Pitchers QAB

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
Sorry I was unsure what to call it. But I was wondering if anyone has ever developed a pitchers quality at bat chart. Similar to that of a batter but in reverse.

If not what could be a neg and pos for a pitchers approach.

I think that’s a great question! I’ve tinkered with it over the years, but it simply doesn’t make a lot of sense for anyone other than a coach to come up with a definition, and I’ve not yet seen that from a coach.

However, one metric I do run, is objective pitching stats. See http://www.infosports.com/scor...ages/objpitching.pdf

Like the one I run for batters, this one contains only those data points which are completely objective. It would be easy enough for me to also include things like number of ABs finished in less than 4 pitches, but to tell the truth, I was never asked to do it, and since I do provide those kinds of things in other metrics, I saw no reason to add them.

By all means, be my guest and see if there’s anything there you can use in some kind of definition, and let us know what you come up with.

This is not a lot different from just calculating the opponent on-base percentage; that and first strike % and % strikes, and maybe WHIP would be my key QAB'esque indicators for pitchers.

We do not have a Quality Pitching Chart but we have % goals that we want to see met

Leadoff man retired 67%
First pitch strike 65%
Two of first three pitches strikes 75%
Hits per inning 1.0
3 base on balls
Strike out to walk ratio 66%
Ball/Strike ratio 62%
ERA 3.00
Pitches per inning 15.0

I sat down with some of my pitcher and came up with one. We call it the Quality Outing Report.

POSTIVE BATTER FACED
STRIKE OUT
1ST PITCH OUT
WIN BATTLE
WEAK GROUND BALL
LESS THAN 10 PITCH INNING
3 BATTER INNING
STRIKE OUT SIDE
POP UP
DOUBLE PLAY
WIN
OTHER
2:1 BALL STRIKE RATIO
3:1 BALL STRIKE RATIO
NO WALKS IN GAME
COMPLETE GAME
SHUT OUT
PERFECT GAME
NO HITTER

NEGATIVE BATTER FACED
WALK
HIT BATTER
WILD PITCH
1B
2B
3B
4B
WALK IN RUN
LOSE OF BATTLE
6 OR MORE PITCHES
EARNED RUN
HARD HIT BALL
ATTITUDE
LOSS
OTHER
BLOWN SAVE
WALK BASES LOADED
3 OR MORE WALKS

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
We do not have a Quality Pitching Chart but we have % goals that we want to see met

Leadoff man retired 67%
First pitch strike 65%
Two of first three pitches strikes 75%
Hits per inning 1.0
3 base on balls
Strike out to walk ratio 66%
Ball/Strike ratio 62%
ERA 3.00
Pitches per inning 15.0

I like those as goals for a season, but as I understand QABs, its something coaches use much more on a “per game” basis than as a season stat. It almost looks like there’s a mix of the two thoughts in your goals. I’ll say this though, if you’ve got kids who are throwing 65% 1st pitch strikes even for a game, let alone on a regular basis, I’d sure like you to write a paper about how you’ve managed to go about making that happen, and send me a copy.

Until last season, my kid was the only pitcher I’d ever seen in 12 years who’d thrown a significant number of innings, was over 60% FPS, and he was only 63%. This other kid has been all league since he was a So 2 years ago, and he’s only at 61%.

What’s good about them is that they’re reasonable goals for a game. Unfortunately, over a season its much more difficult to perform at extremely high levels.

How do you use the goals and who does all your computin’?

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
I sat down with some of my pitcher and came up with one. We call it the Quality Outing Report.
…

I see a lot of interesting things in it, but quite frankly to me there’s way too many items on the list. I’ve found that when there are too many items making up the computation for any particular metric, people easily lose interest in it. But if it works for your purposes, its all good!

We use game changer so it pretty much computes itself. In regards to the goals because they are reasonable game goals I also believe they are reasonable season goals. Are kids going to reach these goals day in and day out no. In regards to FPS we keep things simple. We set up, most of the time, down the middle and at the knees. We preach pound the fast balls and get me over Curve Balls on first pitch. Currently we are sitting at 63% with our #1 at 70%. If we look at LOM we have played 4 games now and our Lead Off man percentage is 79% with our #1 at 85%.

In regards to how to we use these goals you would need to elaborate on what you mean.

quote:

I see a lot of interesting things in it, but quite frankly to me there’s way too many items on the list. I’ve found that when there are too many items making up the computation for any particular metric, people easily lose interest in it. But if it works for your purposes, its all good!

