Pitchers running and the lactic acid myth

BOF- I've been fighting the "pitcher distance running" stuff for years now. Hopefully some will read through this article and grasp a better understanding of the physiology behind it. But what I've found is that it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

As illustrated in the fine piece by Cressey, no baseball player should ever run distance for any reason at all.

Originally Posted by J H:…As illustrated in the fine piece by Cressey, no baseball player should ever run distance for any reason at all.

 

Do you mean they shouldn’t do it as part of some training regimen, or that they shouldn’t do it ever because it’s counterproductive to their baseball skills? Personally, I don’t see why a ball player who does it for recreation should stop doing it.

       
       



Both. As Cressey's piece indicates, any long distance running is counterproductive for baseball training. Muscles don't know the difference between doing something for recreation and doing something for training.

Long distance running has no place in the game of baseball except to prohibit players from being the best that they can be.

I should note that the credit should be given to Rob Rabena, who wrote the piece, and not Cressey like I have been saying.

I'd be very interested if someone can find a single scientific study that supports distance running in this scenario. I have never seen one.

Sounds to me like it doesn't really hurt, just doesn't really help.  The only negative was increased soreness on the part of the pitchers ran distance.  It doesn't say if it was their arms or legs that were sore, just sore.  Here is the part I am talking about:

 

"My Master’s thesis, “The Effects of Interval Training on Pitching Performance of NCAA Division II pitchers”, examined the in-season steady state exercise and interval training on pitching performance. Prior to collecting data, I hypothesized that I was going to find a significant difference in pitching velocity, WHIP (walks+hits/innings pitched), 30m sprint time, fatigue index and muscle soreness.

The results of my thesis study found no significant difference (p>0.05) in any of the hypotheses.  However, there was a very strong trend (p=.071) for the distance training group presenting with more soreness based off a 0-10 scale.  The distance group did not drop in velocity, get slower, or decrease pitching performance like the previous studies suggested.  When examining the results of my thesis study with the current literature, I continue to question if there is an appropriate place and time to implement distance running for pitchers within a training cycle, and if so, when would it be most efficient to do so?"

 

I agree with the whole lactic acid thing, but I can't see how it would be a bad thing in terms of generally staying in shape.  I think if a pitcher is doing the other explosive type work as well, he should be fine.  If distance running, or running poles is the only thing a pitcher does, it may not help, but doing it with the other doesn't seem to hurt, at least according to the above statement.

Babysitters and parents use TV to keep the kids busy.

Coaches use long distance running to keep the players busy.

They'll resist scientific evidence that LDR is useless for baseball.

They'll say it builds mental toughness.

The sad part is they could keep them busy having them sprint and make them better at the same time.

Sprinting with explosive workouts seem to be the best combination.(all lifting should be phased and there is a period of mass building necessary) You can still get cardiovascular loading by reducing the intervals in some of the lifting cycles; which helps in recovery time. I know my son does no running other than sprints together with explosive work with some cardiovascular aspects. As part of his conditioning testing he had to run a mile for time and went out and ran a 5:30 without having done any running other than his sprint work so you don't need to run any distances for cardio buildup. 

Almost sent article ot his future pitchign coach, then I thought better of it! . What I read makes total sense but when we visited a couple of practices, coach talked about running to flush the lactic acid. Still he is 2014 and don't think I should be the one to send to his future coach.

chefmike,

Gosh I hope you are kidding!  I'm not sure what you're cooking in that kitchen, but thank God you didn't do that.  That is a big no-no here in parent land. 

I was kidding, promise. I do wish he would read it but would NEVER come from me  Only contribution I expect to make to the team when he arrives is probably feeding the team occassionally at my house since he is one of 2 local boys

Ron Wolforth has been preaching this for years but coaches continue to ignore science. Our schools coach believes in heavy lifting (bench press, curls, military press behind the head etc.) and running the mile or two mile.  My son got yelled at last week for telling him my coach from the college I committed to told me to not do these lifts.  Sad when ego's actually hurt kids.  I also this 60 times are crazy.  Why not measure 30 and 60 with a turn?

http://www.baseballstrength.or...hould-not-do-cardio/

Understand that running is not helpful for pitchers but what if son is not PO and plays another position also?  Should they run to stay in shape for other positions or is  article saying that running is not productive for any baseball athlete.?

My son did FASST (fitness, agility, speed, strength training) in the winter during high school. He told the trainer his conditioning should be geared towards baseball. There was zero long distance running. All the speed training was acceleration. The coach liked the condition he showed up for baseball so much he brought the trainer into the school baseball program. My son got enough long distance running in his soccer conditioning. 

There's basically no baseball need for aerobic training, the longest you ever go 100% in a baseball game is less than 20 seconds, and it's really rarely more than 10. Sprint training and core training are way more productive than general fitness, which is what any kind of distance/aerobic training mostly boils down to.

