Pitches per Plate Appearance

For me; MAJOR VALUE. My theoretical basis for this is founded on two assumptions:


The first assumption is that any pitcher at any level has only so many pitches in his arm on that day before velocity starts to diminish, control starts to lapse and curve balls start to hang [the commonly accepted baseball adage that sinkerball pitchers get "more sink" when their arms are tired aside].

The second assumption is that any pitcher that follows the starting pitcher is not as good as the starting pitcher or he would be the starting pitcher.

Ergo, the more pitches per plate appearance a TEAM averages, the sooner everyone gets to hit inferior pitching. However, it does not compute that a 6+ pitch at bat each time up by one hitter is helpful to the team if everyone else is first pitch swinging. There needs to be at least 6 or 7 hitters in a lineup with that philosophy to make it a consistently successful strategy. And I would add, the lower the level of play, the better the theory should work because the further down you go [MLB, Minors, College, High School, etc.}] the more relative disparity in talent and ability you should find between the starting pitcher and the reliever.

TW344

And Brian Cashman is firing off OPS of bench players like an AK47.

So true. I watched part of the Yankees/Indians game the other night and the commentators were talking about how Bobby Abreau{sp}'s approach [which is leading the league in pitches per plate apearance] will affect or infect the rest of the Yankee lineup and result in a higher team average of pitches per plate appearance. Since Giambi{sp}, one of the oiginal Moneyball guys, has not had that effect on Shefield, et al, for the years he has been there, I don't see Abreau changing those who are not with the program either. Is that more evidence that Shefield will soon be leaving the Yankees?

TW344

Shefield, just a freak of nature, but you'd never want to teach the coming out of your shoes approach to anyone. And as the fast twitch slows, he won't adapt. With Abreau, the Yankees will certainly burn through starting pitching like no one else.

A clear benefit of PPaB, epecially with younger teams, is the increased potential for wild pitches, passed balls, bounced pitches etc, advancing baserunners at no risk. This general chaos is also increased because high PPaB ratios inevitably mean more pitches are thrown from the stretch.

Obviously, breaking the pitcher down, causing him to give in (to the middle of the zone) is a major payback at every level.

On the flip side of the coin, when you check another teams stats, you can attack off the plate anyone with a bad K/bb ratio, which confirms bad PPaB performance.

Good comments on the subject guys. On our high school teams, we worked on this at length. We had a board in the dugout with desired pitch totals against our offense for each inning. We started with 17 in the 1st and usually 15-17 the rest of the way. We could adjust it by the hitters we had up. We would then record the actuals to compare. The apporach was always to see as many pitches as possible, but hit the first fastball down the middle. If we knew a low in the order guy would not hit well, we would suggest, only suggest, that he take some extra pitches and try to fight off a few behind in the count. We had a consistenly high Obp and seems we always had guys on base. Oppossing coaches often told us they couldn't understand why their pitchers couldn't hit their spots against us. They actually did ok against us, but we often went deep in the counts both ahead and behind. Believe me it didn't always go our way, but I think we taught the players how to work a pitcher, and how to get to the pen early.

CR...
Moneyball says its nearly impossible to teach plate patience in anyone over age 12.

During my son's college career I saw one guy actually improve in that department.

What percentage of your players never "got it"?

HaverDad, I don't think moneyball has been to too many campuses. Just thru defiance and lack of inderstanding, I'd say about 30% never took to the idea of patience and working the pitcher at the high school level. The younger players were much worse in my opinion and also much harder to teach this concept to. They often swung out of fear, habit or just because they told themselves to. I have always preached the situation, and they the why, of how it would benefit the team, and always how it would help the player. As individuals, we often want to know what benefits us.

At the HS level the best pitch you may see is the first one because the pitcher needs to get that pitch over more than you need to hit it.

I also don't like the pitcher at an advantage which he will be if the first pitch is taken for a strike


We want our hitters to be aggressive not passive--there are certain instances where we want them to take a pitch but in general we want them hacking

At an personal performance level, many hitters can only hit effectively inside a much smaller zone than the official zone, and will often be at an indvidual disadvantage when taking a pitcher deep in the count, especially when down-breaking pitches are introduced.

This doesn't mean however that pitch recognition can't be mastered and that, as TW 344 said, hitters can "see as many pitches as possible, but hit the first fastball down the middle."
Thats the difference between hitting and hacking.

