pitch counts and dealing with coaches about it

Your son's coach is an idiot and shouldn't be given responsibility to care for the health and well-being of young children. I would strongly advise to cease any and all loyalty to a coach like this if he is not willing to quit being pigheaded and risk the physical injury of young people for a baseball game. 

 

I know you don't know me, but I don't throw around words like idiot very often. If all of this is true (which I assume it to be unless I hear differently), this coach is an idiot.

 

All of the game situation stuff is meaningless.  You, as a parent, should not interject with a coach during a game.  That said, you, as a parent of a pitcher should make sure his arm is being properly protected.  You should have a pre-arranged agreement with any coach your son plays for regarding proper restrictions on pitch counts and consecutive days.  One of the most common problems with youth travel is the one you are describing where a player throws a fair number of pitches one day and is then asked to come back and throw more the next.  It should not happen.  

 

As your son moves forward, he will also be asked to play with multiple teams at the same time.  This takes even more communication and coordination as well as the ability to say no.  You will also need to be cognizant of the commitment your son is making when he agrees to play with a team.  If they sign him on as a pitcher, they will expect him to be available to pitch when his turn comes up and not throw out a surprise that he just pitched x number of innings for another team two days ago.  Let the coaches coach but not at the expense of your son's arm.  Be sure to have good open dialog in advance to assure there are no misunderstandings later.

 

PS - I just saw JH post as I was typing.  Sometimes when a coach declares himself as "old school" and wants the players to be tougher (particularly in regards to pitchers), this is code for "I refuse to take responsibility or blame for ignoring arm care protocol". 

Run from this coach. "It will make him tougher" is nothing but ignorance. Don't worry about pitching strategy due to his age. Worry more about how he is used and his health. He has plenty of time to learn how to pitch.

Without a doubt, GO.  As RJM said, don't walk away, run away.

 

The one thing I think we pretty much all agree about on this website is that you should speak up when your son's health is at issue.  This is one of those cases.  The coach obviously does not care about the kids health.  He obviously doesn't want to listen to you.  I agree with JH as well, the guy sounds like an idiot.  He might be a good guy, but if he is not concerned with your son's health and what your wishes are in regard to that, he's an idiot and you should not have your son playing for him.

 

If this continues and your son winds up with arm problems, you will never forgive yourself.  It's already happening to other kids on the team.  Take the coaches advice, leave and don't go back.

Run.....run fast....run far....and don't look back.  100+ pitches for ANY 11 year old....regardless of the reason or when he threw last or when he's throwing again.  Trust me from a guy who had a son in the same situation (playing multiple teams) you'll need to keep an eye on it...even if the coaches are good.  The coaches don't know when/where he's thrown last.  You'll need to make it clear that you'll update them...and they'll need to respect what you say with regard to pitch counts and how often he's throwing.  If your son is a good pitcher, you'll find someone willing to take care of him...it may take a while, but there are good coaches out there.

From a coach's perspective...I agree completely. I wouldn't play for that guy (assuming your side of the story is completely accurate).

 

My biggest problem with all the pitch count/inning rules is that somehow it's ok to throw back to back days.

 

 

rookie,

 

I understand your pain, and have seen this unfortunately way too often...coaches chasing the almighty cheap plastic trophy, that will jeopardize the health of an 11 year old should never be allowed to call themselves"coach"....

 

Tournament formats at that age are set up for abuse...kids are allowed to throw a maximum number of outs, or innings, or no pitching restrictions at all.  I'll even submit to you that pitch counts are worthless, unless an understanding of how pitch counts can be deceiving.

 

Recently my son threw two innings....not too dissimilar to what you described, no runs scored....but for whatever various reasons the pitch count was high....playing in a very high profile showcase against one of the best teams in the US.  The goal was for him to throw up to 100 pitches (this is a 6'2 / 180 lbs. LHP)...that would be his only game for the weekend...no other pitching.  First two innings he was over 50 pitches, allowed no runs, but more importantly the opposing pitcher had a 7 pitch first inning, and 11 pitch second inning (geez can someone take a pitch please!)...it was over 100 degrees, and when Jr. took the mound for the third inning, I could see he was laboring....coach saw it too, and he finished the 3rd inning in 17 pitches, and was done for the day.  Others that were just counting pitches would have said he was only at 69 pitches, why can't he keep pitching? 

