Pitch Counts & Idiot HS Coaches

Pitching abuse is rampant in a lot of places. We've got ours too, all they want to throw is curveballs and sliders. And I mean every pitch!!! Our school has at least one every year that develops arm problems. Why because rather than hire a coach that can set up hitters with several pitches and think ahead in sequences, they take the easy way out and give that job to anybody. Once they see HS hitters whiff at the curve ball thats ALL they call for the pitcher to throw. My advice, unless you have a coach that knows the deal, don't let your kid pitch in HS.

And you're right, they need some governing entity. Otherwise look what you got.

I coach in indiana and would be curious what school or what paper? You can PM me

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to throw well over 100 pitches in his first game out of the box.

So what if it's his first game to be pitching? If he's been throwing since middle of January or so, his arm should be in good shape.

You will never get me to agree with any kind of arbitrary pitch limit. I think there's a lot of BS in it..

Sorry, I don't agree, the whole object is to stretch out for longer and longer outings and build stamina. If pitch counts don't matter why are they used, especially in the beginning? Even MLB pitchers are ready for high pc beginning of season. Weather also plays a big factor.

If the pitcher was throwing close to that count in practice, it may not matter. If he had worked up to that amount, which I doubt, it may not matter.
Have seen too many college pitchers with that count early on, and then sit the bench for few games, wonder why.
Also was mentioned that the pitcher had TJS, which means he hasn't been pitching regularly the past 2 years. This should be a consideration as well.

JMO

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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to throw well over 100 pitches in his first game out of the box.

So what if it's his first game to be pitching? If he's been throwing since middle of January or so, his arm should be in good shape.

You will never get me to agree with any kind of arbitrary pitch limit. I think there's a lot of BS in it..

BD19....Officially, the HS teams in Indiana couldn't start practice until March 16th. This gives most player only a couple weeks to get ready for their first game. I do know that the player had been taking pitching lessons one day per week throughout the winter. Again, 1 day per week. Do you really think that he could have possibly been ready for a 100 pitch outing? If so, you may be one of the coaches the thread is about. IMO

Pastime.....It was at Frankton HS last Tuesday I believe. The article was in the Anderson Herald Bulletin paper.

TPM.....2 days later the coach had him starting in CF in a game. I watched the kid make 3-4 hard throws to Home & 3B during pregame. He also had a few balls during the game that he had to make hard throws on.....it's even more important to limit the PC of a 2-way guy.

How old was he when he had TJ?

What does "well over 100 pitches" equate too?

Were you counting pitches?

Are you indicting his previous coach for the TJ situation?

Cannot the young man work out on his own in addition to his lessons each week?

I agree with TRHit. How do you know he wasn't doing his own workouts apart from the team?

My son took lessons once a week for 6 weeks prior to the season. We also went out and did long toss 3 times a week for a month before tryouts. He was also doing band work and light weights for his shoulders. He was well prepared before the season even started.

If a player doesn't work on his own before the season starts, he will be behind the curve.

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BD19....Officially, the HS teams in Indiana couldn't start practice until March 16th. This gives most player only a couple weeks to get ready for their first game. I do know that the player had been taking pitching lessons one day per week throughout the winter. Again, 1 day per week. Do you really think that he could have possibly been ready for a 100 pitch outing? If so, you may be one of the coaches the thread is about. IMO

If a pitcher is not throwing (not pitching) on his own during the offseason, then he is not going to get anywhere and if he hurts his arm, that's his own fault. All players (and especially pitchers!) should be long tossing 2-3 times per week during the offseason with the exception of probably 4-8 weeks that they should take off.

A large percentage of pitchers are a bunch of babies who constantly complain about anything and everything. If you take care of your arm and you condition your arm properly, you will never have a problem.

Even a 100 pitches was too much, IMO for a first outing.
Tossing and conditioning your arm is seperate than pitching well over 100 innings your first game. In son's first HS game, after working up to a pitch count in practice of 40-50, the coach kept him in close to 90+ pitches. Even the scouts in attendance said he was in too long for his first outing.

Sportsfan, the player returned two days later in a game. So in the end if he has issues, who is to blame. There is a certain responsibility that lies on everyone.

It is all relative to what the young man has been doing prior to the start of the season---we do not know all the details--and 100 pitches can be different for every pitcher and a lot depends on the stress of the 100 pitches---30 pitches can be too much if they are stressful

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Originally posted by TRhit:
It is all relative to what the young man has been doing prior to the start of the season---we do not know all the details--and 100 pitches can be different for every pitcher and a lot depends on the stress of the 100 pitches---30 pitches can be too much if they are stressful

The quote above is absolutely correct. It is different for every pitcher and every situation. Some will get themselves into condition and be ready for the season and what a coach may be willing to put the kid through, others will not. What if the kid is a multiple sport athlete? He wouldn't have had a chance to be throwing more that a day or 2 per week.

In this case, he was not ready for a 100 pitch outing...nor are a lot of kids their first outing of the year......my point for starting the thread. Way too often you read the paper and see a kid that went 6-7 inning with 90-120 pitches their first outing. Those pitch counts are just way too much that early in the season in my opinion. Championships are won at the end of the season, not the first game of the season. Why not take it easy and build up a kids arm and make sure you have him healthy come tournament time?