At the highest levels there is serious evidence that PPaB is the key OPS component...the prevailing offensive gold standard.

HaverDad:

Actually it was Coachric who said he teaches his hitters that they should "see as many pitches as possible, but hit the first fastball down the middle." But, I wish I had said it because it is great advice to the young hitters out there.

I would only add, always taking the first pitch regardless of location is foolhardy because the smart pitcher/coach will ALWAYS throw that first pitch for a strike if he knows you are taking. Likewise, always "hacking' at the first pitch that is barely in or out of the strike zone that you can't hit for anyting but a popup or a weak groundout is equally foolhardy because, once again, the smart pitcher/coach will ALWAYS throw that first pitch barely at or near the edge of the strike zone because he knows you will be hacking at it and by doing so you will get yourself out.

Mastering pitch recognition as to both location and type is the answer for the serious student of the game as both the PPaB and OPS learning curves continue to evolve.

TW344

I think we should forget all the stats and also keep in mind that HS hitters are not MLB hitters- nowhere near that level---stats are fine but they have different references for each age group as well as the talent on your team

Apologies to Coachric for improper credit....

Stats present plenty of teaching opportunties. Its probably obvious that pitch recognition and patience were important around our house when HaverSon was moving through youth baseball where "there are different references for each age group as well as the talent on your team"

We used stats as a performance benchmark with an eye toward long term improvements, refinement of in-game focus and understanding of the dynamic components of offensive production.

Tom, I have to agree with you that we wouldn't want the pitcher at an advantage. But even good high school pitchers often miss their 1st pitch. We always preached "hit the 1st fastball you like". We did have 1 kid who always swung at the 1st pitch. He never walked, never saw more than a fastball, and he hit very well. We purposely hit him 7th, (he probably wouldn't have hit higher than 5th anyway) and he saw lots of 1st pitch fastballs. As for having a game plan, I live by one. As players progress, they must see more pitches and learn to recognize them, as much as possible for their respective levels of play, in order to have consistent success. As we go deeper into the season, then start playoffs, they will see the best and will see lots of different pitches from assorted angles. This is just part of teaching team ball.
Now, when instructing hitters, a different approach is taken, although pitch recognition is important as the hitter progresses.

Here's my take:

I don't think of it as plat patience as much as I do as "plate discipine."

I teach my kid to hit hittable pitches. Period. Whenever they appear. They are more likely to come on the early pitches in an at bat, on average.

This doesn't necessarily mean swing at strikes. On an 0-0 count, curve ball in the zone, I want him to lay off. Same pitch 0-2, obviously he should swing.

So it depends on the count and situation. Sure, there is team benefit to having all batters try to maximize the starter's pitch count. But I think there is far more benefit from hitting fastsballs in the zone, than in taking hittable pitches in order to get to the relief pitcher.

That said, my kid is in high school. He is very good at judging pitches at his level. I have no idea whether good batters can do the same when looking at major league pitching. So I allow for the distinct possibility that the "take" strategy might be more effective at levels higher than that with which I have experience.

But until it no longer works for him, I'll be telling him to hit the first he sees that he can hit hard.

When the count dictates, his approach will differ.

Rob Kremer:

I don't think you and I are that far apart. I also teach my kid to hit "hittable" pitches when he sees them; regardless of count. Period. However, for you is a hittable pitch one that will be called a strike [that is, any pitch in the "strike zone"] or is it a smaller "hittable zone" where your son knows if he consistently gets that pitch in that location he can bat above .400? I believe the answer to that question is critical to understanding the value of the Pitches per plate appearance statistic.

When my son was a freshman in high school and was "unexpectedly thrown" into a starting position at second base for the varsity facing pitching like he had never faced in junior league baseball, he could only make solid contact with a belt high to knees pitch on the middle/outside half of the plate. So that is the pitch he looked for in each at bat. If he did not get it before he got two strikes he took the pitch, even if it was a strike. Once he had two strikes then his approach was to foul off difficult strikes until he got his pitch or was walked (plate discipline). He led the team in walks that year but he still had more strikeouts than walks.