It is still in it developmental stages. I plan on subtracting things and adding things over time. I am using it more as a reflecting tool rather than anything else. The pitchers were getting upset because the batter got to see their charts that told them everything they did at an a bat and the pitcher did not. So i just created something. Now the pitcher are happy but we have yet to test it in a game.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
We use game changer so it pretty much computes itself. In regards to the goals because they are reasonable game goals I also believe they are reasonable season goals. Are kids going to reach these goals day in and day out no. In regards to FPS we keep things simple. We set up, most of the time, down the middle and at the knees. We preach pound the fast balls and get me over Curve Balls on first pitch. Currently we are sitting at 63% with our #1 at 70%. If we look at LOM we have played 4 games now and our Lead Off man percentage is 79% with our #1 at 85%.

In regards to how to we use these goals you would need to elaborate on what you mean.

Gamechanger is certainly that. A lot of people are getting to see the things folks like me have been seeing for a decade, and wondering why they’d never seen them before. Its just too bad they’ve so far been unable to do some of the things I think are imperative, which is why I use my own program. Maybe one day they’ll make the things I need available, and I’ll go to it myself.

That’s an absolutely amazing FPS number. Have you run the numbers to see how that affects W/Ls? I’ve tinkered around with the numbers to see what if anything has the most effect on winning or losing games. The 3 reports at this link deal with pitch % and FPS %. To be honest, I‘ve been very surprised over the years to see that FPS is one of the least reliable indicators. Of course that’s only for our team and only for 5 years.

http://www.infosports.com/scor...r/images/comppct.pdf

Personally, I like the idea of setting up down the middle and low, rather than trying to be cute and picking at corners, but it’s a very tough sell to a lot of coaches. I can see at the pro level that it might cause problems, but at the HS level, with the average HS pitcher lucky to throw the ball within 2’ of where he wants it, and the average HS hitter lucky to square up anything not on a tee, making it simple means making it easier to do.

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
It is still in it developmental stages. I plan on subtracting things and adding things over time. I am using it more as a reflecting tool rather than anything else. The pitchers were getting upset because the batter got to see their charts that told them everything they did at an a bat and the pitcher did not. So i just created something. Now the pitcher are happy but we have yet to test it in a game.

I completely understand. Over the years, almost every time I create some metric for the pitchers, the hitters want the same thing, and the same will happen if its something I create for the hitters, because the pitchers want it. And of course, the parents want everything, and in the most minute of details. LOL!

I sure don’t want to foist anything over on you, but I’ve been doin’ this stuff for a long while now, and may well have something you could use too. Go to http://infosports.com/scorekeeper/
On the left side of the page there’s links to Batting, Pitching, and Defensive stats for both one season and cumulative stats for the team for all the years they’ve played. Go through them, and if you see something you like, by all means use it. And if there’s something you don’t understand, just ask.

Thanks I will check it out.

I honestly could care less about the overall result in terms of numbers. What I am liking from it, is that the players are getting to slow down the game and learning from the decisions they are making rather than just show up and swinging a stick. I think they have been really learning the true game inside the game. The game all the coach know.

Stats,
I agree that FPS can be a little unreliable. However when you look a gamechanger they list FPS and FPSO which is outs after FPS. I have a pitcher that his FPS is 45% but his FPSO is 82% so you would have to put weight to it. All my pitchers have a higher FPSO than there FPS. I put more weight in LOM and 2 our of the first 3 pitches are strikes % that the FPS. We have 1 guy that is horrible at FPS but is a very effective pitcher and his LOM and 2 out of 3 strikes are a whole lot better. I do not believe that FPS factor greatly to wins and losses but I have seen that when we throw 2 of the first 3 for strikes and dominate the LOM it always gives us a chance to win games.

The other thing I like about Gamechnager compared to maxpreps is that there stats are more detailed and you can lock your stats for a small fee. When we used maxpreps I had a lot of in fighting amongst players and parents questioning stats, mostly around batting average which we do not even put a lot of weight in.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Stats,
I agree that FPS can be a little unreliable. However when you look a gamechanger they list FPS and FPSO which is outs after FPS. I have a pitcher that his FPS is 45% but his FPSO is 82% so you would have to put weight to it. All my pitchers have a higher FPSO than there FPS. I put more weight in LOM and 2 our of the first 3 pitches are strikes % that the FPS. We have 1 guy that is horrible at FPS but is a very effective pitcher and his LOM and 2 out of 3 strikes are a whole lot better. I do not believe that FPS factor greatly to wins and losses but I have seen that when we throw 2 of the first 3 for strikes and dominate the LOM it always gives us a chance to win games.

