Pitch Speed

quote:

Baseballdad2016 I think you have it exactly right- 2 1/3 innings is the length of his effectiveness his last two starts.

HAHA - I was talking about my son. I guess the example I gave may have been a bit miss leading. Either way, I agree that a good CU and the occasional CB should be in the mix, but a quality a FB with velocity and good movement is key at this point.

Nothing worse than hearing, "Hey nice change up kid", "thanks, that was my FB".

Best of luck and have a happy 4th.

quote:

Originally posted by KC Dawg:
But he wants to go longer. He wants to compete now. To do so, it means he's going to have to throw off speed more. He's going to have to live on the outside of the plate, keep the ball down, and throw his change up and curve for strikes. It doesn't mean that he's going to stop working on increasing his fastball velocity. Heck, he'll still throw it a lot more than the other two pitches combined. But throwing more curves or change ups in the 4 innings a week that he pitches will not have a negative impact on his baseball future...should he even have one.

Throwing more curves and change ups might have a negative impact because he is relying on them more when he should at this age be developing his FB. The first pitch that is measured by a scout or a college coach is the pitchers FB. IMO a mistake that lots of guys make is not concentrating on the most important pitch when it is most important (developing accuracy when younger). Your young son should be using his FB at least 80% of the time everything else secondary to that. You can live on the outside or inside or up or down in the zone spotting the FB accurately, which takes practice. A pitcher really shouldn't be showing all of his stuff until he has to. It's just a good habit to get into.
This would apply to whatever level he is competing.

Understanding your sons cirumstances, perhaps until he gets bigger and stronger, 2-3 innings in relief would be the best option for him. Perhaps if he pitches to contact and let's the defense do their job he will throw less and not be as tired. He can achieve this by using different speeds/location on his FB.

Why do people think that getting on the mound and throwing FBs is not pitching? I just don't get that.

JMO

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Why do people think that getting on the mound and throwing FBs is not pitching? JMO

In all your years of watching your son and the teams your son has played for, have you seen those pitchers who from the first time they pitched, all they did was rare(sp) back and throw it as hard as they can and hope it hit the strike zone and that the batter would swing and miss? These are the guys that they are talking about when they say that.

Yes, there are some of the guys that can throw hard and have command of the strike zone with the fast ball. But there are probably more who can throw very hard but cant hit water if they fell out of a boat. And these guys have no secondary pitch. So when they get into college, their fast ball will be almost worthless. These are they guys people refer to as throwers. All fast ball, not much else.

Chart to convert distance to mph.

http://faculty.tcc.fl.edu/scma.../Java/baseball4.html

A magnus of about 0.6 and an angle of about 35 degrees will tend to be more reasonable for simulating long toss. One doesn't tend to get as much backspin on a throw as on a batted ball so one way to adjust is by reducing the magnus effect. I use 90 mph and a 35 degree angle as producing a 305' throw as my anchor point. The reality is that it is going to vary a fair amount depending on arm slot/spin as well as the breeze having a significant effect from throw to throw.

quote:

Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Why do people think that getting on the mound and throwing FBs is not pitching? JMO

In all your years of watching your son and the teams your son has played for, have you seen those pitchers who from the first time they pitched, all they did was rare(sp) back and throw it as hard as they can and hope it hit the strike zone and that the batter would swing and miss? These are the guys that they are talking about when they say that.

Yes, there are some of the guys that can throw hard and have command of the strike zone with the fast ball. But there are probably more who can throw very hard but cant hit water if they fell out of a boat. And these guys have no secondary pitch. So when they get into college, their fast ball will be almost worthless. These are they guys people refer to as throwers. All fast ball, not much else.

No I didn't see that, where I came from the kids threw hard, and not as hard, but also knew how to pitch. All the hurlers my sons grad year, either got drafted or went to good college programs. I never saw anyone who just stood up on the mound and threw the heat and nothing else unless it was a catcher fill in or a position player needed as an inning filler.

I didn't see that in college either, nor have I seen it in proball. Yes some come in as hurlers and taught how to pitch, some don't make it, but neither do the lower velocity guys who have better secondary than FB stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
No I didn't see that, where I came from the kids threw hard, and not as hard, but also knew how to pitch. All the hurlers my sons grad year, either got drafted or went to good college programs. I never saw anyone who just stood up on the mound and threw the heat and nothing else unless it was a catcher fill in or a position player needed as an inning filler.

I didn't see that in college either, nor have I seen it in proball. Yes some come in as hurlers and taught how to pitch, some don't make it, but neither do the lower velocity guys who have better secondary than FB stuff.

I find it hard to believe that in the four years your son was in high school, there weren't any pitchers around that had nothing but a upper 80's to low 90's fastball with little control and not much of a secondary pitch. We got quite a few of them up here, but we arent South Florida so that may have something to do with it.

And I figure these type of pitchers dont exist in college, or pro ball. They probably are weeded out by then.

