Pitcher - Clip Link

He needs a better "sit" when he's throwing the ball (generate more momentum).

Also needs to learn how to rotate better. His follow through looks like he "cuts it off" prematurely. Which is effecting his velocity before he throws.

Good luck.

RobV, agreed on both counts. I think alot of the 'sit' will be resolved as we work through the winter on leg and core strength. One drill that has been recommended is plyo-ball wall squats. Hungarian split-lifts is another.

Yes, I feel like he is not "cutting loose" - almost like he's wanting to get into a fielding position too soon. We will be working on this through the winter.

I appreciate the feedback as it indicates there is a good bit of lost velocity at this point and his 82 max will hopefully increase another 5-6 over the next seven months before summer ball. That is the goal, anyway!!

Krak,

Took a good long look and I agree with Rob V in the fact that he is cutting himself off a little on the frontside. If you pause him at his balance point and concentrate on his glove hand, he appears to be a little inconsistant with the direction he is pulling. One pitch he is closed and the next frame he has a tendency to swim out with the glove hand. Once the glove hand gets outside the body a couple things will happen. He will open up way to quickly and looses his core and it will cause him to fall off to his left side at times.
The other thing is that he needs to stay taller over his back side a little longer.( throw the ball down hill) Guys who drop to the sit position have a tendency to get underneath the ball at times and push it a little. Love the way he uses his legs though. Arm works, and he throws strikes with both pitches and thats the name of the game.
Good luck to you and your son and hope he has a healthy year.

Thanks deucedoc - have added your observations to my list.

quote:

Originally posted by Krakatoa:
The main thing I want to key on this winter is in getting more extension and a more 'rounded' finish (if that makes sense -- meaning I want to work on getting him to sweep his throwing arm on past his left leg after release - a proper finish).

He looks quite solid to me.

Good timing. Throws with his body and not just his arm.

I actually like his finish. It leaves him in a good fielding position.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
He needs a better "sit" when he's throwing the ball (generate more momentum).

I disagree, because I think that power comes from getting the hips rotating ahead of the shoulders (which he does well) and not from the stride.

The one thing I noticed is his plant seems to be all over the place. The view from behing the HP shows his plant being too closed. Other views seem to be okay but can't tell where his foot is landing in those shots. because his foot is closed his finish is a little awkward looking. He is throwing across his body.
I also like a squared up finish. He falls off to his left and is not in a position to field. He should bend and finish low with his head low and trailing foot coming around to square up. This puts him in BFP ready to field his position. A lot of power pitchers throw like this even im MLB.
The biggest think I saw was he was inconsistent in his delivery. Pitching with no batter he appeared too closed and with a batter he was too open.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
...I think that power comes from getting the hips rotating ahead of the shoulders (which he does well) and not from the stride.

Then why bother with the stride? I guess we could just stand at the rubber with the feet together, rotate the hips before the shoulders and throw? Ludicrous, no?

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Originally posted by dm59:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
...I think that power comes from getting the hips rotating ahead of the shoulders (which he does well) and not from the stride.

Then why bother with the stride? I guess we could just stand at the rubber with the feet together, rotate the hips before the shoulders and throw? Ludicrous, no?

Because the stride helps to create the tension that pulls the shoulders around. It's hard (but not impossible) to generate a good stretch of the torso without taking some stride.

The stride is just a tool, not an end in and of itself.

The same goes for the separation of the hips and shoulders.

As an aside, I liked the slide step in the side views.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The one thing I noticed is his plant seems to be all over the place.

I saw a lot of inconsistency in where his glove finishes.

It seems like a big thing to work on is consistency.

I saw a lot of difference between the arm action prior to the curve and the fastball and it looked like the hitter was able to pick it up hitting a solid line drive off a fastball after several curves.

I didn't see that he had a problem with sitting enough.

I did see that on at least one pitch his stride was closed and he wasn't able to rotate properly. It looked like he was trying to throw across a locked up hip at that point. Seems like he might have been taught to be a down and outer at one time.

I did get the impression that he wasn't really letting it go on most pitches but that is something that needs to be worked on in pens more so than in game situations. You want a pitcher to learn to let it go in the pen so that he develops more velocity, but in games a pitcher needs to throw most pitches at a velocity at which they have command. It also gives a pitcher the option of changing speeds upward when needed, something a pitcher who never lets it go doesn't really have.

Looks like the ball has a nice downward plane. He might want to work on making the 2 seamer his main fastball for getting outs as opposed to the 4 seamer for when he needs to light up the gun.

