Had dinner with our older son last night. Somehow we got on the topic of TrackMan (now pretty common at the triple-A level) for measuring velocity and he was telling me that spin rate is something they really look at these days. So I thought it might be interesting to share a pretty good summary of it and how it might be interpreted.
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justbaseball posted:Had dinner with our older son last night. Somehow we got on the topic of TrackMan (now pretty common at the triple-A level) for measuring velocity and he was telling me that spin rate is something they really look at these days. So I thought it might be interesting to share a pretty good summary of it and how it might be interpreted.
Interesting and all good information. Can it be taught? (higher/lower spin rate)
Good question! I asked that and he said they didn't offer instruction to "improve" it, that its just something they measure and utilize in their evaluation. I am sure if this becomes more important in parents' eyes, there will be instructors claiming they can improve it - and maybe they can?
It just seems that if you can vary the "stiffness" in your wrist, or the authority of the finish with your wrist, you could vary it to some amount between pitches. Not sure if enough to matter to the hitter's eye or if it would add anything to a pitcher's effectiveness.
Isn't fastball spin rate almost 100% correlated to pitch velocity, I. E. The harder you throw the more spin?
Dominik85 posted:Isn't fastball spin rate almost 100% correlated to pitch velocity, I. E. The harder you throw the more spin?
Apparently not - or at least not to the extent one might think. Our son told us which pitcher has the highest spin rate in his organization - its a guy who throws 88-90 (RHP) and because of it (in part) they value him quite highly. He's been in the big leagues (last year) and will get back almost for sure sometime this year. His velo in big league games to date has been 87-91. He strikes out a lot of guys too (over 2/IP in his limited big league time so far and well over 1/IP this year in triple-A). And he looks like he's blowing it by hitters when he does.
I find spin rate and other data collected by TrackMan very interesting. The article attached is from 2013 and there are some more recent articles that provide some additional detail on TrackMan data. I had heard higher spin rate was "better" but the attached article seems to make a good argument for lower spin rate as a way to induce ground balls. Maybe the split fingered fastball (splitter) is the pitch that helps take off some spin.
TrackMan apparently can also pick up on spin angles (not sure I can do this justice with my limited knowledge), but apparently the angle of the spin for pitches, especially non-FB pitches, can greatly impact the effectiveness of the spin imparted. I believe TrackMan can also collect data on delivery angle (this is where tall pitchers demonstrate their down angle) as well as delivery location (how far from plate does pitcher release ball - has to do with "perceived" speed - the closer to the plate the higher perceived speed). Also believe it is the tool that helps illustrate the line of a pitch - think TV where the flight is tracked - helps document movement vertically and horizontally. When someone makes a reasonable inexpensive package available and someone puts together some analysis programs, I'm thinking instructors will jump on this (when did super slo-mo batting analysis become all the rage - I think it was soon after the iPad came out).
I'm betting this analytical tool has a big future.
2017 - I think most or all of that sounds correct. Our son told me that they also look at it to see if a pitcher is releasing his offspeed pitch at the same arm angle and height above the ground as his fastball - that if he is not, its a problem that hitters can pick up on and the pitcher gets that feedback.
I definitely got the impression that clubs are really utilizing this technology right now for evaluation and in some areas for teaching.
JUSTBASEBALL - Please keep us updated on what you are hearing from your son. I'm thinking what you are hearine today is way ahead of most current articles on the subject. You are now the board expert on TrackMan.
Yikes!! I imagine that PGStaff will know a LOT more than me. It is very interesting as you say. But being an engineer, I am fascinated by it.
Wonder how long before dads will be setting up TrackMan in their backyard? 
Dominik85 posted:Isn't fastball spin rate almost 100% correlated to pitch velocity, I. E. The harder you throw the more spin?
No not at all. Easier to teach low spin rate than high. Obviously have to get it off the fingers hard for higher rate. We have had this conversation on here before and the consensus is we are not sure at this point how to increase it. Kyle boddy also said as much. But many ways to decrease effective spin and throw 'sinkers'. Those are the ground ball guys while high spin rate are the strikeout guys.
This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.
I think velocity does have some effect on spin rate, though, and I read somewhere that spin rate divided by velocity is called a Bauer (whether after Trevor or Warren, I don't know), which let's you compare the relative spin rates across velocities (i.e., how "spinny" is it, given it's velocity).