The other thing I like about Gamechnager compared to maxpreps is that there stats are more detailed and you can lock your stats for a small fee. When we used maxpreps I had a lot of in fighting amongst players and parents questioning stats, mostly around batting average which we do not even put a lot of weight in.

Let me say this about MP and GC. They’re partners, and they have two totally different functions. All MP does, and all they want to do right now, is be a repository for nationwide HS stats. I’ve talked with them at some length about more things they could do with the numbers, but they honestly don’t want to spend the time and money to do that, when it quite honestly wouldn’t attract many more customers. Heck, they can’t get 99% of the teams to input the 50 baseball data points they have now. And the vast majority of those that do, are using some piece of software like GC to export into it.

IOW, they do a pretty darn good job of doing what they do. Folks like myself who want more, do it. Believe me, scouts and coaches love being able to go to MP to get lots of stuff like rosters, class, positions, basic stats, and schedules, and GC can’t provide that. Heck, in our local area, the umpires assn takes care of schedules and inputting game scores too. Those things take big loads off of coaches who don’t have some whackjob like me to do it for them, and they appreciate it.

As for FPS, over the years I’ve learned that a lot of metrics developed and used for MLB, simply don’t work for lower levels the way they work for MLB, and FPS is one of them. For the HS level, an FPS is important, but because HS pitchers have nothing like the skill set of a ML pitcher, it’s a lot like tossing a coin as to whether or not a FPS will help decisively.

Since I don’t do FPSO, I really can’t gauge its use or what value to give it. Until I’d done a little data mining myself, I wouldn’t know if it was normal for a pitcher to have an FPSO% higher than an FPS%, and it’s the same for those other metrics you were talking about. I don’t doubt at all that they have great value, but you have to remember, I’ve been looking at metrics you’ve never heard of for 15 years, so I’m a little slower to claim something as being the new super metric.

Like I said before, until you run some kind of check to see how those things relate to wins and losses, you never know. But the bottom line here isn’t whether or not GC’s stats are better than mine or MP’s. The bottom line is that anything that gets coaches to study and trust the numbers rather than those old “gut feelings” or “perceptions”, is a really good thing. I honestly believe that the more that happens, the more often players who don’t fit some kind of “profile” will get more opportunities, because there will be proof they can do the job better. IOW, the numbers remove a lot of those biases, and I like that!

IEBSBL,

I went and looked at the list of GC stats, but the only thing I saw about 3 pitches or less for pitchers were:

<3: At bat with 3-or-fewer pitches
<3%: 3-for-fewer pitch at bats per batter faced

I was looking for the [i]2 our of the first 3 pitches are strikes %[i] metric you mentioned. Is that something new? I was curious about how our guys would look, so I thought I’d do a little data mining. But I need to know what the criteria are.

Here’s my interpretation of what you said.

Minimum of 3 pitches
Ball/strike count after 3 pitches is 1-2 or 0-3

Then the number of batters that meet those conditions is divided by the total number of at bats for each pitcher.

Sound right?

That is correct. 2 out of 3 is not a gamechanger stat. It is a stat that I picked up along the way through college and the HS coaches that I started to coach with. Gamechanger sort of does it for you though. If you were able to look at the score sheet of a game it tells you which tell you in progression which pitches were strikes and balls.

For example....
S 125
B 34

I also agree with you about the FPSO. This is the first year we have used game changer so I will keep you updated. The thing that I really like to se is the break down of the pitches and the percentages that they are thrown at. He really makes you stop and think that especially at the HS level the fastball is truly the best pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
That is correct. 2 out of 3 is not a gamechanger stat. It is a stat that I picked up along the way through college and the HS coaches that I started to coach with. Gamechanger sort of does it for you though. If you were able to look at the score sheet of a game it tells you which tell you in progression which pitches were strikes and balls.

For example....
S 125
B 34

I also agree with you about the FPSO. This is the first year we have used game changer so I will keep you updated. The thing that I really like to se is the break down of the pitches and the percentages that they are thrown at. He really makes you stop and think that especially at the HS level the fastball is truly the best pitch.

You sneaky son-uv-a-gun! I had a feeling you were one of those crazies like me.

One of the things I’ve done since I was a kid scoring games, was to mark the pitches with a number so I’d get the progressions. When I wrote my original stat program, the single most time consuming data to put in, was that data. I had to enter every single pitch in the correct order, plus the result. Sometimes that meant putting in more than 300 records for just one game for the pitchers, then the same thing for our hitters. Now that I allow the computer to do what it does best, I’ve saved myself one heck of a lot of time.

