Pitchers, Please throw a real pitch on the last warmup

Ptichers are supposed to be taught to use their last warm up w/ FB middle to both assure confidence in throwing that strike on command and allow catcher to make a good throwdown, discouraging opposing team from running.

cabbagedad posted:

Ptichers are supposed to be taught to use their last warm up w/ FB middle to both assure confidence in throwing that strike on command and allow catcher to make a good throwdown, discouraging opposing team from running.

Yes. It drives me nuts watching pitchers throw an 80% curveball in the dirt.  

I had my pitcher use that last warm-up pitch to throw a pitch-out for the catcher to work on their technique to start the game.   From there, I wanted a boxed FB.  

I think that is on the coach more than the pitcher. I had a couple pitchers that would just lob the last pitch in, then I explained to them that it was more about the catcher getting his work. One told me he never thought about that

Warm up pitches between innings isn’t for catcher to work on their technique or get his work in...WTH?!  If pitcher wants to throw an 80% fastball or bounce a curve in the dirt, to use later in the game, well he's got the ball in his hand. Catchers should be prepared to receive and throw on any pitch, not a perfectly framed FB.

The only thing the pitcher SHOULD do is pitch from the stretch for the throw down.

The last game my son played the opposing pitcher threw crappy pitches during warm ups. He saw 9 kids in the opposite dugout staring and 4 hitters in the on deck trying to time him.

Thoughts on pitchers staying in the wind-up on the last pitch instead of stretch as it will be the same motion he will be in on the very next pitch to start the inning? (Unless he is a stretch only guy)

CTbballDad posted:

Warm up pitches between innings isn’t for catcher to work on their technique or get his work in...WTH?!  If pitcher wants to throw an 80% fastball or bounce a curve in the dirt, to use later in the game, well he's got the ball in his hand. Catchers should be prepared to receive and throw on any pitch, not a perfectly framed FB.

The only thing the pitcher SHOULD do is pitch from the stretch for the throw down.

Then you don't see the benefit of having that last pitch be a pitch out?  I want to showcase my catcher's arm and also plant a seed in the opposing coach's mind that we do pitch out.  

Bottom line, warm up pitchers are used for the pitcher to get warm, after sitting on the bench, and to feel good for the upcoming inning.  If he needs to work on some pitches, he maybe struggled with the prior inning, that's the time to work on them.

It's a 7/9 inning game, there's time to have the C show off his arm.  If you want to have a pitch out, go ahead, but not sure you would do that every inning.  If you want to plant seeds, you can obviously do that with the pitcher as well, and that will come into play much more than the C will.

I agree the C is an extremely important position, 2nd only to the P!

My son will generally adjust his warmup pitches during the game depending on what he needs to work on. If he started the game and his off CB isn't working, next inning he's likely to throw 3 of 5 curveballs in his warmups.

I would disagree on both.  My son and most other good pitchers I have seen never show their best stuff during warmups.  That is what bullpen is for.  They don't want the other batters to time them up or see their offspeed pitches until they step in the batters box.  His first pitch is a crow hop style pitch from behind the mound that looks like it is going 100 then gets on the mound and throws 7 75% fastballs if that many.  Never an offspeed.  The last one is a fastball about 75% at the most up in the zone.  Most of his catchers do not throw hard into second because they want the runners to guess.  The best catcher I have seen him throw to would throw it into centerfield every time and then look at the opposing dugout and wink and smile.  That is like not showing your best pickoff move on the first throw over.  You want them to guess. 

The only time my son has thrown full speed to a catcher was when they were at a true showcase and he threw it up in the zone so the  catcher would get a good jump on it for a good throw down because they were timing the catchers on the throwdown. 

If either the pitcher or catcher are waiting until between innings to work on their stuff they have no business out there.  That is for warmups and then show your stuff once the ump yells "play ball"

Did anyone read the op. 

greatgame posted:

Did anyone read the op. 

I read it.  His kid is a catcher so he wants his son to get a good ball so he can throw down.  I'm saying that is not the case for most pitcher's and many catchers.  I don't believe you show what you have until you have to.  The same logic would go with the coach who hits a crazy in/out before a game.  I have seen guys who hit shots at their infielders and made their outfielders look stupid with the balls they hit.  Mine was always hit them easy balls where they can go through the motions because it is really just a dog and pony show before the game.

Some of you guys are putting way too much thought into this.  Throw mostly fastballs since that is the majority of what you will throw.  Throw a curve and change to get the feel for it.  All pitches at 85% to 90%.  Last pitch go from the stretch and throw a good quality fastball so the catcher can make a good throw.