As for spin angles dr Alan Nathan did a nice piece on this. Perhaps I will dig it up again. He terms it 'useful spin'. Basically it works like this - say you throw a four seem fastball. If the spin axis is directly perpendicular to the path of the pitch it will maximize the Magnus effect and stay up. This combined with a high spin rate is what gives the illusion of the rising fastball and gets a lot of swing and miss. Even in youth ball if you do slow mo video vs a. Wry fast pitcher very few good hitters are late when they swing and miss - they are underneath the ball. If your spin axis is on an angle and lower rate the ball gets sink. Since hitters can adjust down during a swing more easily than up (gravity and momentum vs fighting the same) sinker ballets get fewer strikeouts but tons of ground balls and fewer extra base hits.
Dominik85 posted:Isn't fastball spin rate almost 100% correlated to pitch velocity, I. E. The harder you throw the more spin?
I don't think so because my son (Trackman at PG) was in the 97th or so percentile in velo for his class but in the mid-80's percentile for spin rate.
Honestly, my thinking was the same as yours but I guess it depends on wrist action or snap when the pitcher releases the ball.
I would love to see the correlation of hand size (finger length really) and spin rate. Maybe there is none but just curious. And of course there will always be exceptions even if we discover the rule!
While everyone is searching for high velo and high spin rate as the holy grail I just wonder if the smart ones will go for low spin rate which is much easier to manipulate. The higher the average spin rate becomes the more effective sinker ballers should become.
hshuler posted:Dominik85 posted:Isn't fastball spin rate almost 100% correlated to pitch velocity, I. E. The harder you throw the more spin?
I don't think so because my son (Trackman at PG) was in the 97th or so percentile in velo for his class but in the mid-80's percentile for spin rate.
Are the velo numbers and spin numbers from the same cohort? If not, a disproportionate number of lower velo guys with no spin numbers would make the percentile comparison inaccurate.
If you had access to a Trackman during bullpens, you could learn fast enough how to adjust your grip/release to raise/lower your spin rate. Kyle needs to pony up $40k for one of these. 
2020dad posted:As for spin angles dr Alan Nathan did a nice piece on this. Perhaps I will dig it up again. He terms it 'useful spin'. Basically it works like this - say you throw a four seem fastball. If the spin axis is directly perpendicular to the path of the pitch it will maximize the Magnus effect and stay up. This combined with a high spin rate is what gives the illusion of the rising fastball and gets a lot of swing and miss. Even in youth ball if you do slow mo video vs a. Wry fast pitcher very few good hitters are late when they swing and miss - they are underneath the ball. If your spin axis is on an angle and lower rate the ball gets sink. Since hitters can adjust down during a swing more easily than up (gravity and momentum vs fighting the same) sinker ballets get fewer strikeouts but tons of ground balls and fewer extra base hits.
I believe it was on Dr. Alan Nathan's site (Univ of Illiniois - The Physics of Baseball) where I read that article about "useful spin". While he seems to devote more time to ball/bat collisions, he does have some good articles on the pitching side and does have a library of links to articles, including several on TrackMan. Many are a little too technical for me (actually a whole lot too technical), but some of are understandable without a physics degree.
I do think "teaching" will lag somewhat as folks begin to better understand the data and then translate that data into actionable mechanics. Not sure where the poster got the $40K cost, but if someone starts packaging this at around $5K, then you should start seeing them pop up. Of course, someone else will come up with the $599 version so "that" dad can start training his 10 yo in proper mechanics. We'll know it has become a standard when PG upgrades their scoreboards with "RPM" right next to "MPH" LOL.
Speaking only of FB's, logically speaking I would assume faster spin gives late life to a pitch. Meaning the faster the spin the less it slows down from release to plate. Those numbers have to be available and would impact a batters timing the further it is away from "average." In essence a reverse CU. LOL For example, It looks like a 90mph fastball but reaches the plate equal to a typical 93mph FB...
SultanofSwat posted:If you had access to a Trackman during bullpens, you could learn fast enough how to adjust your grip/release to raise/lower your spin rate. Kyle needs to pony up $40k for one of these.
based on the fact many individual professional golfers have purchased these because they feel the data is so valuable, if teams really believe there is benefit and developmental opportunity they will purchase multiple per teams pretty damn fast.
real green posted:Speaking only of FB's, logically speaking I would assume faster spin gives late life to a pitch. Meaning the faster the spin the less it slows down from release to plate. Those numbers have to be available and would impact a batters timing the further it is away from "average." In essence a reverse CU. LOL For example, It looks like a 90mph fastball but reaches the plate equal to a typical 93mph FB...