I didn't see a problem with the arm location during the follow thru. He moves it toward the post leg only after he's done with the follow thru.

Looks like a decent pitcher with pretty good mechanics that needs refinement more so than major changes.

Once he's done with his growth spurt I'd recommend working with the weighted and underweight balls during the offseason. The least safe time for pitchers is during their growth spurt. They can tolerate increased workloads better before and after the growth spurt but they are quite vulnerable until the rest of their body catchs up with the bone growth. If he can get another 6 to 7 mph by the time he graduates that would be pretty good although you and he want more, sooner of course.

JMO and I'm not an expert.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The one thing I noticed is his plant seems to be all over the place.

I saw a lot of inconsistency in where his glove finishes.

It seems like a big thing to work on is consistency.

To me the big thing to work on is letting this kid throw the **** out of the ball for a while, before wanting to look all pretty like everyone wants their pitchers to look.

He is not letting himself finish his throws. He's not rotating enough (or efficiently maybe I should say), and he's not generating enough momentum to achieve his velocity potential.

If we're talking about reaching your "throwing potential", then he needs to crank up the intensity and let 'er rip. If you just want him to look pretty and be "just another kid who can pitch" then by all means, don't change a thing.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
He might want to work on making the 2 seamer his main fastball for getting outs as opposed to the 4 seamer for when he needs to light up the gun.

Wouldn't that depend upon how he intended to make the batter produce the out?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
The stride is just a tool, not an end in and of itself.

The stride develops some momentum, which can ultimately be transferred to the ball.

CD & RV have made a notable point.

Sometimes pitchers can be so focused on their mechanics and control that they end up throwing at velocities significantly below their true potential.

I'm not a fan of "throw the cr*p" out of the ball at the younger ages. But as they get into HS, some (not all) pitchers do need to begin throwing harder.

This is probably one of those instances.

That said, they do NOT need to throw with so much effort that their mechanics go to cr*p. That will be counterproductive and it isn't necessary.

I'm of the notion that if a player tries to throw, just throw, without so much concern of what looks "correct", that his mechanics will tend to be a lot better than if he was trying to be perfect. The rhythm, tempo, and intent to throw hard will be there.

Maybe not all cases, but I think this is one instance that this type of training would help.

So I guess when I say "throw the cr*p out of the ball" that is what I'm refering to.

Not arguing with you at all in this case. And temporarily reducing the emphasis on thinking about mechanics and increasing the emphasis on throwing hard is the methodology being discussed. We're about to end up in violent agreement here.

I just put a limit on my humble opinion as to how far to go with the "throw the cr*p out of it".

You may or may not agree with that limit, which is certainly within your rights.

We work with Ron Wolforth's "Athletic Pitcher" program, and Ron also advocates a good bit of off-season 'chucking for velocity'. I agree with that, and I also do lean towards the idea that this can actually improve the overall mecahnics - by pushing the body to 'over-achieve' (for lack of a better term), I think you can help the body find its proper place in space and time. I'm hoping the Unbreakable Abs program we'll be working ion all winter will also help shore up the mid-section for a more powerful rotation and follow-through.

Good mechanics are practiced until you don't have to think about your mechanics. This is not about looking pretty but that may be a bi product of good mechanics. The intent is smooth fluid controlled delivery to the plate. Once the mechanics are mastered you can step up the trust towards the plate.. A pitcher who can control his delivery can make a ball locate much better than a guy who just blasts away. He might even stay off the injury list.

The best way to be a good pitcher is be consitant and be able to repeat the pitches.

Observations:
The postion of the glove when he start differs with different pitches.

At times he does not stride far enough and he is throwing across his body.

Some pitches his leg goes much farther back than other times, thus his glove goes farther back and causes inconsistancy in the pitch.

It appears carrying his glove so far from the body early on that it affects his posture and repeatable glove action to the finish.

Also possibly crossing the fine line of stride vs pushing off. Pushing too hard will not allow the hips and trunk to rotate to a full finish.

Then again, looks like he throws strikes.

Hmmm....the glove issue is one I hadn't noticed before, but has been mentioned now several times. Definitely a 'winter work-on'!!

Texan,
re: 2-seamer, sure it would. But given that he seems to throw downhill a 2-seamer might be pretty effective with most hitters in most but certainly not all situations.

Some batters are susceptible to the two seamer down & in. Never arguing that.

But say you have a RH batter who starts with an open stance and doesn't swing all the way back to neutral (or closed). He will be susceptible on the outside corner. In that case, the two seam will not be the best "out" pitch. From a RHP, the two seam will tail back in over the plate. Instead, a four seam would be better for angling to the outside corner.

