Julie, concur...
MN-Mom,
The only way to really eliminate the "personal" issue - IMO - is to erase the video.
That is about as blatantly obvious as I have ever seen.
Hopefully - the discussion that ensues here will concern sportsmanship - and not premeditated assault.
The only way to really eliminate the "personal" issue - IMO - is to erase the video.
That is about as blatantly obvious as I have ever seen.
Hopefully - the discussion that ensues here will concern sportsmanship - and not premeditated assault.
I think having this video posted on the net is a pretty strong deterrent to players considering this kind of stuff in the future. This is now a matter of public record. Having the kids' names attached to it runs the risk of labeling these kids for their entire baseball career, which probably isn't a fair sentence. That said, unless the catcher is truly extraordinary, I can't imagine him ever living this one down. His reputation with umpires will follow him everywhere, and his innings behind the plate will be difficult. He should strongly consider learning a new position.
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Spizzle...
I would disagree...some...the video is two edged...
IF it engenders a swift heavy response then it is part of the solution...
IF however, the response is meek and weak...it will be a template...YIKES!...and that is my fear...
44
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Spizzle...
I would disagree...some...the video is two edged...
IF it engenders a swift heavy response then it is part of the solution...
IF however, the response is meek and weak...it will be a template...YIKES!...and that is my fear...
44.
Yeah I get you 44. In this case it's swift and heavy, and broadcast nationally. That's a good thing in my book. But if bad things get twisted and (gulp) glorified then we have a huge problem. I think you'll see more and more of this kind of thing, and with the right outcome I hope. Nothing much happens in this day and age without a camera present.
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Yep...Imagine the scenario if this were a few years ago...and no visual existed...It would be an entirely different argument...He said/he said...
There is certainly something to the argument that one must THINK before they act now...or your stupidity may go national...
44
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quote:Nothing much happens in this day and age without a camera present.
Yep...Imagine the scenario if this were a few years ago...and no visual existed...It would be an entirely different argument...He said/he said...
There is certainly something to the argument that one must THINK before they act now...or your stupidity may go national...
44.
quote:Stephens County principal David Friend said he thought the ruling was fair
quote:.... we had several players who didn't represent school way I think they should have. Not just that pitch, but the overall behavior."
quote:Friend said he was concerned about his players' excessive arguing with umpires and throwing helmets and gloves in the dugout and one report that a student made an obscene gesture to an official.
quote:.... the half inning prior to the umpire being hit, Stephens County shortstop argued with the home plate umpire and threw his helmet after becoming the ninth straight Stephens batter to strike out.
quote:If there is one player I feel bad about, it's our kid being judged by one pitch because he's really done so much good in the way he's represented his team and school in the classroom," Friend said. "I feel bad for his family. This has been devastating for them."
.....probably not half as devestating as it was for the umpire.
Good kids sometimes make bad mistakes.
It may have been only one pitch,...but if it was intentional, it sure represents about a dozen wrongs.
Wow.
What a shame all of this bad behavior took place.
quote:As part of the GHSA's penalty, Gosnell and his assistants must complete a sportsmanship education program.
That's it?????
Boy,.....bet that baby
Good grief.
Spizzle quote:
I agree.
Perhaps defensive lineman.
.....or geranium plant potter,..... in Alaska.
quote:He should strongly consider learning a new position.
I agree.
Perhaps defensive lineman.
.....or geranium plant potter,..... in Alaska.
From the AJC article-
"But Stephens County coach Mark Gosnell said it was a mixup between his catcher and pitcher."
"Matt said he had a curveball, and Cody said it was a fastball," Gosnell said. "[They] have been as honest as anyone since I've known them."
In all fairness, and compared to these kids, the coach has gotten off fairly light. His name was hardly mentioned in this thread. If the parents and fans were involved too then the coach truly never had control of his program. The school pays a small fine and Gosnell, the adult who is teaching these young men, gets to go to sportsmanship class? This is something many states would require of any licensed coach anyway.
Mark Gosnell stuck up for his players when he should have been addressing the problem with them. And BTW, you can stick up for your players without making excuses for them. If he was implicit in any way with what happened he needs to go.
"But Stephens County coach Mark Gosnell said it was a mixup between his catcher and pitcher."
"Matt said he had a curveball, and Cody said it was a fastball," Gosnell said. "[They] have been as honest as anyone since I've known them."