I guess I'm glad my sons play for the coaches that they do and not a couple of you who are in favor of taking chances.....I don't think we would have a very good coach/parent relationship

As one pro scout said to me about this subject after hearing about the game: "you see it all over the country. Most HS coaches don't have a clue.....I'm the sheriff in this town and we are going to do it my way".

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Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
How old was he when he had TJ?

I think it was his freshman season....he's a junior this year.

TR....the quote in the paper said the coach had him on an 80 pc. He admitted that he left him in and exceeded that # by 30 some pitches.

No I was not counting pitches. As I said to start with I read about it in the paper.

Not indicting anyone for the TJ. Just found it relevant and worth consideration when allowing the kid to go over 100 pitches his first outing of the season.....don't you?

I suppose any young man can work out as much as they want on their own. Does that in itself relieve the coach of any and all responsibility. The coach is the responsible adult in this situation and should make decisions based on the wellbeing of his players 1st. It's just HS baseball and it was just the 1st game of the season.

First I don't think we need to rely on a newspaper for the entire information on this situation. That includes what the coach said. There have been many times what happened in the game is vastly different than what ended up in the paper.

Secondly if we are going to throw some blame around then let's throw some at the state associations that govern each state. Many of them only allow for a two week preseason. I know North Carolina is that way and pretty sure Indiana has a two week preseason as well. If a kid isn't throwing on his own there is no way in the world a pitcher can get ready in that amount of time. You take a kid who comes out on the first day who has not picked up a baseball since the summer ended he won't be prepared to throw 40 pitches in the first game. If you have a two week preseason and are a pitcher you better have some sort of throwing program going on before the first day of practice. That includes those who are participating in basketball, wrestling or other winter sports. Only problem is that same organization that says you only have two weeks of preseason also says coaches cannot have any baseball contact with players before the preseason starts.

My opinion over the whole arm injury issue is that it has little to do with the temperature outside as the temperature inside the body. What I'm getting at is the body has it's own temperature and when the body is warm then the body is loose. If you are pitching on a night that the temperature is 35 degrees then that is not the problem. The problem is when the body temperature has cooled off then the body is no longer loose.

The next issue is endurance. If a pitcher is in shape then his mechanics has less chance of breaking down as a pitcher who is not in shape.

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Officially, the HS teams in Indiana couldn't start practice until March 16th. This gives most player only a couple weeks to get ready for their first game.

In our state tryouts can't start until March. The first game was allowed on the 20th. All the players had been throwing since January.

In the NE, the kids dont get the kind of pre-season that a lot of others get, just because of the weather, and the need to get the season over before school ends. The solution to this issue is very simple. The player walks off the mound and says "Coach, Im all done" If Coach has an issue, take off your shirt, give it to the Coach, and go get ready for summer ball. Problem solved. Many of the scouting reports I read from early in the season have top shelf pitchers going 30-50 pitches to start off, and that is in the warmer weather. Are all HS coaches idiots? No, of course not, but a great many are, and youve got to know this and be ready to deal with it before you go in. If you are not going to take care of yourself, you cant expect a HS coach to. With all fo this said, it is up to the player to get ready for the season as best as he can, which means some hard work in the off-season.

In terms of a pitch count, I think it is based on an individual. Some can go more than others. I think some of it is genetic and a lot of it is conditioning.

I have never had a tried and true formula for figuring out days rest. Generally, I would say if you go to your personal pitch count limit, you should take at least 4 full days of rest before you hit the mound again.

My son is a 2012 pitcher throwing for our varsity team and I can trust what he says in terms of when he is tired. I am also in a fortunate situation right now where I trust our coach to handle the situation. He has taken my son out on a couple of occasions because if he went the next inning, he would have exceeded a reasonable pitch count. He has also given him plenty of rest between starts. I feel pretty good about the situation.

In terms of letting him grow up, I think HS is the time to do that. You should talk to him about his limits and how to handle himself when he gets to that point. He should handle it himself. UNLESS the coach ignores him and puts him in situations where he is potentially causing injury to himself. I have always said that when it comes to your childs safety, a parent always has a right to say something. But only after the kid has attempted to work it out on their own.

As recommended by the National Pitching Association:
Starting Pitchers
9-12 60-75 pitches per week/15-20 per inning
12-16 75-90 pitches per week/15-20 per inning
17-21 90-105 pitches per week/15-20 per inning
*once total has been reached, no mound work for two to three days. Flat ground is okay.

Relief Pitchers
9-12 15-45 pitches per game at 15-20 per inning, spread over 2 to 3 games per week, not to exceed 75 total.

13 and older 15-45 pitches per game at 15-20 per inning, spread over 3-5 games per week, not to exceed 90 total.
* If 75 pitches are reached within 3 days, no mound work for next 2 to 3 days. Flat ground work is okay.

Sounds to me like the coach had a reasonable pitch count set up and overdid it in the heat of the moment. It happens. The real issue is if he then backed off over the next week or so to let the kid recover properly?