 

Take the advice of others above...run like hell, and don't look back.  Cabbagedad had great advice....have the conversation with the coach "BEFORE" you join any team on how they manage the health of their pitchers...a proactive approach will save future disappointment for your son, and not put you in a position to march up to the dugout during a game to protect your son. 

 

Also keep in mind that pitch counts, innings, allowable outs thrown over a weekend are all useless unless you take into account other variables...not all innings, outs, and pitch counts are created equal!

All good advise!

 

One thing to consider.  Nearly all pitchers that end up with TJ surgery were first diagnosed with tendinitis.  

Thanks this is all good advice.  I guess our long history with the coach and my friendship with him as well clouded my judgement and we never laid ground rules.  

 

My sons elbow issue cropped up last spring over a year ago during a very cold early season game where they didn't warm up well.   We did go to a well known coach a few hours  away from our home in Houston later that spring and his staff advised us to make 2 minor tweaks that they thought would lead to less stress on the elbow and that turned out to be great input.  

 

Thanks again for the advice this is a great place to go for my son as this is all new to me as well.   Sports and baseball have changed tremendously since I was a kid growing up. 

rookie,

 

1^st of all, please take the advice offered you! We all argue here about a lot of different things, and 10 years ago the advice might not have been so one-sided. But a lot has been learned by a lot of people, and on this topic I don’t think in today’s world you’ll find many people considered at all knowledgeable who would give different advice.

 

For many years I’ve been involved with pitch counts, what they mean, how they should be applied, how they should be interpreted, and many other things about them as well. Like many others, my opinion on the subject has changed with my knowledge, so I’ll offer you this. As others have noted, there are other factors than pitch counts you should be taking into consideration. I’ve generated a report taking some of those things into consideration, and I offer it to you as a way to keep track of your son, if nothing else.

 

It may look complicated, but all I’ve really done is take some of the concepts others in this thread have already alluded to, and put them in a form someone can look at rather than guess about. If you look at the attachment, its pretty easy to see what’s going on. There is some basic information I track for each pitcher. I log the date of each performance, along with the team he faced, the number of pitches he threw, the number of pitches he threw with runners on(WRO), the number of batters he faced, and the number of batters he faced WRO.

 

Once I establish what I want the number of pitches to be based on for the report, normally its 80, but these numbers are for 7 inning games, from those 6 pieces of data, I’m able to have the computer compute everything on that report.

 

Day’s rest is simple. Subtract the date from the previous date and you have day’s rest. You don’t need a program like mine. It works in spreadsheets too.

 

Pitches per inning isn’t a very valuable number to me, but it does give a sense of the pitcher’s workload. Most people accept 15 PPI as “normal”.

 

PAP, or Pitcher Abuse Points is an metric that was dreamed up back in the ’90’. I won’t go into its history, but I will tell you how to compute it. Subtract the number of pitches thrown for the game from the number of pitches you choose to base your report on. In this case I choose 80. If the number of pitches is less than that number, there isn’t any PAP score. If there is, you cube the number. As you can see for the 1^st pitcher, his last outing he threw 83 pitches. 83-80 = 3, and 3*3*3 = 27.

 

The other numbers all have something to do with whether or not there were runners on. The reason for that is, there’s more stress or pressure on the pitcher, and I’m just giving it a value.

 

Percentage of Pitches with Runners on is pretty simple. Divide the number of pitches WRO by the total number of pitches.

 

Pitches After Factor might be a bit confusing, but its really simple. You first compute the pitches WRO times the factor, which I’ve set at 1.25. IOW, I’m saying pitching with runners on is 25% more stressful than pitching with no runners on. Then to get the pitches after factor, all you need to do is add the pitches with no runners on to the pitches multiplied by the 1.25 factor, and you have it.

 

Once you have that number, you compute the Stress PAP the same way you compute PAP. Subtract the number of pitches for the run, 80, from the Pitches After Factor, then cube it. Using that same 1^st player, you can see its 86-80 = 6 * 6 * 6 = 216. Its really simple math.

 

BP Stress is PAP / Pitches and BP Stress by Runners is Pitches After Factor / Pitches After Factor.

 

I don’t want you to get the idea that I’m some kind of guru or have any standing as an expert, but if you’re interested in your son and how he’s used by his coaches, this report is easy to do and will give you a little more insight to make parental decisions with.