In all fairness, and compared to these kids, the coach has gotten off fairly light. His name was hardly mentioned in this thread. If the parents and fans were involved too then the coach truly never had control of his program. The school pays a small fine and Gosnell, the adult who is teaching these young men, gets to go to sportsmanship class? This is something many states would require of any licensed coach anyway.
Mark Gosnell stuck up for his players when he should have been addressing the problem with them. And BTW, you can stick up for your players without making excuses for them. If he was implicit in any way with what happened he needs to go.
Public trashing was not my intent when reporting what was happening. I was simply and innocently trying to report what was happening, and the parties involved. I have no malice towards any of the characters involved in this story.
I understand WHY you edited and/or deleted as you did so as to not have this forum appear to bad mouth our youth. I respect that. I just wanted it known that I wasn't doing anything intentionally.
Back to the story...the question was asked above..."are you saying the hit batter was intentional...??" I can't say for sure. All I can say is that it was against their #1 rival and the game became heated. It just seems to me that all this seems quite suspicious when these particular kids are up against the wall.
I understand WHY you edited and/or deleted as you did so as to not have this forum appear to bad mouth our youth. I respect that. I just wanted it known that I wasn't doing anything intentionally.
Back to the story...the question was asked above..."are you saying the hit batter was intentional...??" I can't say for sure. All I can say is that it was against their #1 rival and the game became heated. It just seems to me that all this seems quite suspicious when these particular kids are up against the wall.
quote:Originally posted by MN-Mom:
But I still will ask all members to try to avoid going over that line between suspicion and anger about the incident, and public trashing of HS-aged players.[/b]
Julie
If there was no video and only accounts of the story, then there'd be some question on what happened.
This video clearly shows what these punks did and should be tossed out of the game on their ears. Maybe the next time, they kill somebody.
Since baseball's a game of failure, they could blow a gasket any time. Before they're ever allowed on the field again, they need to seek professional help.
When I saw this post yesterday I immediately emailed the links to my sons at home (pitcher and catcher.) The catcher saw the video before reading the article and had no idea what to expect. He did not hesitate on his take. I told him to go to the AJC article and he was stunned to recognize the names mentioned.
Teenage boys make stupid testerone driven mistakes all the time, but when you have a high profile name, you have to expect them to go public. It's unfortunate for them, but having the video go public may deter others in the future. Would it have gained as much attention if a top draft prospect was not involved? Does it happen way too often? Probably so. My son was asked to do the same thing in a high school game this season. The pitcher came to me after the game and said that my son was "a good kid" in a less than complimentary tone. He told me that he instructed him to duck so that he could hit the ump, but that my son would not do it. I was speechless. While the situation is unfortunate, I hope good will come from the outrage and fewer players will think it's "just part of the game."
Teenage boys make stupid testerone driven mistakes all the time, but when you have a high profile name, you have to expect them to go public. It's unfortunate for them, but having the video go public may deter others in the future. Would it have gained as much attention if a top draft prospect was not involved? Does it happen way too often? Probably so. My son was asked to do the same thing in a high school game this season. The pitcher came to me after the game and said that my son was "a good kid" in a less than complimentary tone. He told me that he instructed him to duck so that he could hit the ump, but that my son would not do it. I was speechless. While the situation is unfortunate, I hope good will come from the outrage and fewer players will think it's "just part of the game."
Another account that I read alleged the father of the pitcher called the pitch from the stands with "a whistle and a hand gesture".
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Back to the story...the question was asked above..."are you saying the hit batter was intentional...??" I can't say for sure. All I can say is that it was against their #1 rival and the game became heated. It just seems to me that all this seems quite suspicious when these particular kids are up against the wall.
To accuse a HS kid of putting a 90 mph fb into the face of a batter, on purpose, is a pretty darn strong accusation. I would - in the strongest terms - recommend such an accusation not be made on supposition or wild guesses.
The school was fined $1,000 for unsportsmanlike conduct.
http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/8213140?MSNHPHMA
quote:Stephens coach Mark Gosnell said Hill and pitcher Cody Martin denied plotting to hit the umpire, who was not hurt, and said the passed ball during a 13-1 loss to Cartersville was a result of a signaling mix-up.
But GHSA executive director Ralph Swearngin believed otherwise after viewing video of the play.