There were a couple of guys who would come to the mound and throw heat but not pitchers per say, catchers with arms, etc.

But no, not that I can recall.

I will say that here in south florida there were a lot of guys who had already blown their elbows out, shoulders too, because they pitched and pitched game after game year round and now position players only. That was what was common while he was in HS.

FWIW, I think the craziest hard thrower ever here in south FL was Matt Latos, further up the road Zach Grienke and then Eric Hurley farther north, these guys threw heat and others were afraid of them, but we all know they were not just one trick ponies.

Still seems to be a generalization that hard velo guys don't have command, true the accuracy isn't always there, but the farther you go up the velo ladder thats what happens. Some pitchers tend to want to focus more on the other pitches, but most pitching coaches who know what they are doing won't allow that to happen. It's very easy to fall into the "I feel better and safer with my slower CU or CB" trap.

Mizzou,
There are pitchers like that in college and in pro ball. They either develop there or are weeded out but it is relatively common for that type of pitcher to get a chance out of HS both in the pros and in college. I'm guessing you'll actually see more of them in the pros where there's more time available to develop and achieve the upside.

When the game starts your goal as a pitcher is to get hitters out. What's that going to take? Then that's the game plan. Once you toe the rubber in a game that's the only thing that matters. That's the only agenda. If one ounce of your energy or focus is on anything other than doing what "you have" to do to execute "your stuff" to the best of "your ability" in order to get "guys out" then your decreasing "your ability" to help "your team" win.

For some guys thats pounding the zone with big time velo putting them away with breaking stuff up in the count. For that same guy it might be pitching in reverse to certain hitters and attacking other guys straight up. For that same guy it might mean hard stuff out of the zone and soft stuff in the zone. That guy knows what his stuff is and trusts his ability to execute. What level are you playing? How good are the hitters?

Know "your stuff." Be who you are. Stepping up on the mound and trying to be something your not just because that's what you want to be and think you need to be or others think you should be is a sure fire way to fail. Be who you are and do what you do. The game is not the place to work on trying to be something you wish you were or others want you to be. Its simply time for you to bring to the game what you bring to the game.

The fastball is what works the internal clock of the hitter. It either speeds up that hitters clock. Is right on time with the hitters clock. Or it slows down the hitters clock. Each hitter has different attributes. Some can speed up the clock and still hit. Some can slow down the clock and still hit. And all of them can hit when its right on time.

Every pitcher should work to have the best fastball they can have. Both in velo, movement, command and deception. This is a process that is developed over time. Its the pitch that everything works off of. There is a certain level of velo that must be reached to pitch at every level and that level of velo will vary for each pitcher. How good is your command? How deceptive are you? How much movement do you have? How good is your secondary stuff? How well can you command it?

You work your butt off to be the best you can be. But once you toe the rubber in a game you are who you are. You have what you bring to the rubber that game. Know what that is. Know what gives you the best opportunity to win that day. And then focus on being the best "you are" and be "who you are" and compete.

Some of the best pitchers I have ever seen were not blessed with a great fastball at a young age. A fastball that could carry them. They had to learn how to pitch to get guys out. They had to learn to throw a CU in 2-0 counts. A CB on 0-0 counts for a strike. A CU in 3-1 counts. They worked hard and developed a good fastball over time and once they added that to the arsenal along with the abiltiy to pitch they were outstanding.

Getting up on the hill in a game and pumping the fastball to establish the fastball when you don't have that type of fastball is a sure fire way to not be on the hill long enough to get opportunities to pitch. Were talking about a young kid here who is developing and trying to compete to win. Learn how to pitch and work on developing the best fastball you can. And when its game time simply do what makes you good.

I can tell you a sure fire way to fail. Try to be something your not and then wonder what happened? Know who you are and what gives you the best opportunity to have success. And then bring that to the hill when its game time. Know what you need to work on and then work your butt off to make that your strength. I have seen my share of big arm guys that couldn't pitch. We all have. They will get a lot of opportunities to try and figure it out. We have all seen a lot of guys with average arms who could pitch. They will get opportunities as long as they pitch and get guys out. They won't get opportunities when they try to be big arm guys and stop pitching.

So the bottom line is work to develop the best fastball you can. Know who you are. And bring that to the game. Your job is to get hitters out. When you start thinking its anything other than that your setting yourself up for failure.

One more note. Matt Harrison made the AL All Star team this season. He was a upper 70's LHP as a freshman in HS for me. He had to pitch to have success. He had to learn to pitch. When he was a Jr and was mid to upper 80's he not only could blow the bottom of orders away with his fastball he could pitch in reverse to the middle. When he was a Sr throwing upper 80's to 90-91 he was that same guy. He was not blessed "or cursed" with a cannon arm at a young age he could use as a crutch. He had to learn how to be a pitcher. Now that he can throw mid 90's in his mid 20's and can pitch he is having tremendous success.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Find your way. Be who you are. Know who you are. And game time is not the place to be something you wish you were. Sorry for the very long post. And of course this is just my opinion take it for what its worth. Just an opinion that I strongly believe in.