 

Good luck!

Thanks again for all of the replies.  This further confirms my decision to say something.  I really didnt expect it to blow up like it did given our relationship but in the end perhaps its for the best.

This coach is abusing your son and it's a shame anyone will play for him at all.  It's sad the ignorance of adults who refuse to advance with current medicine.

Ask this "coach" for the medical research that backs up his "old school" approach where pitch counts are irrelevant and kids need to tough it out.  Then ask him if he will take responsibility for the medical care your son will need within the next 10 years to fix the damage cause by that "old school" approach.  This coach is abusing your son, file a complaint with the organization that hired him or with the DA.

 

One other thing, it's not just pitchers that can suffer overuse injuries.  Often the kids who pitch are also the kids who play short stop, catcher, 3rd, or outfield.  Once you've hit the pitch limits as a pitcher you need arm rest and not catch the next game.  My son catches and pitches and we have to monitor his arm care closely (especially in tournaments).

Make sure your son follows a throwing/pitching program with some consistency.  Kids are playing a lot of games and throwing a lot of pitches.  They need a consistent pregame and postgame routine to follow to minimize risk.  "Old school" pitchers threw a lot of pitches but also had more down time than kids now.  Integrate a running program to help maintain strength throughout the season and flush out the soreness after pitching.  Doing other activities with his throwing arm can also increase soreness, playing basketball, throwing a football, etc...things that require the muscles in the arm to fire in a different sequence than it does while pitching.  Does not mean he cant do those things, just needs to build consistency in his routine and implement a conditioning program.  Good luck

You simply need to upfront tell the coach your kid's pitch count limits. That's all there is to it.

 

This will end the drama.

You will find debate on the pitch count topic.  Some say pitch less some say pitch more, some say pitch less - throw more.  However, I don't think you will find anyone who would advocate an 11 yo pitcher throwing 100 pitches in a game, or pitch heavily on back to back days.

 

I will say you aren't dealing with  good coach. Not just because he is throwing a pitcher too much... that is a symptom.  The real issue is that he is not a good enough coach to develop sufficient pitching for tournaments.

 

Regardless of the injury issue, how does a coach expect to win if his pitchers are used up before the championship even starts?

 

My son didn't really start pitching until 13U, but he has never thrown more than 82 pitches in a game.  That was a complete game in pool play at a 14U national tournament. That was on a Sunday. He didn't pitch again until the semi-finals on Friday. Our starting pitcher in the finals hadn't thrown since Monday.  The starting pitcher for the other team was starting his third game in two days. He was out of gas, and didn't get out of the first inning.

RobT,

 

Your exactly right,  the team really only had 2 dependable pitchers,  and that has led to overuse of both of them.   Its also an issue with summer baseball and kids in our area,  they go to camp, vacation etc and you just don't have the full team at very many events.  

 

I dont know if my son will end up being a pitcher as he really loves hitting,  wants to hit daily,  sometimes twice a day,  but I have tried to convince him he needs to work on both as you just dont know what will happen.  

Originally Posted by Rob T:

…I will say you aren't dealing with  good coach. Not just because he is throwing a pitcher too much... that is a symptom.  The real issue is that he is not a good enough coach to develop sufficient pitching for tournaments….

 

I don’t disagree that a good coach will spread out even the toughest of pitching demands, but I wonder, is it really necessary to develop pitchers, or is it enough to just be willing to put kids on the mound who aren’t the best pitchers on the team?

 

Generally, when talking about pitchers and how good or bad they are, people are really talking about velocity. So coaches are looking to put a kid on the mound they feel is a hard thrower, or at least the hardest thrower they have that’s available. That’s why the “best” pitchers get overused/abused. How many times has anyone heard of a kid who throws a lot of strikes but doesn’t have much velocity getting overused/abused? But is it really necessary for a pitcher to have great velocity to have success, and is it really necessary to “develop” a lot of pitchers?

The coach has to at least realize that you can't get it done with just one or two "stud" pitchers.  You need complimentary pitchers that you can put on the mound and know that they will do an acceptable job.  Maybe they don't have the velocity or command of your studs, but they can still do a passable job.  Those are the guys you need to develop. They don't develop if you never use them in games, and don't work with them in practice.