If my pitcher can be 1.1 to 1.2 and my catcher is 2.0 to 2.1 I absolutely want the other team seeing that because that will shut down a lot of teams running games.

thanks coach2709, I thought I was missing something

I still hold there are two distinct mindsets.  Show it to keep them from running or don't show it to throw them out whether you are talking throwdowns or pickoffs or in/out before a game.  I think coaches, pitchers and catchers have one or the other.  It gets real interesting when a pitcher has one mentality which is what you are describing and the catcher has another.  I think all are different and it is up to the coach what he wants done in between innings.  Many times my son will only take 2-3 pitches between innings if he is feeling really good.  I have also seen catchers who will never throw down to second and the ss's daddy complains that he doesn't get to show his skills.  My ultimate is who cares, it is warmups not real game.  If you really want to know what a catcher or pitcher or ss or lf or first baseman can do it is what happens in the game.  I know catchers who say they can throw 2.0 but can't throw a snail out during a real game because they hesitate with a batter in the box.

If you're not going to show it then don't bother doing it at all.  Don't let the catcher throw down, don't have the pitcher put any effort into warm up pitches, don't take IF / OF or BP before the game.  if you're going to hide it then hide it.  But now what happens when you're 2.0 catcher doesn't throw anybody out because the conditions aren't perfect - off speed pitch, ball in the dirt, pitcher doesn't hold very well - but if the other team sees in pregame he has a hose and decides it's not worth it?  My team runs and we will run on anybody but if I know you're good then we become a LOT more selective.  We look for off speed situations because I'm pretty sure a fastball is going to get my guy out.  If I see the RF has a cannon in IF / OF I'm going to think twice about sending my runner.  

If you have the tools then show them.  There's a reason why some teams win games before the first pitch.  Also, if someone is there to scout your catcher and you tell him to not take the throw down serious and he doesn't get a chance in the game then how did you help him?

This stuff isn't complicated - have intent and go hard.

PitchingFan posted:

Most of his catchers do not throw hard into second because they want the runners to guess.  The best catcher I have seen him throw to would throw it into centerfield every time and then look at the opposing dugout and wink and smile. .... You want them to guess. 

 

There are two schools of thought about the catcher's  throwdown after the pitcher's final warmup pitch.

I'm in the other school.

I prefer a maximum throwdown because I want to deter the third base coach from flashing the steal sign in the first place,  rather than suckering him into flashing the steal sign, and now we have to execute.

My philosophy worked pretty good.  We went 40-10 and threw out 91% of those wanted to steal.   If your catcher has not thrown hard until they step behind for warmups then you aren't doing your job warming up in the outfield and bullpen.  The catcher should go through their routines out there which should include a couple of hard throwdowns. 

So for you guys who want to show it all.  Do you hit hard to your fielders when doing in/out or do you groove them the ball.  Because if you truly believe all out then you should make them work for balls.  They should miss a few balls because you are hitting it that hard and in those spots.  I've seen it but I always laughed and said way to make your guys look bad. 

Again, two ways to think and do it and obviously by this thread they are clear cut.  I want outs so I'm gonna make you run then shut you down.  Take the free outs when they give them.  I loved coaching against guys who broke their stopwatches out during warmups.  My right fielder looked like he didn't have an arm until you rounded third and then he gunned you at home and laughed.  Our philosophy was let them run themselves out of games.  Make them think they can run and then make them look silly. 

PitchingFan posted:

My philosophy worked pretty good.  We went 40-10 and threw out 91% of those wanted to steal.   If your catcher has not thrown hard until they step behind for warmups then you aren't doing your job warming up in the outfield and bullpen.  The catcher should go through their routines out there which should include a couple of hard throwdowns. 

So for you guys who want to show it all.  Do you hit hard to your fielders when doing in/out or do you groove them the ball.  Because if you truly believe all out then you should make them work for balls.  They should miss a few balls because you are hitting it that hard and in those spots.  I've seen it but I always laughed and said way to make your guys look bad. 

Again, two ways to think and do it and obviously by this thread they are clear cut.  I want outs so I'm gonna make you run then shut you down.  Take the free outs when they give them.  I loved coaching against guys who broke their stopwatches out during warmups.  My right fielder looked like he didn't have an arm until you rounded third and then he gunned you at home and laughed.  Our philosophy was let them run themselves out of games.  Make them think they can run and then make them look silly. 

 

Well, 91% caught stealing is WAY above norm.  In most competitive leagues, the runner is successful more often than not.  Thus, the reason most will discourage the running game in the first place if they have the tools to show.  I guess if that's the way your league is, that's a different set of circumstances.