"I made my decision primarily by watching whether the catcher tracked the pitch with his eyes," he told the paper. "In my opinion, he did not. I think that he would have been searching for the ball if it were a matter of being crossed up."
Stephens County principal David Friend said he thought the ruling, which included placing the baseball program on "severe warning status," was fair.
"I told (Swearngin) that I thought we deserved it," Friend said. "We had the opportunity to be on a big stage, in a state championship series, and we had several players who didn't represent school way I think they should have. Not just that pitch, but the overall behavior."
http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/8213140?MSNHPHMA
Well the Dodgers sure didn't seem to care much about this incident. 
That's because they're Dodgers...and artful...and can step out of the way!
Here is the latest:
Catcher loses scholarship
Catcher loses scholarship
the video looks very suspicious to say the least. You are losing 9-1 so throw at the umpire? Maybe that is some new strategy today?
From what I understand, Gordon College's baseball coach had not offered the catcher a scholarship but rather "preferred walk on" status this fall. The young man still retains an academic scholarship offer at Gordon College (graduated w/3.5 GPA).
Still wondering why nothing was done to the pitcher? The catcher is graduating so there's not much the HS can do to him, but the pitcher returns next year. Hard to believe no suspension of some sort. Final chapter to be played out is if any legal action will be taken by the ump/umpire association.
Still wondering why nothing was done to the pitcher? The catcher is graduating so there's not much the HS can do to him, but the pitcher returns next year. Hard to believe no suspension of some sort. Final chapter to be played out is if any legal action will be taken by the ump/umpire association.
From wsbtv.com
quote:Gordon College has withdrawn its offer to the catcher.
quote:The players and their coach still insist there was a mix-up on the pitch.
quote:Scott ( the umpire ) said the pitch did injure him. "I'm currently under a doctor's care and I'm still waiting for all the results to be evaluated."
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Still wondering why nothing was done to the pitcher? The catcher is graduating so there's not much the HS can do to him, but the pitcher returns next year. Hard to believe no suspension of some sort. Final chapter to be played out is if any legal action will be taken by the ump/umpire association.
Well, perhaps (probably)the pitcher knew that the catcher didn't intend to block the pitch, but in reality the pitcher did nothing out of the ordinary. Pitches with that trajectory are frequently seen in high school games.
Consider a different and more common situation: when a batter gets hit, it is the pitcher's responsibility. The pitcher and coach/manager may be ejected, but not the catcher, even though he may have called for a middle finger fastball.
Conversely, if an umpire is hit, it is primarly the catcher's responsibility. He's the one player on the field that can prevent it.
So suspend the pitcher for what? Conspiracy? In that case, suspend all the underclassmen, because afer 9 consecutive strikeouts, the umpire wasn't probably wasn't getting favorable reviews from anybody on the team.
I don't see how that could be even considered a legit mix-up.
That duo needs to work on their routine if they want to move from vaudeville to the silver screen.
Hope these guys didn't run anyone down with their cars after the game & claim that it was a mix-up with the stoplight.
That duo needs to work on their routine if they want to move from vaudeville to the silver screen.
Hope these guys didn't run anyone down with their cars after the game & claim that it was a mix-up with the stoplight.
Definitely on purpose. This happened in one of our games a couple weeks ago. The catcher let one through on purpose and it hit the ump in the leg. Way to disgrace the game.
3Finger,
Conspiracy sounds good to me...yeah, I know they'll never prove it. Maybe the old "guilt by association" thing would fly until the lawyers/ACLU got involved.
Just before this pitch happened, a meeting at the mound between the catcher, pitcher and SS took place (SS has been the 9th strikeout; brother of pitcher). We'll never truly know what was said unless one of the 3 rolls over and talks. Catcher will take the fall by himself.
Coaches and crowd had been on ump's case all afternoon. You're right about the overall perception he was getting from the team. problem is the team didn't swing the bats while the other team took the ump out of the equation by taking their hacks at the plate and scoring runs.
I showed my son the video (HS catcher) and told him if I ever SUSPECTED he intentionally did something like this, he wouldn't have to worry about coaches or the HS Athletic Assoc. because I would personally walk out on the field and pull him off while putting my foot where the sun don't shine. As an ex-catcher, I'll admit to calling for inside pitches and throwing at a hitters knees (never above the waist and never in HS) on occasion, but umps are off limits.....except for the verbal arguing.