 

The 14U team I mentioned before had ten different pitchers start games at some point during the summer. The pitcher that was maybe #9 of that group started against the #2 ranked team in the country (for whatever that's worth), and pulled out a win. Two of the middle of the pack pitchers held one of the top national teams to a one hit game.

 

You have to equip them to succeed and then give them the opportunity to do so.

 

 

Eleven year olds don't need training, conditioning and program routines. All they need is to not overdo any one sport as to cause damage to their rapidly growing body. Why suck all the fun out of sports for a preteen by putting him on a program? The only program a preteen needs is to be tossed out the door and told to do something active.

although I agree with many of the points listed above, and they are great points I do want to point out that we have gotten away from regimented old school throwing programs which include long toss and extended pitch counts. We have to remember that in warmer weather we are able to extend our pitchers because of the lack of duress on their arms. As long as we are not talking about curveballs and sliders at such a young age we have become way too specialized and are actually helping our younger pictures get Tommy John surgery's by over protecting them. I myself was a walk on at a small Division III school and in four years logged over 375 successful innings. I have continued to throw in men's leagues since  and throw twice a week, usually complete games either seven or nine innings each. 

My unmarried sister has a 13-year-old son who I have taken the active role as baseball coach and mentor. Since Christian has been eight years old we have thrown on a nightly basis beginning with just 20 minute catches and after he turned 11 going with 60 to 75 Pitch bullpens followed by 15 minutes of long toss every other day. Now at 13, Christian usually throws every Saturday game one followed by a Tuesday or Thursday night game in which he generally goes no more than 90 pitches midweek as his Saturday games sometimes extends into 120 pitches. We do make sure that on Monday Wednesday and Friday he long tosses and throws a flat ground of the less than 45 pitches. Although his arm is fatigued often, we are training him to get through the dead arm period as successfully as possible to young age so he learns how to deal with it when he becomes a professional. He is currently pitching on two teams which I do feel is a bit much but it is making him a fantastic competitor. At the recent state tournament he threw 103 pitches on Saturday then on his local travel team through another 60 pitches on Sunday closed the Tuesday state tournament game and fired a complete game on Thursday only throwing 96 pitches. The only time I've had an issue was last year as a 12-year-old when his coach allowed him to pitch all of game one on Saturday throwing 103 pictures then four innings in game two because they only had nine players throwing additional 77 pitches then his full travel program insisted it was his data pitch on Thursday and they only had nine players and the coach allowed him to go 11 innings throwing 153 pitches. To me that was very excessive and the coach should've lifted him after the eighth inning when he was already at 115. 

You know, at first I was thinking that you were crazy, then I got to that nugget and realized I fell into the trap.

 

Kudos sir, well played.

Thank you for your belief and support for Christian. The truth is that we have big league bloodlines in our family and it happens to be a HoFer and this was the program that he utilized. Christian's fastball is already topping at 78. I understand that this is completely against the philosophies that many of you share, and I am not recommending that people follow this program or even agree with me, however, my family member is a member of the professional baseball hall of fame and I myself have never experienced an arm injury...knock on wood.

what is the purpose of Long Toss?    do other position players work on long toss as well?

 

Long toss is a widely popular method of arm strengthening, and yes.

 

We have "been there, done that" but differently.  In 9U my boy (primary position is SS) was asked to pitch a lot early in the season since he got kids out.  He had 67 (! not 100!) pitches in a March tournament and I told the coach to limit him to 40 pitches per weekend from there on for the year.  We moved to another the team the next year and a condition to playing on the team was that my boy would have a 35 pitch limit per weekend. 

We are now 11U and we play the same kind of tournaments you probably do, Super NITs, TBS and a PG tournament so I get competitive ball if you can call it that at 11U.

I have gone through this short history only to give you a brief example of what to do.  Make it a condition to joining a team.  Let the coach find more pitchers.

One more thing.  Your boy does not need to be a part of this.  Just tell the coach what the limit will be in order for your boy to join the team then tell your boy what it is.  Tell, don't ask or be equivocal.

History is that the young "fireballer" is asked to pitch way too much.  First, you want to be on a team with a lot of pitchers.  Then a team where you're kid is not the best pitcher.  Find a coach that knows what he is doing. 

 

Remember, LL pitch counts are just guidelines.  Going over the count on occasion does not doom your kid (although 100+ at 11 is too much).  The real question is how does the kid feel.  If he is tired or sore, then scale back. 

