When talking about pitch counts, are the pregame warm ups and the pitches before each inning ever become a consideration? Just looking at some college numbers, 130 pitches plus all the above seems like a huge number...?
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
When talking about pitch counts, are the pregame warm ups and the pitches before each inning ever become a consideration? Just looking at some college numbers, 130 pitches plus all the above seems like a huge number...?
Those numbers given do not include bull pen, or the pitches thrown for warm up before each inning.
So add it up, 130 is no longer just 130.
These numbers are HUGE. They may not be for some, but in my opinion that it is for most.
Thanks TPM. I guess since all pitchers have those throws they aren't officially counted, but when you do... HUGE is right.
quote:Thanks TPM. I guess since all pitchers have those throws they aren't officially counted, but when you do... HUGE is right.
That is one reason I am against pitch counts. They don't count everything.
Just assuming the warm up pitches "are the same" for each pitcher is a mistake. When I was in high school, we had one pitcher who would go down and throw 20 pitches and he was ready to go in. On the other hand, had another one who would go down and throw 50-60 pitches to warm up..
That is a HUGE difference...
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
How do you determine an individual pitch count then, if not by the statistics of probability as set forth by the best minds in medicine today?
I have never seen the rationale for how they picked the nice round 100 number.
Please post a link if you know where ASMI, or anyone, studied the effect of various specific pitch count limits and determined that 100 - not 110, or 90, or 180 was best.
Sultan,
Is that all you do is hang in the weeds and throw out sarcasm and question others while offering nothing substantial to the conversation besides strutting around like you know something everyone else doesn't. Grow up a little, would ya?
Dr. Glenn Fleisig biomechanical engineer, published studies
To suggest that the numbers ASMI uses are arbitrary shows complete ignorance on your part...demonstrating your place in that lower 50% of average intelligence.
This will be a good start towards your quest, but I doubt you have either the initiative or the follow through to actually look for an answer.
Chip Porter
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:Thanks TPM. I guess since all pitchers have those throws they aren't officially counted, but when you do... HUGE is right.
That is one reason I am against pitch counts. They don't count everything.
Just assuming the warm up pitches "are the same" for each pitcher is a mistake. When I was in high school, we had one pitcher who would go down and throw 20 pitches and he was ready to go in. On the other hand, had another one who would go down and throw 50-60 pitches to warm up..
That is a HUGE difference...
The huge difference is not in numbers, but in degree of exertion. The pitcher warming up with 60 is not throwing with the same degree of exertion as the pitcher throwing 20. Pitch counts in games are max effort. Most pitchers warming up, whether 20 or 60 throw about the same number of max effort pitches. The number of pitches between innings is regulated, so really, using a game pitch count, counting max effort pitches thrown that day, will not vary much from one pitcher to the next.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
The huge difference is not in numbers, but in degree of exertion. The pitcher warming up with 60 is not throwing with the same degree of exertion as the pitcher throwing 20. Pitch counts in games are max effort. Most pitchers warming up, whether 20 or 60 throw about the same number of max effort pitches. The number of pitches between innings is regulated, so really, using a game pitch count, counting max effort pitches thrown that day, will not vary much from one pitcher to the next.
I don’t know that I’d characterize all pitches thrown in a game as “max effort”, but I would say that most pitches thrown in a game are thrown with more effort than the same pitch in a bullpen or warm-ups. But for me the thing that’s the major difference, is the amount of stress. Unless there’s some scout watching the pen, or the coach is gonna cut someone who doesn’t look like he’s putting out a lot of effort in practice, there’s no way any pitch in a pen or practice is gonna have the same level of stress as the most meaningless pitch in a game.
Throw a lollipop right down the chute in a pen, and to most people it looks fantastic. But throw that same lollipop in a game to even the worst hitter in the lineup, and its much more possible that you end up with whiplash, and that’s embarrassing. And how does one prepare for runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs, and your team up by a run in the bottom of the last inning? There’s no way to train for the kind of stress that puts on a pitcher, because there’s no way to generate that kind of stress other than in a game.
Now if I had my druthers, I’d count every single throw, along with the circumstances it was thrown under, but that’s not realistic at this point in time. If and when there’s a national database created and mandatory reporting, a whole lot of things would change very quickly. But for right now, the very system invites and encourages people to have no faith that pitch counts could hold a big part of the secret to reducing pitching injuries.
I think the bottom line here coaches, parents, and pitchers need to recognize the fact that pitchers can injure and will injure their arms. There are way too many kids that it is happening to. Will pitch counts stop the injuries? I don’t know. But at this time it is the easiest thing for the majority of untrained volunteer coaches and for parents to understand. Maybe just maybe somebody is on to something? It is a start until someone can come up with something better.