The GHSA did put the school unders a "severe" warning of some sort based on this incident and others that took place during the game. What that means in English I don't know; supposedly further problems could result in suspensions of the program itself. Highly doubtful that would happen.
Conspiracy sounds good to me...yeah, I know they'll never prove it. Maybe the old "guilt by association" thing would fly until the lawyers/ACLU got involved.
Just before this pitch happened, a meeting at the mound between the catcher, pitcher and SS took place (SS has been the 9th strikeout; brother of pitcher). We'll never truly know what was said unless one of the 3 rolls over and talks. Catcher will take the fall by himself.
Coaches and crowd had been on ump's case all afternoon. You're right about the overall perception he was getting from the team. problem is the team didn't swing the bats while the other team took the ump out of the equation by taking their hacks at the plate and scoring runs.
I showed my son the video (HS catcher) and told him if I ever SUSPECTED he intentionally did something like this, he wouldn't have to worry about coaches or the HS Athletic Assoc. because I would personally walk out on the field and pull him off while putting my foot where the sun don't shine. As an ex-catcher, I'll admit to calling for inside pitches and throwing at a hitters knees (never above the waist and never in HS) on occasion, but umps are off limits.....except for the verbal arguing.
The GHSA did put the school unders a "severe" warning of some sort based on this incident and others that took place during the game. What that means in English I don't know; supposedly further problems could result in suspensions of the program itself. Highly doubtful that would happen.
Who was the shortstop/9th K victim?
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Who was the shortstop/9th K victim?
Hey, try to keep up!
#15 in the draft, going to the Dodgers. (which is why I thought you might have already known.)
Still controversial...
Dodgers' draftee on defensive
My opinions are better left to myself on this one.
Dodgers' draftee on defensive
My opinions are better left to myself on this one.
Looks like the story's got some legs. Over 62,000 hits on YouTube.
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The pitcher quoted in the LA Times article...
44
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The pitcher quoted in the LA Times article...
quote:"It's taken away from our (teams)accomplishment because the media's talking about this one incident,"
44.
Legs indeed. The 6/9/08 AJC Article states that the umpire has retained legal counsel.
And a "truth-is-stranger-than-fiction" note: The batter at the time of "The Pitch" (catcher for Cartersville) and the pitcher of "The Pitch" play on the same summer team, the East Cobb Braves.
And a "truth-is-stranger-than-fiction" note: The batter at the time of "The Pitch" (catcher for Cartersville) and the pitcher of "The Pitch" play on the same summer team, the East Cobb Braves.
Everybody here in Georgia has been talking about what is "fair" punishment for all involved. The question to be answered IMO is what will the punishment be once legal action is taken. Even worse, what could it have been had the umpired suffered an immediate concussion, knocked out, or even worse? I hate it for the kid who lost his walk-on scholarship but he had the opportunity to do the right thing at the right time. He has indeed learned a very valuable lesson. Or has he? I have now learned or heard that he has now been asked to play ball at Middle Jr. College (JUCO). Are you kidding me?! So one coach takes a stand to do what's right by saying "this is wrong", yet another decides he will overlook this and ask the kid to play for them....??? When will we as a nation...a community...start saying to our young people that you made a mistake, here is the punishment now learn and grow from it and don't let it happen again..? I can see this kid or parents now sitting there perhaps with a smug attitude.."well, if that's how they're gonna be, we'll just take our toys since they don't want us and go over here to this sandbox where they want us". Good grief. Where's the lesson learned?!
I'm sorry. I know I am venting and babbling here but for pete sake. It's almost like the kid is being told it's okay, nothing has to come of this serious brain-****.
Want to know what's even more awkward? The batter at the time in the video and the infamous pitcher are now teammates on the same East Cobb team! Go figure!
I'm sorry. I know I am venting and babbling here but for pete sake. It's almost like the kid is being told it's okay, nothing has to come of this serious brain-****.
Want to know what's even more awkward? The batter at the time in the video and the infamous pitcher are now teammates on the same East Cobb team! Go figure!
Just to play Devils advocate…..
What about the pitcher who intentionally nails a batter. How is that much different than this? You see that all the time, a batter hits a home run so the pitcher nails either him or someone else just because. I’m not implying hitting the ump is OK, I think hitting anyone on purpose is wrong.