 

"Amazingly its mostly his little league friends that we have seen with issues."

That is because most LL kids have no offseason conditioning.  When my kid started travel ball at 10, I was worried.  The coach had them throwing every other day.  They threw a lot.  I was afraid we would have kids with issues.  For two years, we did not have one arm issue.  Friends teams, who didn't throw as much in the offseason, had issue after issue.  On my kid's team today, they didn't throw a lot in the offseason, but we kept up his routine -- throwing 3 days a week.  So far, so good.  Other kids have had issues.  So, imo, the more he throws (not pitches) the better he'll be.  Good luck.       

 

Originally Posted by Rob T:

The coach has to at least realize that you can't get it done with just one or two "stud" pitchers.  You need complimentary pitchers that you can put on the mound and know that they will do an acceptable job.  Maybe they don't have the velocity or command of your studs, but they can still do a passable job.  Those are the guys you need to develop. They don't develop if you never use them in games, and don't work with them in practice.

 

In that sense, I’ll agree. Its just that in general I find people are much more fearful about what might happen because someone seen as a “weak” pitcher goes to the mound than what actually does happen.

 

The 14U team I mentioned before had ten different pitchers start games at some point during the summer. The pitcher that was maybe #9 of that group started against the #2 ranked team in the country (for whatever that's worth), and pulled out a win. Two of the middle of the pack pitchers held one of the top national teams to a one hit game.

 

You have to equip them to succeed and then give them the opportunity to do so.

 

Agreed. And many times all it takes is the opportunity to pitch.  

First off, the Little League pitch count limits are not guidelines. They are rules, and Little League coaches MUST follow them. The limits were created by some of the world's best doctors who specify in sports medicine. Second off, advising to wait until a kid is tired or sore is literally the exact problem and definition of the overuse so commonly cited in the game. If an 11 year old kid is tired and/or sore from pitching, he has already thrown too much.

 

Advice like this is the main reason why I have a four-inch scar on my elbow. And, it's the most common reason why so many others have the same scar I do. I don't know if I've ever disagreed with anything on this site more than this paragraph.

 

OldSkool2,

 

I sincerely hope nothing but injury free success for your nephew, and all baseball players for that matter, but I sure wish there were some better way to evaluate what you were doing than to just keep doing it and assume the best because of his bloodlines. Sadly though, it’s a rare bird who methodically keeps track of a pitcher’s game experience, let alone what he does in practice.

 

What I’m talking about is, had you meticulously logged all of his workouts, making sure to track all throwing, and by some miracle he made it to the MLHOF with no arm injuries, you’d have a potential gold mine in your grasp. What I’d really like to see is others duplicate, or at least try to do what you were doing. That way it would be possible to see if bloodlines were really the controlling factor, or if it was something else.

 

Personally, I believe luck has a great deal to do with it, but sadly I have no way to prove that either.

I read these discussions and I kind of scratch my head....I'm a high school coach, so I don't have to deal with many of the issues/problems that come from handling 11 or 12 year olds, and I don't coach in the summer so I face (generally) a lot fewer games.

 

What I scratch my head about is the number of parents who seem (in my opinion) a little over the top on pitch counts, and yet on the other hand they push their kids to play on these Tournament teams where pitchers seem to constantly be put at risk.  I mean, if you are that concerned about overuse at age 11, maybe you back off, let your kid play on a local team that plays 20 games and a tournament or two....but no, no, no...my kid HAS to play on this marvelous select team that travels all over and plays 75 games and tournaments where the kids are crunched for pitching.  Just seems like such a wild contradiction.

 

Maybe all these arm surgeries happen not from individual game overuse, but because we have the kids playing so many more games and over so much more time.  Good lord, some of these boys never put their glove down!  I have been coaching for almost 30 years, and I just think that this stuff of having kids do off-season (is there even such a thing anymore?) workouts and more throwing after playing spring, summer and fall ball is just too much.  Maybe not for 16-18 year olds, but at 10, 11, 12?  I think the returns you get from this is negligible for the cost (risk and dollars) you may suffer.

 

As for the poster who suggested a parent should run to the DA or police because of "abuse"?  Give me a break!!! Take your kid off the team if you like, but that kind of hysteria is ridiculous.  