His sophomore year was pretty much the same as far as what pitch he could hit solid and what ones in the strike zone were not "hittable pitches" for him but he got better at fouling off difficult strikes and knowing when a pitch was going to be a ball and when it was going to be a strike {pitch recognition). He not only led the team in walks and had fewer strikeouts than walks but he set the school season record for base on balls.

In 2006, he worked hard in the off season on pulling inside pitches. His junior year he had significantly less walks IMO because his "hittable pitches" now included belt high to knees both on the inside corner, middle of the plate and outside corner and he was hitting pitches solid and in fair territory with less than two strikes more often. When he got two strkes he still fought off pitches and was exercising both pitch recognition and plate discipline throughout each at bat but he now swung at the middle to low inside strike with less than two strikes; something he had not done in the previous two years. He still led the team in walks and had fewer strikeouts than walks.

The point of all this is that for the real student of hitting as he evolves as a hitter the "hittable pitches" should include more and more pitches in the possible strike zone as he works on his weaknesses and gains confidence by turning them into strengths while continuing to improve on pitch recognition and plate discipline with correspondingly less and less swings at pitches outside the strike zone [balls].

So my answer to my own question is, son, don't swing at any pitch you can't hit solid enough to get a hit at least four out of every ten times you make contact until you have two strikes. Then, with two strikes, don't swing at balls, fight off strikes you can't put in play and work to either put a pitch in play or get a base on balls.

So, I hope we are on more or less the same page here Rob Kremer regading the advice we give our sons. What do you say?

TW344

TW344's approach will prove especially strong when his son starts to hit with wood.

NOTE: Anyone who ever saw Ted William's book (cover) knows how low batting average's can go when swinging at (bad) pitches that are still in the strike zone.

TW:
Oh, yes I think we are entirely on the same page. "hittable pitch" and "strike" are not necessarily the same thing. The location of pitches my kid will swing at depends on the count.

0-0, 1-0, 2-0, 3-0. 3-1: wheelhouse only. A pitch he can pull or drive into the gaps.

0-1, 1-1, 2-1: any pitch he can hit for a base hit. That doesn't mean any strike - he'll take good curveballs in the zone for strike 2, and marginal fastballs. (He's a lefty and a good oppo hitter so he will look for decent outside pitches he can slap into left field.)

0-2, 1-2, 2-2, 3-2: Spoil anything close if possible. Look for hanging curve or other mistake, and take anything out of the zone.

He's very disciplined at the plate, so he doesn't swing at a lot of balls. In little league we had a cage batting practice drill that the kids really loved, which really helps develop discipline. The kids could stay up to bat as long as they didn't swing at a ball or take a strike. Swing and miss at a strike - stay at bat. Swing and hit a ball - out.

The kids would compete to see who could stay in for the most pitches. They loved it, and it really helped them understand the strike zone.

HaverDad:

I like this stat - also, it's younger brother, #P/IP - gives an indication of a kid throwing strikes AND getting guys out. On a BAD day, a pitcher could throw nothing but strikes, but all of them be rockets the other way!!

My guy is this type of pitcher; seen him many a time have an inning where he faced 5 guys, 2 hits and threw less than 10 pitches. I would rather see that any day [well, OK, MOST days]than a 1-2-3 inning where he threw 18 pitches.

One thing that I have found hard for kids to understand is that by being aggressive with a fastball that catches too much of the plate, you can make a pitcher increase his pitch count. Once they buy in they see that when a pitcher is afraid to throw the first pitch over to get ahead, they begin to nible. Once you try to nible to get ahead, you get your pitch count up in a hurry, fall behind, and end up making a mistake pitch. When we stick to our game plan we have had good success getting starters out of the game.

hsbaseballcoach:

Excellent point. When I was a young high school player, I had a coach that wanted his lead-off hitter [me] to take pitches until the pitcher threw a strike. I always felt like I was starting out behind becuase even if I had a 2-0 count, I had to take the next pitch even if it was grooved. When I got to college, I had a coach that wanted his leadoff hitter to be aggressive with that first pitch of the game if it was a hittable strike. I felt much better about that first at bat and would watch the pitcher closer in warm-up because I knew I could swing at the first pitch and not have a coach down my back.

It all goes back to plate discipline, doesn't it? Know what pitch locations you can hit well and those "strikes" you don't hit so well and you shold be OK. Hitter, know thyself.

TW344