For me, if find myself in a tight game with a runner on in the 6th and the catcher hasn't made a hard throwdown since pre-game, well how confident can he be in making an accurate strong throw almost two hours later?  

Also, I don't think we are quite comparing apples and apples when talking about having C make a hard throwdown and hitting missiles at your IF's in pregame. 

Lastly, I'm a little confused with your RF scenario... if you rely on pre-game for them to get their strong reps, wouldn't the opposition have seen the throws then?  We always watch opponent's pre-game.  I don't understand how they could have been fooled by his between-innings lobs. 

Always good healthy debate here.  JMO.  Obviously, you have something that works very well for your situation.

From original post "I've seen it countless times. Down to the last warm up pitch before the inning starts and the pitcher won't really even think about the throw they just lob something in. Not using their normal mechanics or pitching speed and the ball ends up in the dirt way early or very off the mark more times then not."

Pitcher should get in the stretch, throw a fastball.  If the catcher doesn't throw down I  don't care, the pitcher did what he was supposed to do and I believe that was the point of the op. Maybe I don't get.

Kind of odd. I've watched hundreds of HS and HS-age games, not thousands like many of you but still, quite a few. And I have never noticed a tendency of many pitchers to throw skuds to the catcher on their last warm up.  If anything, what I have seen is pitchers throwing perfect pitches during warm-ups, and then 4 straight balls to start the inning.  Maybe it's a regional thing.

What I have also seen is pitchers who are too macho to squat or take a step or two off the mound after throwing their last warm-up in order to give the catcher a little room. Sometimes it seems like they are almost daring the catcher to buzz them, and now and then, he does.

PitchingFan posted:

My philosophy worked pretty good.  We went 40-10 and threw out 91% of those wanted to steal.   If your catcher has not thrown hard until they step behind for warmups then you aren't doing your job warming up in the outfield and bullpen.  The catcher should go through their routines out there which should include a couple of hard throwdowns. 

So for you guys who want to show it all.  Do you hit hard to your fielders when doing in/out or do you groove them the ball.  Because if you truly believe all out then you should make them work for balls.  They should miss a few balls because you are hitting it that hard and in those spots.  I've seen it but I always laughed and said way to make your guys look bad. 

Again, two ways to think and do it and obviously by this thread they are clear cut.  I want outs so I'm gonna make you run then shut you down.  Take the free outs when they give them.  I loved coaching against guys who broke their stopwatches out during warmups.  My right fielder looked like he didn't have an arm until you rounded third and then he gunned you at home and laughed.  Our philosophy was let them run themselves out of games.  Make them think they can run and then make them look silly. 

 

Seriously - 91%???  You are the greatest coach in the history of coaching.  I want to be just like you.

Ironic, at my daughter's softball game yesterday, we played a perennial powerhouse.  The opposing team went behind their own dugout while we took infield.  Obviously, their coaches don't want their players watching the other team take in/out.  But the coaches were there watching.

Of course, I told the other dads about this thread...

My son Always threw a seed to get the catcher a solid throw down. He appreciated the defense and help a catcher provided.

coach2709 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

My philosophy worked pretty good.  We went 40-10 and threw out 91% of those wanted to steal.   If your catcher has not thrown hard until they step behind for warmups then you aren't doing your job warming up in the outfield and bullpen.  The catcher should go through their routines out there which should include a couple of hard throwdowns. 

So for you guys who want to show it all.  Do you hit hard to your fielders when doing in/out or do you groove them the ball.  Because if you truly believe all out then you should make them work for balls.  They should miss a few balls because you are hitting it that hard and in those spots.  I've seen it but I always laughed and said way to make your guys look bad. 

Again, two ways to think and do it and obviously by this thread they are clear cut.  I want outs so I'm gonna make you run then shut you down.  Take the free outs when they give them.  I loved coaching against guys who broke their stopwatches out during warmups.  My right fielder looked like he didn't have an arm until you rounded third and then he gunned you at home and laughed.  Our philosophy was let them run themselves out of games.  Make them think they can run and then make them look silly. 

 

Seriously - 91%???  You are the greatest coach in the history of coaching.  I want to be just like you.

Thanks.  I framed this and put it on my shelf right next to the Greatest Dad in the World coffee cup.  Only a few more Greatest things to accomplish in life. (Total Sarcasm).

I love when guys on here can't handle someone who does something different than them.  I didn't attack you for being a throw it hard guy and show them what you got but I reckon there are two types of people in this world.   I just think there are two thoughts on this and neither has to be wrong.