Originally Posted by TCB1:

…What I scratch my head about is the number of parents who seem (in my opinion) a little over the top on pitch counts, and yet on the other hand they push their kids to play on these Tournament teams where pitchers seem to constantly be put at risk.  I mean, if you are that concerned about overuse at age 11, maybe you back off, let your kid play on a local team that plays 20 games and a tournament or two....but no, no, no...my kid HAS to play on this marvelous select team that travels all over and plays 75 games and tournaments where the kids are crunched for pitching.  Just seems like such a wild contradiction.

 

Great point, but don’t scratch your head too much. Its really pretty simple. For decades parents didn’t care at all, and now they might worry a bit too much without reason, But give me the latter any day! The pendulum is swinging, and as more and more knowledge becomes available, the philosophies of today will be tempered more and more.

 

Maybe all these arm surgeries happen not from individual game overuse, but because we have the kids playing so many more games and over so much more time.  Good lord, some of these boys never put their glove down!  I have been coaching for almost 30 years, and I just think that this stuff of having kids do off-season (is there even such a thing anymore?) workouts and more throwing after playing spring, summer and fall ball is just too much.  Maybe not for 16-18 year olds, but at 10, 11, 12?  I think the returns you get from this is negligible for the cost (risk and dollars) you may suffer….

 

I haven’t met many who truly know a lot about the topic who believe individual game overuse leads to many immediate problems. But who does common sense say is more at risk, a pitcher who throws 60 pitches once a week for 45 weeks a year, and for 8 years, or one who throws 100 pitches, on the same schedule? No matter what anyone believes, there really are only so many bullets in the gun. You can use ‘em early on when they mean little, or you can use ‘em later.

I believe if the experts ever come to a conclusion on what causes arm injuries the amount of pitching preteens do while their bodies are rapidly growing and developing will be a big part of the reason.

 

When I played LL and all stars (all there was for preteen baseball) hardly anyone pitched until they were eleven or more likely twelve. The age range was nine or ten to twelve. Now there are teams for every age level. Kids pitch at 9u, 10u, 11u and 12u. With all stars my LL season was thirty games. A travel season is typically 50-75 games. That's a long season and a lot of pitching for a preteen.

 

When I was a kid fall ball was football.

I think you misunderstood my post (which is admittedly unclear). 

 

As far as I know, only Little League has pitch count limits as rule (from an organization that lets 12 yo kids snap off curve after curve on national tv).  For other organizations/teams they are guidelines.  Even LL allows a kid to go over, to finish the current hitter.  So he could conceivably pitch 10+ more pitches than "allowed."  Pitch counts are a good place to start, but aren't the total equation.    

 

And that is my point.  What if the kid is fatigued after 50 pitches?  What do his mechanics look like?  There are many factors.  If you look at the latest statements a big concern these days is year round throwing and competition.     http://www.asmi.org/research.p...on=positionStatement

 

 

 

Gotcha. I agree that everyone is unique and that the rules in place are certainly not THE answer. But I do feel as though they are a big step in the right direction.

 

I also agree about the excessive use of breaking pitches. While I am aware that research indicates breaking balls are not more harmful to the arm than fastballs, a child's ability to maintain repeatable body control is much less than an adult's ability. Inconsistent mechanics are more common with pitches that are less natural, and therefore more harmful.

 

Don't have any advice - I am approaching this issue with my son and reading this topic thouroughly.  My son has now tried out for two select teams.  Both of the coaches pulled out a radar gun - on a 10 year old.  What is it really gonna tell them?  This really bothers me becuase now I wonder if they are gonna be like the coach the OP is dealing with.

The gun can be a teaching tool and a means to evaluate development. If they want to work on a changeup, for example, they may be using it to look at the difference in speeds between that and a fastball, so they can see what they need to work on.

Matt,

 

This was a basic tryout.  They were not even throwing from a mound. I could see it if it was his pitching instructor that he goes to sometimes.  It really bothered me.  My son even told me the numbers were bogus.  He was struggling since he was pitching to batters from flat ground. 

When my kid was 10, he tried out for a team.  They put a gun on him across the diamond and pitching.  He was 3-5 mph "slower" than some of the players.  Didn't make the team.  Later that year, we beat the snot out of them in the league tournament.  My kid pounded a ball to the 350 foot fence(one or two hops).  So much for mph.