The thing that really bothers me is the quote from the newspaper article in the OP. about this kid having a rubber arm, doesn’t need a pitch count, we’ll have him back out there in a couple days,...etc. With all of the publicity and information out there about overuse injuries how can someone coaching at a HS varsity level and even college coaches continue to ignore the possibility that they may be doing some harm to a kids arm. Why and how a lot of people think it will not happen to their pitcher amazes me.
Pitchers will never stop throwing, injuries will never completely end. The pitch counts are just a piece of the pie. It is another tool that can be used to help manage arms. It is the disregard for a kid’s long term health that bothers me. I don’t care what method anybody uses, just do something that’s not going to abuse a kids arm.
PGstaff had a great post about his programs thought process about his pitching staff. It may not be 100% right (who knows) but who would you rather have your son play for? Someone who works his pitchers like that or a coach that was quoted in the OP?
The thing that really bothers me is the quote from the newspaper article in the OP. about this kid having a rubber arm, doesn’t need a pitch count, we’ll have him back out there in a couple days,...etc. With all of the publicity and information out there about overuse injuries how can someone coaching at a HS varsity level and even college coaches continue to ignore the possibility that they may be doing some harm to a kids arm. Why and how a lot of people think it will not happen to their pitcher amazes me.
Pitchers will never stop throwing, injuries will never completely end. The pitch counts are just a piece of the pie. It is another tool that can be used to help manage arms. It is the disregard for a kid’s long term health that bothers me. I don’t care what method anybody uses, just do something that’s not going to abuse a kids arm.
PGstaff had a great post about his programs thought process about his pitching staff. It may not be 100% right (who knows) but who would you rather have your son play for? Someone who works his pitchers like that or a coach that was quoted in the OP?
Watched a hard throwing lefty from Delta Colorado throw 135 pitches Saturday. He was finally pulled when he could no longer throw in the zone 
Sat in on a coversation with a former MLB pitcher who said, back in the day you stayed in as long as your getting outs..... you were pulled when you could no longer get any.
No such thing as "counts"...
.. and the player???.......
Mr. Tommy John.... go figure!
No such thing as "counts"...
.. and the player???.......
Mr. Tommy John.... go figure!
I posted this over in the pitching topic area and thought I would post it here too.
Very interesting read to see how some handle pitch counts and suggestions to control these situations and help future pitchers. One thing I don't see too often is people talking about what their kids did or are doing from age 4 or 5 until 12 or 13. While I am a true believer in pitch counts and knowing what your "school" coach will do or not do in this regard, IMHO kids in general do not get the proper training early on in life to help prevent future "injury" problems.
You may be asking, WHAT KIND OF TRAINING can a 4 or 5 year old start that will help him when he is 15 to 16? I say something fun like swimming can make a tremendous difference in a young man's development and here's why. I am not talking about jumping in the pool and playing maro-polo either, but doing competitive swimming and learning all the strokes: free style, back stroke, breast stroke, butterfly etc. Most kids are right or left handed and naturally work that side of their body most. Put him in the pool and watch how the dominant arm jumps out of the water (mine at 4 or 5 years old reveled a really dramatic difference from dominant to weak side). It was amazing how low the weak side arm came out of the water compared to the dominant side. After 5 or more years of training both sides of your body in competitive swimming a young athletic body is much better prepared for the demands pitching puts on it for the coming years. His back and shoulder muscles are balanced and has tremendous strength throughout his upper and lower body. Swimming also emphasizes flexibility, a huge requirement for effective pitching.
I realize this may be off topic since pitch count and rest between appearances on the mound seems to be what most target for protecting the arm and I agree! I also believe parents can do a lot for their kids way before you can count that first pitch. So all you parents with future baseball stars, get those young kids out there in the pool!!
Very interesting read to see how some handle pitch counts and suggestions to control these situations and help future pitchers. One thing I don't see too often is people talking about what their kids did or are doing from age 4 or 5 until 12 or 13. While I am a true believer in pitch counts and knowing what your "school" coach will do or not do in this regard, IMHO kids in general do not get the proper training early on in life to help prevent future "injury" problems.
You may be asking, WHAT KIND OF TRAINING can a 4 or 5 year old start that will help him when he is 15 to 16? I say something fun like swimming can make a tremendous difference in a young man's development and here's why. I am not talking about jumping in the pool and playing maro-polo either, but doing competitive swimming and learning all the strokes: free style, back stroke, breast stroke, butterfly etc. Most kids are right or left handed and naturally work that side of their body most. Put him in the pool and watch how the dominant arm jumps out of the water (mine at 4 or 5 years old reveled a really dramatic difference from dominant to weak side). It was amazing how low the weak side arm came out of the water compared to the dominant side. After 5 or more years of training both sides of your body in competitive swimming a young athletic body is much better prepared for the demands pitching puts on it for the coming years. His back and shoulder muscles are balanced and has tremendous strength throughout his upper and lower body. Swimming also emphasizes flexibility, a huge requirement for effective pitching.