Looking for a pop up? Angle a four seam up & in on the fists.

I was just nitpicking you a little. No harm intended.


I'll leave the nits alone now.

Interestingly, the two K's shown on the video both occur on two-seamers. The first starts at the knees of the lefty then cuts in just enough to paint the black. The second, against the righty, starts mid-plate and then runs in towards the batter's belt and gets him. It's one of his more effective pitches.
(this according to the suspect in question, anyway)

quote:

Originally posted by Krakatoa:
Interestingly, the two K's shown on the video both occur on two-seamers. The first starts at the knees of the lefty then cuts in just enough to paint the black. The second, against the righty, starts mid-plate and then runs in towards the batter's belt and gets him. It's one of his more effective pitches.

The movement you describe makes the pitch sound like a cutter.

Is this deliberate or accidental?

For a RHP, the cutter will move away from a RH batter - not in on a RH batter.

The action described is throwing arm side tail. That is two seam movement. Cutter gives glove side tail.

Krak,
Based on painful experience and at least a year away from any significant amount of baseball I'd recommend being very careful while he's still going through a growth spurt and for a few months afterward. I'd recommend that every third week be a light work week where he works on technique and not on power.

The plan, being that this is just the start of November, is to work slowly on some of the bigger mechanical issues that have been addressed here....lite work.....the hard work will be done this winter in the gym (I'm trying Unbreakable Abs -- sounds like a solid program).
Will build towards hard throwing around about February.

BTW, I would encourage others of you who have clips but are reluctant to post them to go ahead and do so! The amount of advice you receive is very valuable, and other 'eyes' often see things that you might not have noticed before. Make use of your resources!

Krak.....

First of all, I think your son's basic fundamentals are pretty solid.....he has done well to get them that way.

But secondly, make sure you (and any others) don't take all of the advice given here to be vitally important. You have to remember that a majority of the posters here are parents just like you, and they do not have trained eyes nor the experience to always be correct when looking at a handful of pitches on the computer.

I am not saying that anybody was wrong in what they have suggested. Most of the parents who have worked with their sons have a trained eye for spotting changes in their own son's mechanics; they have learned it by being with their sons and their son's pitching coaches.

In just about every thread in the hitting and pitching forums you will find conflicting advice. How is a good father supposed to figure out which conflicting statements he should follow?

I rarely give advice in these threads because of two things:
1. Somebody has already written what I would write, thus I don't want to waste people's time with redundancy (we read enough redundant comments here to cover an entire book), and
2. Somebody else has already given inaccurate advice, and thus debate and confusion are inevitable.

Again, make sure your son continues to do what he has been doing. He has a nice pitcher's body and a solid base. Being consistent with (repeating) his mechanics and release point will enable him to continue to develop.

grateful, thanks for the wisdom. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not always easy! A couple of things have been mentioned by multiple posters in regards to the mechanics, while other issues were more polarized....am sticking to those couple of things that received multiple notes and in what I see after reading through all the comments.

Thanks again. Krak

CADad, I hadn't realized you'd had some problems with your guy. Hope everything is working out and that he will be good to go. (hope I haven't misunderstood your post? Maybe this was in the past??)

Krak

Hopefully it will be in the past fairly soon. He's had a couple different growth related injuries that have kept him from playing for about a year now.

Jumping in late here but here's my 2 cents...

Observations on pitches from the wind-up:
- strides with bent front leg (stride could be longer?)
- hips don't start forward until knee starts to drop
- has nice high knee lift
- stands straight up and down and takes big dip at start of stride
- strides to the closed side (possible cause of posture issues)
- appears to open up front foot/leg too soon (reduces explosiveness of hip rotation)
- gets decent hip and shoulder separation
- glove is tucked and pulled early (takes away timing needed for delayed shoulder rotation)
- head/upper torso finish to left of target (makes release point inconsistent, pulls release point back away from target, can affect movement, and puts more stress on shoulder)
- glove finishes to the side and a bit low
- release point not 8"-12" in front of front foot
- follow through is abbreviated (puts unnecessary stress on decellerators on back side of shoulder)

Recommendations:
(1) Start with knees bent more so that head doesn't drop so much. Head should only move toward the target. I tell my pitchers to think of their head as a bowling ball going down the gutter.
(2) Get hips going a bit sooner while maintaining same knee lift. This will lengthen the stride and get the release point closer to the target.
(3) Can't tell from the video what his starting position is but I'd move him to left side of rubber to reduce the chance of posture problems due to striding to the closed side.
(4) Eliminate glove drop/pull. Instead, leave glove out over front foot and bring chest to glove.
(5) Develop a complete follow-through.