That's teally interesting. Perhaps true. It's that also kind of the thing with a gyro ball? Goes through the air like a bullet and doesn't slow down as much? You raise. Great point though. 93 out of hand that crosses plate at 85 is not equal to 93 that crosses at 88.
I believe my son has gotten the opportunity he has at the school he has because his son's future school is an early adopter of Trackman and what those metrics mean. Mid 80s fastball with a slider that has well above average spin rate.
I posted a while back that Trackman has provided the first tangible piece as to why he is successful above what the radar gun says. He pitched at Lakepoint last summer against a team full of D1 commits initially scouts departed when his velo hit the scoreboard. Word spread and by the 6th many scouts were back watching our game. Another father overheard them talking about his slider spin rate and that was why they were now watching
I tried to find the Dallas Baptist article about how they use it but I can't find it. It is very interesting stuff
I think lower spin rate is seen as valuable as higher spin rate. You just wanna be off average on it. Especially if you combine it with other tools (e.g. High velocity).
Apparently Max Scherzer has a high spin rate. And apparently more and more orgs are putting TrackMan at all of their affiliates.
I feel a business boom coming. Dads all over America. I need to invest in TrackMan.
DBU's unit was supposedly donated by a high round draft pick after his signing.
I do know after every game they provide the ball and strike chart after each game to the home plate umpire. Lots of uses
justbaseball posted:I think lower spin rate is seen as valuable as higher spin rate. You just wanna be off average on it. Especially if you combine it with other tools (e.g. High velocity).
Apparently Max Scherzer has a high spin rate. And apparently more and more orgs are putting TrackMan at all of their affiliates.
I feel a business boom coming. Dads all over America. I need to invest in TrackMan.
I don't know how much the baseball version is but if I remember correctly the golf version can run upwards of $15,000-$20,000...a bit expensive for a backyard toy.
Spin rate is a very interesting as well as new technology in baseball.
Someone with more knowledge (@Kyle Boddy) may correct me or have more knowledge. Both very low, and very high spin rates are good. The low spin rates are in tune with a "heavy ball", one that comes with more sink. The high spin rates are ones that feel "light", or maybe "explode" at home plate. Imagine the normal line of a completely average pitch. A low spin rate pitch will be slightly below the line, while the high spin rate will be above. Staying off the average will reduce the contact (and good contact) of the pitch.
A good example of high spin rates from the high school ranks is Sean Reid-Foley, one of my favorite pitchers (he recently pitched for the Lansing Lugnuts against my local minor league team).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uNZSBRahBY
Take a look at pitch #2 (:07), pitch #4 (:47), pitch #5 (:54), 1:09....The pitches that look like they run up at the end, greatly to his high spin rates.
Here is an article courtesy of The ARMory, another top notch pitching/velocity/arm care facility.
https://armorypitching.com/can-you-train-spin-rate/
We do plan to add TrackMan stats to the scoreboards including spin rates and exit velocity for hitters. Due to some complaints, we probably will not show velocity anymore for the youngest age groups. Personally I don't think it will make any difference, but the complaints get old.
We have been using radar display in our building for over 20 years. Thousands of pitchers all ages can see their velocity on every pitch. We have had "zero" TJ surgeries as a result. The only two TJ surgeries performed on pitchers that threw in our building were on MLB pitchers after both had pitched many years in professional baseball. Neither would even think of blaming that radar reading on the wall at our building.
We tried using TrackMan at our indoor facility. It wouldn't work indoors, at least not in our building. So we use HitTrax indoors, but it won't work outdoors.
cost... We have a partnership with TrackMan, they sell all the info from our events to the MLB organizations and we receive a part of the revenue. But that 40k is pretty close on the units we use. TM Is in every MLB stadium now, those units cost a small fortune. Hit Trax cost about 20k just for the unit and you need a few other things for it to work the best way.
Daron Sutton, Don Sutton's son, has been a play by play announcer for several MLB clubs. He now works for PG. He also does a show for MLB that uses MLB advanced metrics that include TrackMan data among many other things. Those interested in advanced metrics will really enjoy that show. All this technology is mind blowing, but I have always believed you can never have too much information on players, so I love it.
For us poor folks... Not exactly 100% accurate but may give you a general idea... Take a sharpie and color one quarter of the ball. High speed video and put it on hudl technique formerly übersense or some othe video app with a flywheel timeline. Count the revolutions and note the elapsed time. If nothing else you get a rough idea and you can definitely see spin direction and compare one pitch to another.