I realize this may be off topic since pitch count and rest between appearances on the mound seems to be what most target for protecting the arm and I agree! I also believe parents can do a lot for their kids way before you can count that first pitch. So all you parents with future baseball stars, get those young kids out there in the pool!!
Agree with the swimming comments with one thought, have a really good swim coach that teaches great technigue or you will rsik the same overuse injuries. I have watched many swim coaches set up a work out and hardly watch the strokes only the amount of mileage.
quote:Originally posted by AL MA 08:
I posted this over in the pitching topic area and thought I would post it here too.
Very interesting read to see how some handle pitch counts and suggestions to control these situations and help future pitchers. One thing I don't see too often is people talking about what their kids did or are doing from age 4 or 5 until 12 or 13. While I am a true believer in pitch counts and knowing what your "school" coach will do or not do in this regard, IMHO kids in general do not get the proper training early on in life to help prevent future "injury" problems.
You may be asking, WHAT KIND OF TRAINING can a 4 or 5 year old start that will help him when he is 15 to 16? I say something fun like swimming can make a tremendous difference in a young man's development and here's why. I am not talking about jumping in the pool and playing maro-polo either, but doing competitive swimming and learning all the strokes: free style, back stroke, breast stroke, butterfly etc. Most kids are right or left handed and naturally work that side of their body most. Put him in the pool and watch how the dominant arm jumps out of the water (mine at 4 or 5 years old reveled a really dramatic difference from dominant to weak side). It was amazing how low the weak side arm came out of the water compared to the dominant side. After 5 or more years of training both sides of your body in competitive swimming a young athletic body is much better prepared for the demands pitching puts on it for the coming years. His back and shoulder muscles are balanced and has tremendous strength throughout his upper and lower body. Swimming also emphasizes flexibility, a huge requirement for effective pitching.
I realize this may be off topic since pitch count and rest between appearances on the mound seems to be what most target for protecting the arm and I agree! I also believe parents can do a lot for their kids way before you can count that first pitch. So all you parents with future baseball stars, get those young kids out there in the pool!!
My boy trains with the local swim team. Home schooled kids have to have "PE" class and swimming is his PE. He is nine years old and you know how hard they work these kids, a mile of sprints (or whatever they call 'em) in an hour is easy. I stopped by to watch just last week and noticed the opposite regarding dominant arms. His non-dominant left arm came out of the water higher than his dominant arm. I figured this was due to less coordination in his left arm since it seems that you would want to barely clear the water with the arms and move forward as efficiently as possible. I am no swimming expert so I may be wrong on the technique.
Swimming correctly really is beautiful and graceful. Seeing these kids maneuver their bodies like a fish with that up and down motion is a pretty sight.
I have never checked in to the advisability of swimming as a baseball player since he will likely quit swimming in the next year when he begins school. However, I have heard that most strokes (excepting back hand) can add too much stress to a baseball players' arm. Naturally depends upon how much a kid swims and throws.
quote:Originally posted by Texas1836:
I have never checked in to the advisability of swimming as a baseball player since he will likely quit swimming in the next year when he begins school. However, I have heard that most strokes (excepting back hand) can add too much stress to a baseball players' arm. Naturally depends upon how much a kid swims and throws.
I would advise that one does research. Many swimmers have issues, many of them have their bursa removed under arm to allow room for movement to avoid impingement.
I wasn't aware of this until our dear departed HSBBW friend JT pointed that out to me many years ago when my son had surgery for cortacoid impingement.
I am just thinking out loud here and certainly welcome contrary opinions...
Swimming would seem to invoke the fast twitch vs. slow twitch debate. Working on muscles that have long duration timings would seem counter productive to trying to build fast twitch, explosive strength. The same reason sprinters don't do distance training.
On another note, especially for pitchers, right to left balancing of muscle tone is somewhat irrelevant. Anterior to posterior balance is what is thought to be the most injury preventative.
Regards,
Chip
Swimming would seem to invoke the fast twitch vs. slow twitch debate. Working on muscles that have long duration timings would seem counter productive to trying to build fast twitch, explosive strength. The same reason sprinters don't do distance training.
On another note, especially for pitchers, right to left balancing of muscle tone is somewhat irrelevant. Anterior to posterior balance is what is thought to be the most injury preventative.