Observations on pitches from the stretch:
- does good job of getting hips going
- stride is too short (release point further away from target than it could be, movement possibly affected)
- slide step is very quick but doesn't need to be that quick (requires different timing than from wind-up)
- upper torso leans back

Recommendations:
(1) Introduce a small knee lift or take knee back towards 2B a bit to give body some more timing to get release point where it should be.

Hope this helps.

Roger has touched on most of the issues. The next issue is how are you going to deal with them ?
I suggest you find a pro pitching instructor.

I would be curious to know what people think of the video production from the point of view of a recruitor.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

- release point not 8"-12" in front of front foot

Why is this important?

quote:

Recommendations:
(1) Start with knees bent more so that head doesn't drop so much. Head should only move toward the target. I tell my pitchers to think of their head as a bowling ball going down the gutter.

Nonsense. Your head can be off to the side, and you can still throw the ball accurately.

quote:

(2) Get hips going a bit sooner while maintaining same knee lift. This will lengthen the stride and get the release point closer to the target.
(3) Can't tell from the video what his starting position is but I'd move him to left side of rubber to reduce the chance of posture problems due to striding to the closed side.
(4) Eliminate glove drop/pull. Instead, leave glove out over front foot and bring chest to glove.
(5) Develop a complete follow-through.

More Tom House philosophy.....

I think the original poster would do better with the Ron Wolforth program.

BHD, we have no access to a pro pitching coach over here - that's why I put the clip up, to encourgage feedback which I could then use to the best of my own abilities with my boy. And I will! Got many good bits of advice here, and we're ready to move on and work hard on those things that seem most relevant and made the most sense.

I appreciate all the comments and advice. Now it's time to get to work.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

- release point not 8"-12" in front of front foot

Why is this important?

Because it affects movement and it gives the batter less time to see and react to the ball.

quote:

quote:

Recommendations:
(1) Start with knees bent more so that head doesn't drop so much. Head should only move toward the target. I tell my pitchers to think of their head as a bowling ball going down the gutter.

Nonsense. Your head can be off to the side, and you can still throw the ball accurately.

Some can. Many pros can - they have the physical attributes that allow them to overcome issues like this. But it sure makes it more difficult to develop a consistant release point and it makes it harder to get your breaking pitch to break. It's not something I would teach a kid.

quote:

quote:

(2) Get hips going a bit sooner while maintaining same knee lift. This will lengthen the stride and get the release point closer to the target.
(3) Can't tell from the video what his starting position is but I'd move him to left side of rubber to reduce the chance of posture problems due to striding to the closed side.
(4) Eliminate glove drop/pull. Instead, leave glove out over front foot and bring chest to glove.
(5) Develop a complete follow-through.

More Tom House philosophy.....

I don't deny that. But I happen to believe in it. Rather than just blow it off as Tom House stuff, why don't you explain what you disagree with and why.

quote:

I think the original poster would do better with the Ron Wolforth program.

I've heard of Ron Wolforth but know nothing about his philosophies. Care to elaborate on your claim?

quote:

More Tom House philosophy.....

quote:

I don't deny that. But I happen to believe in it. Rather than just blow it off as Tom House stuff, why don't you explain what you disagree with and why.

I don't think he describes or teaches a high level throw. The stuff about keeping head still, bringing chest to glove, release point infront of foot (perceived velocity idea, which also leads to pushing), towel drills (what are these supposed to do btw) etc...I just don't think they are a way or a means to achieve your full potential to throw a baseball. Limiting you.

If you train to throw, concentrating on good arm action, a posture that allows for the most effecient way to load and unload in an explosive manner, being a whip for lack of a better phrase, then I feel you will be on your way to throwing at your highest potential.

quote:

I think the original poster would do better with the Ron Wolforth program.

quote:

I've heard of Ron Wolforth but know nothing about his philosophies. Care to elaborate on your claim?

He has a program called the Athletic Pitcher, I haven't used it myself, but from what I've seen of it, it shows a number of different ways to TRAIN to throw at a high level. Condition your body so you can achieve you velocity potential and strengthen your arm to help prevent injuries.

I've also heard good things about the Jeager program (Thrive on throwing I believe it's called).

I also agree with many of the ideas for throwing that N y m a n/S e t p r o put forth. You have to pay now to have access to the forums there, but I believe that is THE BEST information available on throwing a baseball.