I see great possibilities here.
"Hope" for lower velo pitchers. A low(er) cost mass-produced TrackMan that measures velo and spin rate only. Player resumes sent to colleges with spin rates gathered at events highlighted. More attendance and dollars for events that give dads their son's spin rates.
But remember, we can say we want as much data as we can get - on our sons - but data cuts both ways. Trend up/trend down? Spin rate high/spin rate low? Or spin rate just average. 
And just baseball the other thing to keep in mind is the hitters are also collecting this data. They know their swing plane has to be a little higher for high spin rate guys and lower for low spin rate guys. The question is will this knowledge able to override what their instincts are telling them at the time of the pitch? Cause if hitters are able to make that adjustment based on data then velocity is king once again. But you are right it does give some hope. Those 'pitchability' guys are now able to be identified and defined with modern technology. It is exciting.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/1...n-050433447-mlb.html
"In Japan, researchers have studied baseball spin for years. One study at Waseda University, home of the biggest powerhouse in Japanese collegiate baseball, looked at the difference between an 87-mph fastball with 2,400 revolutions per minute and one with 1,800. The faster-spinning one crosses the plate 70 millimeters higher than the slower one. The diameter of a baseball is 73 to 76 millimeters. Not all 87-mph fastballs are equal, not even close."
Interesting.
boy, this has been real educational. I have been doing some additional reading and it sounds like maybe the low spin rate pitches are 2 seam sinkers and the fast spin pitches are the 4 seam guys. this may be really silly question but can a pitcher be both a low spin rate guy with the 2 seam and a high spin rate with the 4 seam. again apologies in advance if this is a silly question
2020Dad - Interesting thoughts. I don't know enough about hitting to know how possible that is though. My thought is that for high level pro hitters, you might be right?! I wonder if a HS/elite travel player would have that ability yet or not. I'd be interested to hear about that though.
One thing though, at least the spin rate data doesn't seem to be shared much with the players. Its not like the pitcher is getting a report card on it - but they can find it out if they want. I guess if a hitter wants it, he would have to ask as well?
Of course, if they want velocity data they gotta ask for that too. One thing I know about that - the other night when our son was pitching in Charlotte, the stadium scoreboard had him at 91-94. TrackMan had him at 94-96 in the same outing which is closer to what he's been recently. I don't know what his spin rate was.
Montanabaseball posted:boy, this has been real educational. I have been doing some additional reading and it sounds like maybe the low spin rate pitches are 2 seam sinkers and the fast spin pitches are the 4 seam guys. this may be really silly question but can a pitcher be both a low spin rate guy with the 2 seam and a high spin rate with the 4 seam. again apologies in advance if this is a silly question
Yes absolutely and that is the objective. But you almost have to be a high rpm guy first. It is not that difficult through grips to reduce spin rate. But the mystery is how to increase. So if you have a 2700 rpm four seemer you could probably figure out how to get a 1700 rpm two seemer or slip pitch. But if your four seemer is naturally at about 2200 or 2300 that sits smack dab average. That's going to be an issue which means now you are strictly a sinker baller since you really don't want to throw that fat four seemer.
One thing mentioned that is for sure... not all 87 mph fastballs are the same. In fact, there can be night and day difference. Same goes for 94 mph fastballs or any speed for that matter. So the question remains would you want the best 87 mph fastball or the worst 95 mph fastball?
The best 87 will win you the game today. But everyone will want the 95 guy. At the same time it is much easier, no matter what spin rate, to throw lower velocity sinkers. You have gravity working for you. But most of the very best sinker ball pitchers are throwing low 90s sinkers, some even mid 90s.
Fastball spin rate is important, but breaking ball spin rate is even more important. I think the best way to easily improve spin rate is to pretend you are throwing an over ripe tomato. Best thing is, it is much easier to improve spin rate or decrease it, than it is to throw mid 90s. I think all pitchers with less than average velocity should try to develop good spin rates. In fact, maybe all pitchers should. But be careful when experimenting with your arm!
Interesting topic. My son's team was playing a district rival. They have 2 pitchers that are D1 commits as (a 2016 & a 2017). 1 throws 92-94 and other was 88-91. Son stated that the "slower" pitcher had "nastier stuff" with more movement including the fastball. I would assume that this is all related to the different spin rate between the two. Both are very good and was fun to watch them pitch.
SultanofSwat posted:If you had access to a Trackman during bullpens, you could learn fast enough how to adjust your grip/release to raise/lower your spin rate. Kyle needs to pony up $40k for one of these.