Our high caught stealing rate was due to having 2 dominant left handed pitchers who we worked hard to have great pickoff and hold moves.  Plus a rightie who had one of the best pickoff moves I have seen, had it when I got there.  Our catcher had a quick pop time and we read runners well.  Plus we gained a reputation for throwing guys out or picking them off and teams stopped running.

I was reading an old post from 06 where Fungo made a great point.  If the throw is good and beats the runner then it is a CS and an error on the SS or 2nd baseman which most don't give.  I was good at rewarding my guys doing things right and punished stat wise those who made errors.  Understanding what stats really mean and having a good bookkeeper helps in some stats and hurts in others. 

PitchingFan posted:

I was reading an old post from 06 where Fungo made a great point.  If the throw is good and beats the runner then it is a CS and an error on the SS or 2nd baseman which most don't give.  I was good at rewarding my guys doing things right and punished stat wise those who made errors.  Understanding what stats really mean and having a good bookkeeper helps in some stats and hurts in others. 

This is huge, and probably the subject of another topic, but I couldn't resist. My son's long-time catching coach always told him to go ahead and accept that every stolen base is on him and get better to make up for whatever shortcomings teammates might have in that area. I think he probably said this sort of tongue in cheek but there was an air of seriousness to it as well. That said, on more than on occasion, I've told my son that the skill level in these areas will increase as he moves along in level of baseball; pitchers will hold runners better & be more efficient to the plate, MIF's will make better tags and let the ball travel, etc. Let's hope that's the case as I don't recall seeing a single error recorded in his four years of HS on the one receiving the throw on a SB or unsuccessful back-pick.

PitchingFan posted:

..I framed this and put it on my shelf right next to the Greatest Dad in the World coffee cup. .. 

Haha... my favorite coffee mug in the house is one that one of our kids gave me... the kid I would least expect it from.  It has some sort of championship cup trophy logo and reads "Thanks Dad.  I turned out awesome."

PitchingFan posted:

 Fungo made a great point.  If the throw is good and beats the runner then it is a CS and an error on the SS or 2nd baseman which most don't give.  

A lot of tag attempts at second base are split-second train-wrecks that exceed  "ordinary effort".

PitchingFan posted:

coach2709 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

My philosophy worked pretty good.  We went 40-10 and threw out 91% of those wanted to steal.   If your catcher has not thrown hard until they step behind for warmups then you aren't doing your job warming up in the outfield and bullpen.  The catcher should go through their routines out there which should include a couple of hard throwdowns. 

So for you guys who want to show it all.  Do you hit hard to your fielders when doing in/out or do you groove them the ball.  Because if you truly believe all out then you should make them work for balls.  They should miss a few balls because you are hitting it that hard and in those spots.  I've seen it but I always laughed and said way to make your guys look bad. 

Again, two ways to think and do it and obviously by this thread they are clear cut.  I want outs so I'm gonna make you run then shut you down.  Take the free outs when they give them.  I loved coaching against guys who broke their stopwatches out during warmups.  My right fielder looked like he didn't have an arm until you rounded third and then he gunned you at home and laughed.  Our philosophy was let them run themselves out of games.  Make them think they can run and then make them look silly. 

 

Seriously - 91%???  You are the greatest coach in the history of coaching.  I want to be just like you.

Thanks.  I framed this and put it on my shelf right next to the Greatest Dad in the World coffee cup.  Only a few more Greatest things to accomplish in life. (Total Sarcasm).

I love when guys on here can't handle someone who does something different than them.  I didn't attack you for being a throw it hard guy and show them what you got but I reckon there are two types of people in this world.   I just think there are two thoughts on this and neither has to be wrong.

Our high caught stealing rate was due to having 2 dominant left handed pitchers who we worked hard to have great pickoff and hold moves.  Plus a rightie who had one of the best pickoff moves I have seen, had it when I got there.  Our catcher had a quick pop time and we read runners well.  Plus we gained a reputation for throwing guys out or picking them off and teams stopped running.

I was reading an old post from 06 where Fungo made a great point.  If the throw is good and beats the runner then it is a CS and an error on the SS or 2nd baseman which most don't give.  I was good at rewarding my guys doing things right and punished stat wise those who made errors.  Understanding what stats really mean and having a good bookkeeper helps in some stats and hurts in others. 

I don't care how you do things.  That is up to you and how you want to run your program.  I was explaining my thoughts on it.  I wasn't trying to change your mind.  I honestly don't care.

But I still don't believe the 91% rate.  That is either made up or you had a talented team playing very weak competition.