be able to go more than 90-100 pitches. HS kids go at least that much and I don't think it is overuse at that age. Just don't go beyond the point where fatigue starts to break down mechanics. Hard to believe that an outing that lasts 6 innings and 3 or fewer runs allowed is considered a "quality" start at the MLB level. That is a 4.5 ERA. Doesn't sound that great to me. Neither does just 6 innings.

Tom Seaver did an interview a little while back and he said the pitchers back in those days had pitch counts. His was around 125, he said Nolan Ryan's was around 150. 90-100 is not very high. I think for the money these guys make, they should be able to go more than that.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:


The times have changed. If you are a pitcher's parent, you might argue they have changed for the better. Not only are pitcher's being monitored and used less these days in order to mitigate injury, more pitchers are getting the opportunity to pitch. Some still argue that the best way to build arm strength is to in fact pitch. Maybe this is all just in the luck of the genes

CD is pretty close, about more opportunity.

No matter how one prepares, there are some who can go the distance once in 5 days and others who can't and much has to do with their makeup (for the roles they play), type of pitches they throw and what god gave them. That's why some have different roles and that is why the game has changed in pitching.

If there were no pitch counts (which monitors fatigue) or inning counts (which monitors progress) in MLB most pitchers would spend more time on the DL than in the game, it's not a joke as stated. It also takes a long time to work up to the necessary 162+ innings, it doesn't happen overnight and for most young pitchers out of HS and some out of college, a gain of 30+ give or take innings a year is the rule. Especially for those who throw very hard and fast. Most teams adhere to that rule for pitchers. There is no one size fits all, it depends on your role.

Many ML starters were once ML relievers, that is usually how many teams bring them up (but some don't anymore) and I beleive that Joba is a perfect example of a young guy who should be coming out of the pen right now, not as a starter. They just do not have anyone to fill his role.

quote:

If there were no pitch counts (which monitors fatigue) or inning counts (which monitors progress) in MLB most pitchers would spend more time on the DL than in the game, it's not a joke as stated. It also takes a long time to work up to the necessary 162+ innings, it doesn't happen overnight and for most young pitchers out of HS and some out of college, a gain of 30+ give or take innings a year is the rule. Especially for those who throw very hard and fast. Most teams adhere to that rule for pitchers. There is no one size fits all, it depends on your role.

I believe I made that point about building arm strength in the minors so that by time they get to the majors so they can pitch and handle a 162 game schedule. I think we agree here. However, MLB using pitch counts to yank pitchers IS a joke from what I've seen. If a pitcher is throwing a 2-hitter in the 7th and has 85 pitches logged, you don't pull him for a middle reliever who's not gonna be as good as your starter and at the same time burn up your bullpen. A starter gets to rest 5 days. Why pull him just because you have a bullpen. The bullpen guy goes 1-2 innings and he's toast. Middle relievers are a dime-a-dozen. When your starter has a gem going, there are times he should be finishing what he started. Other times you go to your closer.

Today's pitchers are soft and can't handle the workload. They break down too easy. The CC Sabathias of the world are rare and even his manager won't even let him throw the CG game once in a while. I've seen Sabathia pulled and the guy is coasting, not breaking a sweat only to hand the game over to a bullpen that blows his gem.

Nolan Ryan has the right idea. He got his missive out to the minor league system that he wants them to eat the clicker (metaphorically that is) and build up these arms by getting innings so they are ready to pitch at the major league level and can pitch deep into games.

What good is a starter that only can give you 5-6 injnings, 85-100 pitches max?

"What good is a starter that only can give you 5-6 innings, 85-100 pitches max?"

Exactly! Who would be crazy enough to let a Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux ruin their staff?

These stories are nice but there's also the ones where a pitcher puts in 230+ innings then throws a couple games in the playoffs and is useless the next season or for the rest of his career. Every pitcher is different and while there are some who would certainly be able to handle a greater workload, in general the teams are limiting pitch counts and innings because it works.

And how about that Girardi, if it wasn't for him the Yankees would have the best record in baseball! Oops, what's that...they do?