Take a look at http://www.infosports.com/scor...mages/scoresheet.pdf That’s the scoresheet I generate. Its based on “Project Scoresheet” scoring, and I’m really liking it more and more every day.

Something I don’t and won’t do, is track pitch types or locations. I know people love it, and I know they honestly believe they’ve gotten a pitch and a location right, even though they may be sitting in the worst location to tell, but the results are not accurate enough for me. With Pitch(f/x), the whole world of pro baseball changed because of its ability to be accurate, but I don’t see that happening at the HS level for quite some time. What I expect, is a small device that will allow the catcher to note the pitch type and location that will cost about $20, and be able to be dumped onto a computer for analysis.

Take a look at http://www.infosports.com/scor...per/images/temp1.pdf its something I threw together yesterday afternoon. How close is it to what you’re doing?

Your charts are pretty much in line with what we do. I agree with what you are saying about location. Unless you have a knowledgeable guy that knows exact pitch, location, and is directly behind homeplate location can be useless and unreliable. We do track on game changer what pitch was thrown and it computes for us the percentage of that type of pitch. I have never had this before and I really like it.

We just did our first test run. Our pitcher had a great game and threw a complete game. He ended up with 45 points. So he is the standard or the person to beat for the rest of the pitchers.

Good things was on the ride home we got to sit down and go over every pitch with the catcher and pitcher. They got to discuss what worked and what did not. It was amazing to watch them debate their approaches after about 6 hitters I could of walked away from the conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
We just did our first test run. Our pitcher had a great game and threw a complete game. He ended up with 45 points. So he is the standard or the person to beat for the rest of the pitchers.

If you’re using a computer to track them, would you mind posting his numbers? I’m always curious to see the numbers behind the numbers.

quote:

Good things was on the ride home we got to sit down and go over every pitch with the catcher and pitcher. They got to discuss what worked and what did not. It was amazing to watch them debate their approaches after about 6 hitters I could of walked away from the conversation.

That brings up an interesting subject. When my son pitched, the team would take the bus to away games, but almost all the kids rode home with parents or friends. The school I score for now, has no transportation to away games other than parents and volunteers, so again it would be almost impossible to have that immediate after-game feedback.

Isn’t it funny how there’s so many different ways the same things are accomplished? From the standpoint of baseball, I’d say make them all ride the team bus to and from games. But from the standpoint of reality, I don’t want to waste a bunch of time unnecessarily driving around. FI, tonight we have a game that 33 miles from the school. But most of the players live at least 5-10 miles from the school, so it just takes that much more time to get them home, fed, and into their studies.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Your charts are pretty much in line with what we do. I agree with what you are saying about location. Unless you have a knowledgeable guy that knows exact pitch, location, and is directly behind homeplate location can be useless and unreliable. We do track on game changer what pitch was thrown and it computes for us the percentage of that type of pitch. I have never had this before and I really like it.

I thought they might be, but I had to ask. BTW, I have a game this afternoon, but I might be tinkering with that metric just a bit.

I’m gonna ask ya something, but I want to warn you, you might get offended. But please don’t be. I’m only trying to point out that there have always been ways to get those numbers. Here goes.

Why didn’t you track what pitches were thrown before? The only thing that’s changed is that you have a different kind of “tablet” to write it down on.

One of the things I’ve found most frustrating over the years, isn’t that there’s been such a lack of people at the lower level using numbers, but rather the lack of people unwilling to even consider doing it because of the perception that it was “too hard” to do. Back in 2002, my son’s JV coach asked me to add pitch types and their numbers into my metrics, and I told him I would.

The next game I handed him a 2X6” notebook, and told him to mark down whatever pitch he sent in. Of course he immediately handed off the job to an assistant, but after the game I was given a small sheet of paper, which I turned into many different metrics during that season. Later that year, my son was promoted to the V, and of course I went with him. The V coach had seen what we’d done on the JV team, and asked me to do the same for the V. But when I handed him the notebook, he said he wanted me to do it, and I told him nicely, that that wasn’t gonna happen because I wasn’t gonna try to read the signs he was sending in, and I wasn’t gonna try to guess what pitches were being thrown. And that was the end of my trying to generate metrics like that.

I suspect, that even with GC, that guy wouldn’t be getting those things because he wouldn’t be entering whatever data necessary to do it. My point is, its always been possible to track anything, provided one was willing to do the necessary work to do it. And that’s pretty much where I’ve stood for all these years. People have believed I’m some kind of nut and that the numbers were useless, but I’ve argued over and over again that all it took was a little work and ingenuity, which is what folks like yourself are finally beginning to find out, and I think it’s a great thing for the game!