I have one.
To answer a few questions posed in this thread:
Yes, the faster the ball is thrown, the higher the spin. In our tests, spin rate is directly correlated with velocity BUT the coefficient seems to be static for a pitcher. In other words, spin rate is innate in some way. If you throw a 70 MPH fastball your spin rate will be proportionally the same as your 92 MPH fastball. Trevor Bauer was the first to posit this theory and after extensive data collection it seems to hold up.
That being said, hitters probably adjust to this. It is not your gross spin rate specifically but rather the difference in your spin rate vs. the league average for your size, build, etc. How hitters perceive pitches is still rather unknown, so more research needs to be done.
For spin rate on breaking balls... well, this is a very complicated subject. More is not necessarily better. Applicable/useful spin is important. Imagine a slider that spins 3000 RPM (high) but it is all gyroscopic in nature. In theory none of this spin affects the movement of the pitch (a true high spin gyroball) and the pitch "hangs." This is the mythical (0,0) pitch that PITCHf/x is calibrated to, a pitch with no magnus effect due to spin.
Dr. Alan Nathan writes the most on this subject. I suggest reading this.
http://www.baseballprospectus.....php?articleid=25915
The answer, like most in baseball, is that "it depends." Most theories out there on how spin rates are useful or how they should effect pitching are just that - theories. Untested, unproven. It will take many months and years of testing with a Trackman unit in a controlled setting to really uncover how it will be useful for player development, not just scouting.
And that's what I intend to do with mine, anyway.
justbaseball posted:I see great possibilities here.
"Hope" for lower velo pitchers. A low(er) cost mass-produced TrackMan that measures velo and spin rate only. Player resumes sent to colleges with spin rates gathered at events highlighted. More attendance and dollars for events that give dads their son's spin rates.
But remember, we can say we want as much data as we can get - on our sons - but data cuts both ways. Trend up/trend down? Spin rate high/spin rate low? Or spin rate just average.
This will soon exist, and will be better than you think. Rapsodo will be releasing a spin rate + velocity + spin direction/break unit soon. I have one and I am testing it and improving it with them. The unit costs $3000. They have agreed to let Jerry Weinstein use it in the bullpen in Wareham (Cape) this year, too. It's very promising.
You should all know Trackman and Rapsodo have serious flaws with them that must be addressed. Trackman data that comes from games almost universally needs to be cleaned and checked before it is presented. If organizations are not hiring consultants to help correct the noisy data, the data is misleading and potentially useless. I have hired Dan Brooks and Harry Pavlidis from BrooksBaseball.net (a great site if you have never been there) to help me. It has been money very well spent.
Kyle Boddy posted:SultanofSwat posted:If you had access to a Trackman during bullpens, you could learn fast enough how to adjust your grip/release to raise/lower your spin rate. Kyle needs to pony up $40k for one of these.
I have one.
To answer a few questions posed in this thread:
Yes, the faster the ball is thrown, the higher the spin. In our tests, spin rate is directly correlated with velocity BUT the coefficient seems to be static for a pitcher. In other words, spin rate is innate in some way. If you throw a 70 MPH fastball your spin rate will be proportionally the same as your 92 MPH fastball. Trevor Bauer was the first to posit this theory and after extensive data collection it seems to hold up.
That being said, hitters probably adjust to this. It is not your gross spin rate specifically but rather the difference in your spin rate vs. the league average for your size, build, etc. How hitters perceive pitches is still rather unknown, so more research needs to be done.
For spin rate on breaking balls... well, this is a very complicated subject. More is not necessarily better. Applicable/useful spin is important. Imagine a slider that spins 3000 RPM (high) but it is all gyroscopic in nature. In theory none of this spin affects the movement of the pitch (a true high spin gyroball) and the pitch "hangs." This is the mythical (0,0) pitch that PITCHf/x is calibrated to, a pitch with no magnus effect due to spin.
Dr. Alan Nathan writes the most on this subject. I suggest reading this.
http://www.baseballprospectus.....php?articleid=25915
The answer, like most in baseball, is that "it depends." Most theories out there on how spin rates are useful or how they should effect pitching are just that - theories. Untested, unproven. It will take many months and years of testing with a Trackman unit in a controlled setting to really uncover how it will be useful for player development, not just scouting.
And that's what I intend to do with mine, anyway.
I want to "like" your reply but I just don't understand most of it. LOL
See ball - hit ball is all I got!