As far as the TJ goes if he had a partial tear and had rehabbed without surgery then I'd be pretty worried but given that he had surgery I don't think that he's at more risk than other pitchers and possibly at less risk.

In one of Jr.'s games last week, opponent's were cruising along with 5-0 lead. Cold, windy, rainy day. Their pitcher had thrown a good game to that point. In 5th, he struggled a bit with control, walked a batter and we hit a couple balls hard of him. It was obvious to me that he had really lost the zip on his fastball.

As we moved to 6th I turned to parent beside me and said "They shouldn't have left this kid in. Kids tired, top of the order. We're gonna get back in the game right here." He asked how many pitches he'd thrown I looked (I keep electronic stats for team) and said 82. Couple walks, several balls hammered, and it was a 5-4 game before they got the kid out of there.

I tell this little story to illustrate a few points on this obviously hot topic:

1). I saw this kid was done, why couldn't the coaches? Shouldn't they know their kids better than some guy watching the game (me) who is just watching this kid pitch for the first time?

2). I made my observation BEFORE seeing his pitch count. Pitch count could have been 60 or 90 or whatever, it didn't matter because it seemed obvious to me that the kid was starting to labor and he was tired.

I know the whole pitch count debate, and I do believe that each kid should have an upper limit based on the individual. But this too often leads to a double-edge sword. Because a pitcher has established an upper limit, doesn't mean he is always capable of reaching it.

So, IMO too many coaches do not see what they are seeing. Yes, I said see what they are seeing. If a kid has comfortably established a 90 pitch limit, kid starts stuggling around thr 65-70 pitch range, coach says he's fine, he can go 90 pitches. Coach obviously is not seeing what he is seeing, and is relying on the pitch count.

Every outing for a pitcher is a different experience. It's the human body and Mother Nature. Tired, streessed from school, girl trouble, parent trouble, mound doesn't suit them, something's tight, really hot, wet, windy, really cold.

Watch your pitchers, not just the pitch itself. Know your pitchers. Really know your pitchers-style, personality, mental, physical, what's going on with them. Pitching for teenagers is all those things and more. And its really hard!

Most of our kids will pitch til their arm falls off if we let them. That is part of why they are also very good players. They have heart and the desire to do whatever it takes to win. We as coaches and adults are the last line of defense protecting them from themselves. Let's hope that more coaches can "see what they are seeing" and do the right thing for our kids.

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I know the whole pitch count debate, and I do believe that each kid should have an upper limit based on the individual. But this too often leads to a double-edge sword. Because a pitcher has established an upper limit, doesn't mean he is always capable of reaching it.

On the other side of the coin, pitchers know what their "limit" is and fall apart as they reach that limit when they are cruising right along and would be fine if they didn't know they were close. It's a mental thing..

There is a lot of truth in that statement Bulldog.

Why would a pitcher know what his pitch count is during the game? Why would a coach tell them in an ongoing game? Why would a pitcher ask about pitch count during the game? If a pitcher is worried about his pitch count, he's probably not cut out for the job. Leave that to the coaches.

Jr. has never asked about his pitch count. Not before, during, or after a game. He goes out, he pitches, coach says he's done, he's done. If he has any problems, he lets coach know. He worries about the guys in the batter's box, coaches worry about the pitch counts.

I don't know about that. For my son, I don't know if he knows his pitch count during a game, but he does afterward. He asks the coach and tells me. He pitches HS Varsity.

I know for Tom Seaver, he did an interview on MLB.com where he talks about pitch counts and he was VERY aware of his pitch count during the game. Here is a link to the interview:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video...?mid=200903313995573

Very good interview by the way.

Tom Seaver is great. Have been a big fan going way back. Somehow I think baseball has under utilized him since he retired.

I understand what you are saying, but Tom Seaver was a professional pitcher. These are young (12-18 mostly) pitchers we are talking about. They are still learning the game, learning how to pitch, growing, maturing, learning about their bodies, and I don't think that pitch count should be in their heads during a game. I think it can lead to what Bulldog and Coach May pointed out above. And I don't anything wrong with knowing your pitch count after the game-in fact that's a stat for a pitcher just like any other.

All I'm saying is that a young pitcher shouldn't be worrying about his pitch count during a game.

You're probably right. Like I said, I don't think my kid knows till he's done. I just made the point because you had said your son didn't know before, during or after the game. I really don't think my son knows or cares during the game, but he likes to know after. I like to know after just to kind of keep an eye on things.

Seaver was great. I grew up a Mets fan and he was great. Very interesting to hear one of the greats from back in the day to talk about pitch counts, mechanics, strategy and all that. I thought it was a great interview.

Yeah, bballman, I also keep up with Jr.'s pitch counts. I rarely mention it too him. Occasionally I do.

Reds fan growing up, sorry O's fan now (although we're coming finally, people will be surprised in the next year or 2).

I think we all could learn a lot by really listening more to some of the great players that played before the 80's, when video's, computers, etc. started coming much more in to play. Before that the players had to watch, listen, learn, analyze, and figure it out. They know how to play the game and play it right.