Regards,
Chip
I did not intend to indicate that a kid should be swimming and playing baseball past age 13 or so, sorry if that is how you took it. I am no expert on this either and do not intend to present myself that way here. I can simply relate our experience and he did not continue swimming past 11 or 12. My son always threw hard for a kid his size and and age (played UP most of his playing days) and did/has not experience/d arm problems. There are many things that impact or cause injuries and as pointed out, swimmers also have problems. Nor can I debate the difference between developing fast twitch vs slow twitch muscles from swimming. I also suspect that swimming does improve "anterior to posterior balance" more than other "training" you can get kids up to 12 to routinly use. My instinct tells me that it would not impact a 12 and under youth anyway because they are still developing and growth plates usually aren't completly fused yet either. But for overall health and development up to 12 I believe swimming to be the best training strategy.
I guess I see a lot more benefit for kids up through 12U developing more balanced strength across their youg bodies (stronger back, chest, shoulder and overall core strength; hmmm, that sounds like something a pitcher does need) than negative impacts mentioned here. I am not advocating to continue to swimm and play baseball from 13 and up. By this time you should be deciding if you are pursuing one or the other because of the over-use concerns cited above. My son chose baseball, much to the dismay of his swim coach. I saw some of his peers drop out of baseball due to arm and shoulder problems. Upon talking with some of the Dad's I knew, it seemd the biggest difference across the other kids and mine was the others did not swim. I know, it is a leap to draw such conclusions and what works for one may not for another. I am simply relating my experience.
I guess I see a lot more benefit for kids up through 12U developing more balanced strength across their youg bodies (stronger back, chest, shoulder and overall core strength; hmmm, that sounds like something a pitcher does need) than negative impacts mentioned here. I am not advocating to continue to swimm and play baseball from 13 and up. By this time you should be deciding if you are pursuing one or the other because of the over-use concerns cited above. My son chose baseball, much to the dismay of his swim coach. I saw some of his peers drop out of baseball due to arm and shoulder problems. Upon talking with some of the Dad's I knew, it seemd the biggest difference across the other kids and mine was the others did not swim. I know, it is a leap to draw such conclusions and what works for one may not for another. I am simply relating my experience.
I had a lengthy discussion with a summer league coach who, while in Colorado, led a HS team to a state title. The whole team swam together in the off season and he's convinced it was a major key to his player’s health and success.
quote:Swimming would seem to invoke the fast twitch vs. slow twitch debate. Working on muscles that have long duration timings would seem counter productive to trying to build fast twitch, explosive strength. The same reason sprinters don't do distance training.
Then why is distance running such a big thing for pitchers?
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I'm not sure about the swimming idea. It seems like a great idea because it can help with symmetry and it really is good exercise. But the risk of impingement, tendinitis, and other shoulder pathologies does raise some concern.
Now with that said, at age 8-9-10, etc I would have a hard time telling a kid he can't do anything within reason. Excessive swimming can be a problem, but what isn't?
I do know that two JC baseball programs in our area use swimming as a substantial part of their fall conditioning program. I don't know the details of which strokes, etc.
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Well if they're anything like this team out of Seattle I'd say it's most likely a two stroke...
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- "I don't know the details of which strokes."
Well if they're anything like this team out of Seattle I'd say it's most likely a two stroke...
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A few schools my son was recruited by, including the school he committed to, use swimming in their physical conditioning program. They use it primarily in the recuperation phase, so the fast twitch/ slow twitch debate is fairly mute- just not doing enough of it to count toward that. They are not putting alot of yardage in, just getting in to keep the body loose. It is primarily freestyle, backstroke, and some simple exercises using water as the resistance. Again, the approach is to stretch out, not necessarily workout. There is an article somewhere on UF's swimming program on their website. Their trainer was a former swimmer. I believe it is Brian Johnson who is mentioned using swimming while on the Cape this past summer. I am a former swimmer and coach. Of course swimmers can have similar rotator cuff/ shoulder issues (Brooke Bennett) brought on by intensive training as well. That is why they also use conditioning programs for prehab. The swimming yardage pitchers complete for conditioning is minimal compared to a competitive swimmer's program. I have always encouraged my son to get in the pool the day after he pitches. Just to swim a few easy laps and putter in the water.
quote:Originally posted by AL MA 08:
I did not intend to indicate that a kid should be swimming and playing baseball past age 13 or so, sorry if that is how you took it.
2013 son quit competitive swimming at 12 because that was when the time demands of the swim team became too great to allow him to play other sports too. That seems to be a very common time for boy swimmers to quit.
Yea Blue10, that is what happened to mine too. He liked the competitive swimming a lot but like baseball more! 
Pitch count.... who needs them?
I have a grandson who is a swimmer... He doesn't need pitch counts!
I have a grandson who is a swimmer... He doesn't need pitch counts!