IEBSBL,

I took a few minutes to monkey around with that thing this morning. Please see http://www.infosports.com/scor...per/images/temp2.pdf

What I guessed might be happening is what I found, and I suspect if you look closely at your guys you’ll see the same thing. In ABs that end in 3 pitches or less, all of the pitchers get more than 50% outs.

I’m not sure that means a great deal, but there’s one thing for sure that can’t happen. There can be no walks.

Just to throw a little intrigue into this. On that list there’s a kid who was drafted in the 3rd round out of HS, another who was given a ride by a D1 school and is pitching for Ole Miss right now, and another in A ball.

Totally not offended at all about asking about why we didn't track those pitches. My aswer is I don't know. I guess since I was looking at overall strike % I just was looking at the overall picture. Now I see a different picture. For example we ask our pitchers to throw 66% strikes. We have a kid who goes FB 71%, Chng 50%, SL 40% and yet I kept wondering why the kids numbers did not meaure up. A) mechanically he is not sound B) OS is called way to much when we break the numbers down. 1 out of every 4 pitches is a slider which means out of every 10 only 4 will be a strike. As opposed to 7.1 FB out out of 10.

quote:

If you’re using a computer to track them, would you mind posting his numbers? I’m always curious to see the numbers behind the numbers. Wink

We have a parent keeping official record of the game using iscore. But for our charts and scorebook we keep paper and assign a duty to the players. This keeps everyone involved in the game and doing something.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Totally not offended at all about asking about why we didn't track those pitches. My aswer is I don't know. I guess since I was looking at overall strike % I just was looking at the overall picture. Now I see a different picture. For example we ask our pitchers to throw 66% strikes. We have a kid who goes FB 71%, Chng 50%, SL 40% and yet I kept wondering why the kids numbers did not meaure up. A) mechanically he is not sound B) OS is called way to much when we break the numbers down. 1 out of every 4 pitches is a slider which means out of every 10 only 4 will be a strike. As opposed to 7.1 FB out out of 10.

I’m gonna take a real wild guess here, and say that the overwhelming feelings toward HS stats being worthless for any kind of real decision making use, didn’t exactly “encourage” you to look outside the envelope.

If that’s true, believe me, you won’t be the 1st nor the last person affected by such antiquated thought. A few of us have fought that mindset tooth and nail over the years, with little success. But technology has lent us a great hand! People are finding out that it doesn’t take a thousand at bats or 500 IPs to get useful numbers. It only takes the willingness to open one’s mind to the possibilities, just the way you have.

Once people get past the idea that the “STANDARD” stats are the “BEST” stats, and that’s hhappening at an increasingly rapid pace, I think coaches who are wise enough to use what’s readily available, will find they’ll be able to much more efficiently use the player they have.

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
We have a parent keeping official record of the game using iscore. But for our charts and scorebook we keep paper and assign a duty to the players. This keeps everyone involved in the game and doing something.

You mean you never transfer the numbers on paper to electronic numbers? If I ever get the time, you and I are gonna have to work on a way to take care of that!

Stats4Gnats I use alot of paper and electronic things to evaluated progress. I use the QAB as a way to get my point across to the players. We can sit down and discuss each pitch of their at bats and each pitch of the pitching approach.

If you saw a chart I designed you would probably understand better.

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
Stats4Gnats I use alot of paper and electronic things to evaluated progress. I use the QAB as a way to get my point across to the players. We can sit down and discuss each pitch of their at bats and each pitch of the pitching approach.

If you saw a chart I designed you would probably understand better.

Well, I’m heartened to hear about a coach who has the kind of time available to work with his players on a pitch by pitch basis. My son’s a pitching coach on the JV team, and has told me many times how he wished he had the kind of time available with the boys to do that. About the best he’s been able to manage, is a brief discussion between innings during a game.

Can you send me along a copy of the chart? I’ll send you my email address in a PM.

Its hard but they come to my classroom early the day after. They also fill out a pitcher evaluation form after they pitch that allows me to speed up the conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
Its hard but they come to my classroom early the day after. They also fill out a pitcher evaluation form after they pitch that allows me to speed up the conversation.

Well, that explains at least part of it. My son’s not a teacher, and has a 20 mile drive just to get to the field, so there’s not a lot of “free” time available for him to do what you do.

But I am interested in this evaluation form you use. When you send me the chart, would you include the evaluation form?

Don’t forget to check your PM’s.

It should be in your email. I will send eval as well.