Bum, Jr. ran all the way through high school and college and it never bothered him.  But the pros don't want him to do distance running.

 

jacjacatk, general fitness is very important for endurance during a long season.  A tired player becomes an injured player.

My son's experience in "distance running" as part of po training was a disaster. His body, which was still growing, seemed to pull from other muscle groups to build up leg and lung strength. His arm and back stayed tired and had his one and only bout of tendinitis. He has recovered, and though he still runs a little bit, mixed with appropriate weights, and plyometric type training, the results are astonishing. 

 

as an aside, he was considering cross country in the fall in order to stay fit while in high school. A coach asked him not to, as it caused more injuries with lasting effects than any other sport. 

And there's nothing for a baseball player's general fitness that requires aerobic-focused training, especially distance running.

jac, in the post above you say aerobic is general fitness and now in this post you say general fitness doesn't require aerobic training.  Which is which?

 

I'm not a big advocate of running -- I hate it myself -- but it reduces stress, burns fat, and reduces the risk of heart disease.  Myself, I prefer to bike 5-6 miles a day.

 

For pitchers, I believe "general fitness" is an important aspect of training.  There is also an aerobic aspect of pitching, especially quick workers who are starters, although it is not primarily aerobic.

 

To each his own.  But I prefer an energetic, low body-fat pitcher over a tired fatso anyday. 

What I meant was that general fitness training (running, aerobics, whatever) isn't important to baseball fitness (I probably shouldn't have used "general fitness" in the second post).

 

Now, a baseball player who's substantially overweight might improve performance by getting in better shape and getting in better shape might involve some level of aerobic activity, so I don't really disagree with your position with regards to fatsoes.

 

For the typical HS/College/Pro player though, guys who are already in something between decent and great shape, real gains on the field are going to come from speed and strength training that focuses on anaerobic activity.  Distance running (or other aerobic focused activity) isn't going to help those guys be better baseball players.

Mostly I agree, but I don't think the concepts are mutually exclusive.  In fact, I believe these two aspects of training complement one another.  All I know is what has worked for my son.  He does it all.

Good points here thus far. I hope coaches take a peek.

Just a common sense perspective...I've always heard that when the legs get tired, you can't hit or pitch effectively.  I believe this.  I've seen it with my son.  When he's physically in top condition (from s**cer conditioning) he can catch a double header and look fresh and quick deep into the second game.  When he's not in good shape (s**cer off-season), he gets fatigued and doesn't hit or catch well.  He gets totally drained and just isn't on top of his game.  I don't see how conditioning training (ie distance running) can be anything but good for a ball player.

S****r training is great conditioning....lots of stop and go training, short bursts at maximum effort, completely different from long distance running.  Way back in the day I played a lot of tennis and basketball when not playing baseball.  I could play multiple sets or a few games for hours, no prob.  I could not run sustained distances for the life of me and always failed my timed distance run.  Never had an endurance problem in baseball, catching or pitching.

 

Fast forward to modern times I take up this argument in my current profession with several colleagues, to no avail.  As part of the try out process for my agencies SWAT team, there is a timed run.  There were/are many people that complete this portion with no probs, there are many that don't.  I argued that the timed distance run is no sign of fitness potential as it pertained to the job.  Well, the line was drawn and challenges were made to the the big "runners" on the team who preached distance running was the end all be all for fitness training.  A few sets, games and some flag football contests later, several of the "marathoners" found themselves gasping, on more than one occasion during these other events and there was only one that was able to complete a five set match of tennis.....point being.....they trained for long, slow endurance.  Their bodies were not trained for quick, short 100% output, over a period of time, with minimal recovery time....but hey, they could run.   Did I prove a point to the Team Commander, yes, did I change anyone's mind when it came to training, absolutely not....because it was status quo training techniques "used by everyone" in the business.

 

Train for your business, be it baseball or any other sport of job.  Counter productive training is a waste of time, unless you just like to do it.

Lefthook, the training at the college and pro levels of baseball are heavily geared towards explosive training.  Bum, Jr. estimates he's doing two or three times as much now as a pro as in college.  In college (and h.s.) he would do cardio every day, run poles, and on top of that would do plyometrics, weights, squats, sprints.. etc.  In the pros his organization frowns on long distance training but they're writing his check so he does what they tell him.  As for me, I believe that subtracting cardio (or "general fitness" jac described) leads to eventual fatigue and injury.  Bum, Jr's body fat % is at an elite athlete's level and to call cardio "counter-productive" is plain wrong, IMHO.  It's not either-or, you can do both.

 

 

I know a very good PT that preaches sprinting versus running , I heard him tell a kid that had to run a 2 mile condition test for his baseball team that he should sprint for 30 seconds and walk for 30 seconds..he could still finish the required distance in the required time and he would be better of for it...he was not a fan of long distance running for baseball players...