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
"What good is a starter that only can give you 5-6 innings, 85-100 pitches max?"

Exactly! Who would be crazy enough to let a Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux ruin their staff?

These stories are nice but there's also the ones where a pitcher puts in 230+ innings then throws a couple games in the playoffs and is useless the next season or for the rest of his career. Every pitcher is different and while there are some who would certainly be able to handle a greater workload, in general the teams are limiting pitch counts and innings because it works.

And how about that Girardi, if it wasn't for him the Yankees would have the best record in baseball! Oops, what's that...they do?

Good points there.
ZW,
We must be watching different games, because I have never seen a milb pitcher throwing a gem because he reached an 85 pitch count UNLESS he was showing signs of fatigue, and only those that watch them pitch every game know when that comes.

Also, for what it's worth, if you have a fresh bullpen, there is no reason to tax your starter. That's why god made middle relievers and IMO they are not a dime a dozen. You are not talking 5 days complete rest, those guys are out there throwing the next day and have pens in between, which may count in the total for 5 days.
his year son pitched against a milb starter who went the distance the game before, he was toasted by the 4th inning that next game and continued that path for a while, not sure some realize what 7-9 innings can do to a young fuy. Try maintaining 93-96 for two+ hours.
Why do some people think that this is so easy, try it sometime.

Pitch counts, as I have said before, are relative to the player as well as the game situations---90 pitches is 90 pitches by count but were they spread over 7 inning or 5 innings---was there an inning of 30 plus pitches in those 90 pitches---was the pitcher a max effort pitcher or not?

TR makes good points, it's all relative to what has transpired through the outings. One rough inning, even if the pitcher cruises on the others, can have a negative effect later on.
It's true starters that are hard to come by, and when a team thinks they have one, they are going to watch them very carefully.
As a pitcher's parent, I am very happy and grateful that the team he plays for (same goes for his former college coaches)watch and monitor them closely.

Just curious does anyone have a link giving an example of proof that modern day pitching is saving arms and reducing arm injurys??

My son's agent was a college player who put in a ton of time on the college mound before he got to pro ball, his ML career cut short by TJS many, many years ago.

This is a perfect example of why I think that pitch counts are necessary, lots of over use occurs for many before they get to college or pro ball. It's accumulative.

Besides no mention of pitch counts, I bet there was no radar gun reading on the screen after every pitch. I do not know for certain, but I suspect the widespread use of the radar gun and posting the reading at the ballpark and on TV has had an effect on pitchers and injuries. Pitchers know that coaches watch the gun reading and may crank it up nowadays later in the game when they used to just pitch.

Besides no mention of pitch counts, I bet there was no radar gun reading on the screen after every pitch. I do not know for certain, but I suspect the widespread use of the radar gun and posting the reading at the ballpark and on TV has had an effect on pitchers and injuries. Pitchers know that coaches watch the gun reading and may crank it up nowadays later in the game when they used to just pitch.

----------------------------------------------------

i think this would be true in high school and college. once they pay you to play, you want to get out's.

90 gets you drafted, getting guy's out keeps you there.

quote:

Originally posted by 2ontheaisle:
I do not know for certain, but I suspect the widespread use of the radar gun and posting the reading at the ballpark and on TV has had an effect on pitchers and injuries. Pitchers know that coaches watch the gun reading and may crank it up nowadays later in the game when they used to just pitch.

20dad is correct, for most pro pitchers, they don't crank it up because some coach is watching, they are paid to get people out, they are not thinking of cranking it up to impress anyone.
However, the radar gun in pro ball can be revealing and that is why it is used. For example, once son who could get it up to 94-95, after high of 88 in a game, for him it signaled an issue.
Pitching is one of those things where a guy can have an outstanding year and then have trouble finding his way the next (Brad Lidge), without injury. Or struggle for awhile, almost give up and then have an outstanding year (Grienke). It's all about finding what works, and sometimes when you think you have found it, you might lose it (Randy Johnson)only to find it again.