Great post Coach

Speed and control are the key. As said here before the ones that can't do it get weeded out. My son playing on a college team in the NECBL. All the pitchers throw hard, and throw strikes. Every pitcher on his team hits 90. He was the big dog on his college team, being the closer, sitting at 88-89, topping at 91, on this summer team he is middle of the pack. They have two closers that sit at 94. It is really fun to watch.

Coach May, thank you for saying what I was thinking, but in a much better, more insightful manner. Like you said, "Getting up on the hill in a game and pumping the fastball to establish the fastball when you don't have that type of fastball is a sure fire way to not be on the hill long enough to get opportunities to pitch." On his team, if he doesn't show some success on the hill then he won't be there for long. And if that happens, he won't have the chance to work on his fastball- or any other pitch - in a game.

Don't get me wrong, my son still has some very successful days on the mound. They just aren't as long, or consistent as they used to be. We talked today about him using his change up more he next time he gets on the mound. If he can get that working again I think he will be in much better shape to compete.

Great thread and thanks or all the input from everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by KC Dawg:
if he doesn't show some success on the hill then he won't be there for long. And if that happens, he won't have the chance to work on his fastball- or any other pitch - in a game.

Amen.

All this talk of fastball only is poppycock.

Learn how to pitch. Learn how to get people out.

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Understanding your sons cirumstances, perhaps until he gets bigger and stronger, 2-3 innings in relief would be the best option for him. Perhaps if he pitches to contact and let's the defense do their job he will throw less and not be as tired. He can achieve this by using different speeds/location on his FB.

Why do people think that getting on the mound and throwing FBs is not pitching? I just don't get that.

JMO
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I think most people equal FB to having no control and argue from that point of view. As Roger Clemens once said, FB is a the money ball. I agrees with TPM that the most important pitch to develop is the FB with accuracy. It does not matter what pitch you are pitching, if you are not accurate with CU, CB, slider and etc. you are done anyway. You are going to walk, walk and walk batters.

I don't think most people think FB means no control. Its your foundation that everything works off of. If your fastball is octane for your level then of course its your money ball. If you can paint with it and it has movement of course its your money ball. For some guys its a keep them honest pitch. Set them up pitch. Change the timing pitch. Every pitcher does not go about getting hitters out the same way. And every young pitcher is not the same either.

Of course you want to develop the best fastball you can. Of course you want to develop all your pitches and have the best command you can have. When its game time practice is over. Experiments are over. Its time to get hitters out and for you to do that in the best way YOU can do it. That is not the same way for every pitcher.

My guess is that we all agree that development of FB is critical. Whether one can use it effectively in a game is a different question. It is probably a lot easier to teach a pitcher with 90mph FB how to throw change-up or CB than to teach a pitcher with 80mph FB how to throw a 90mph fastball, assuming all pitching with the same amount of accuracy.

Terrific posts, Coach!

Hope you and the family are doing well!

TPM:

I saw Mat throw against San Diego (his old team, as you probably recall) a couple of weeks ago in San Diego. He's learned how to pitch. His FB now averages only about 91 at cruise speed (I think I recall seeing it top out as high as 93 or 94.), and he's got a killer curve ball to go with an adequate changeup. He pitched great through about 7 innings.

All the best to you and yours, as well!

I've been reading the posts with interest and have actually seen guys who were "throwers" develop into "pitchers" in my son's high school league.

This may be a dumb question, which is probably why I haven't seen it here. What about the guy who did not have the coaching to fully reach their potential as far as velocity? This would be the guy with control who wasn't taught how to properly use his body to achieve the greatest velocity or what type of conditioning he should be doing. Do these guys ever really get a look or are they passed over because of their current FB numbers?

I'm speaking a bit from experience because my son now knows what he has to do to continue increasing his fastball velocity. He just got started late but saw it pay off in his Senior season. We're hoping that better coaching in college (D3) and continued hard work will see his velocity keep rising over the next few years.

IMO FB velocity, movement and command must all be present to pitch at upper levels.

There are high velocity guys without movement and they don't see an inning of work at the college level. Pitches thrown straight will get hit hard no matter the speed.

So while you're young and trying to throw it through the backstop, also work on different grips and begin to learn to throw different pitches that move (and try to command them). It will pay dividends down the road.

Fun topic...the ole EYEBALL GUN will get you every time...its alot like an urban legend...the CRACK of the Catchers mitt ..one dad says..HOLY COW..that had to be 80 mph..2nd dad..that was blazing..easy 80....and finally the Pitchers dad ( loving the sound of what he hearing and not wanting to be a debbie downer)..yeah he prob 80 when he really pushes off ....and that is at an 11 year old tournament LOL...THE LEGEND is formed