Another question that comes to me as I think about this situation; if the pitcher was good enough to hit the ump in the face mask on purpose, why was having a bad game? I wish mine could locate that well, after all the catchers mitt is about the same size as an umps mask.
What about the pitcher who intentionally nails a batter. How is that much different than this? You see that all the time, a batter hits a home run so the pitcher nails either him or someone else just because. I’m not implying hitting the ump is OK, I think hitting anyone on purpose is wrong.
Another question that comes to me as I think about this situation; if the pitcher was good enough to hit the ump in the face mask on purpose, why was having a bad game? I wish mine could locate that well, after all the catchers mitt is about the same size as an umps mask.
The difference is the umpire is depending on (trusting) the catcher to stop/block/divert a ball that is thrown directly at him. A batter is facing a ball that should be thrown over the plate which is in front of him. I'm not saying that throwing at a batter is the right thing to so. The thing is a batter can get out of the way, an umpire is trained to stay in there to make a call.
(so) What happens if that trust is broken? This is one reason I'm appalled that there have not been further action. Imagine being an umpire behind that catcher? Are you going to pull out every time you see a fastball? What kind of calls do you think the plate umpire is going to be able to make if he is wondering about the kid? Same thing for the pitcher in question. And really for the coach as well. What is he teaching his guys?
There is a big risk with being an umpire - those foul tips are painful. Getting hit full face by a coordinated effort by two punks shouldn't be one of them.
*should mention at this point that my husband is an umpire.
(so) What happens if that trust is broken? This is one reason I'm appalled that there have not been further action. Imagine being an umpire behind that catcher? Are you going to pull out every time you see a fastball? What kind of calls do you think the plate umpire is going to be able to make if he is wondering about the kid? Same thing for the pitcher in question. And really for the coach as well. What is he teaching his guys?
There is a big risk with being an umpire - those foul tips are painful. Getting hit full face by a coordinated effort by two punks shouldn't be one of them.
*should mention at this point that my husband is an umpire.
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
(so) What happens if that trust is broken? This is one reason I'm appalled that there have not been further action. Imagine being an umpire behind that catcher? Are you going to pull out every time you see a fastball? What kind of calls do you think the plate umpire is going to be able to make if he is wondering about the kid? Same thing for the pitcher in question. And really for the coach as well. What is he teaching his guys?
Exactly.
There would appear to be enough blame to go around here. Lots of opportunity for "step up". Who did....Parents? Players? Coaches? Administration? School district? Atheltic association? State?...
44.
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quote:There is a big risk with being an umpire - those foul tips are painful. Getting hit full face by a coordinated effort by two punks shouldn't be one of them.
Exactly. This is why they should be brought up on criminal charges with the possibility of facing jail time.
Some of you may want to read Rick Reilly's take on "The Pitch" onESPN.com.
Assuming it was on purpose I ask the question why?
That ball is hard to follow. If you watch the video it almost looks like the ball hits the batters helmet and then hits the umpire. It might just be the angle. The umpire doesn't look hurt at all. The crowd reaction is strange too like everyone has seen it before, they even clap. Was that the opposing team side? I don't think it is right if intentional but will give the players the benefit of doubt (innocent until proven guilty).
The grip is hard to see but it almost looks like a curve or a slider. If he wanted to hit the ump you don't throw a breaking pitch, you throw a fastball. The ball either hits the helmet or has a break. Then look at the umpire. We have all seen an ump take a shot off a foul tip. The umps I have seen really need some time to shake off a shot. Watch the ump, he doesn't seem too phased. If that is a 92 mph fastball the ump would be more concerned with himself than the continuation of the game. The other ump, the coach all look like they aren't concerned. Now there are lawyers involved. We don't know for certain what happened so I would say No a pitcher should never throw at an ump but we honestly don't know what really happened here.
The grip is hard to see but it almost looks like a curve or a slider. If he wanted to hit the ump you don't throw a breaking pitch, you throw a fastball. The ball either hits the helmet or has a break. Then look at the umpire. We have all seen an ump take a shot off a foul tip. The umps I have seen really need some time to shake off a shot. Watch the ump, he doesn't seem too phased. If that is a 92 mph fastball the ump would be more concerned with himself than the continuation of the game. The other ump, the coach all look like they aren't concerned. Now there are lawyers involved. We don't know for certain what happened so I would say No a pitcher should never throw at an ump but we honestly don't know what really happened here.