Pitching Advice - Youth

Without seeing the kid, first a question and then just some basic basics...

Is he still a three or four finger grip kid (many kids that age with small hands are) or has he progressed to two?  The answer could send you different directions.  Assuming two...

First, address awareness..

Explain proper 4-seam grip and resulting spin, the necessity and reason and the effects.  Make sure he can recognize FB spin vs CB/slider spin.  

Explain the correlation that a player would struggle to have success at the HS level without proper 4-seam spin.

Then address the process...

Start working on the thought process of getting straight thru the middle of the back of the ball at extended release, then finishing down and across.

Do the same, this time with more pressure on the index finger.  

Check the finish to assure it is with the palm facing the knee/leg.

Do towel drills with same finish focus.

Our pitching coach uses a football to emphasize proper pronation.   I've had mixed results with that method.  IMO, if the player is getting under the ball, it can actually make it worse.  He swears by it and I know others use that technique as well.

Sometimes, at that age, it's still just an age/strength/ size of hand thing.  Still good to get them on the right path.

Sounds like you are describing throwing around the ball - rather than through the ball as Cabbage mentions. Maybe throwing around the elbow would be a better way to say it...  In other words, as he is accelerating the ball forward he is also moving it away from the body.  That will lead to incorrect spin that will cause the ball to tail away from the target - and have less velocity.

Now, this is a technique you will see infielders use for quick - short throws, but not typically for longer throws. It definitely isn't a throwing style you would want to use as a pitcher.

With my 11 year old (2024 right?), I've started working with him on the "Wasserman water bottle" drill.  He too was an off to the side thrower.  Now when he actually focuses on throwing properly (it takes a long time to overcome ingrained habits), he gets a nice true spin.  It looks a little unnatural and herky-jerky for him right now, but it gets a little better every week.  When he does manage to do the motion correctly, it produces a nice, hard accurate throw.  It's a work in progress...

One of the things I would make sure any instructor addresses is the issue I mentioned in the first paragraph.  Arm strength is one of the things a coach will notice first in any tryout.  The kid with hands of stone but a cannon arm draws more attention than the kid with a good glove who has to launch rainbows to first.

Get Austin wassermans book high level throwing. Learning to throw is much more important than learning to pitch.

Dominik85 posted:

Get Austin wassermans book high level throwing. Learning to throw is much more important than learning to pitch.

Believer in the towel drill to get kids on top of the ball.  Kids mimic what they see.  Needs to throw with someone who has a good throwing motion.

Thanks for all the advice.  We have talked a good bit about staying behind the ball, but I think the problem might be that he is trying to use a two finger grip and seems to lose focus on mechanics once warm up tossing is over - once he starts throwing in practice, I think he is trying to muscle the ball and his form falls apart.  I keep telling him he is losing 20-30% of his power by coming off the side (he has a nice solid throw when he stays behind).

I think I will mark up another ball with a black line going around the ball.  So far, that is the best drill I have seen that allows him to see the spin.  As for the towel drill, I am not as concerned with getting on top of the ball as I am staying behind the ball.  He seems to get on top of the ball to a degree but then simply bleeds off and around (under?) the ball.  I'd be happy with a lower release point assuming he stays behind.  Wish I had decent video to post - hopefully I can borrow my wife's phone soon a get some decent footage.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

... He seems to get on top of the ball to a degree but then simply bleeds off and around (under?) the ball.  I'd be happy with a lower release point assuming he stays behind.  

Off the top of my head, you could probably tell him to focus on not letting his thumb get pointed up or out away from the body at any point. Keep it down or in.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Thanks for all the advice.  We have talked a good bit about staying behind the ball, but I think the problem might be that he is trying to use a two finger grip and seems to lose focus on mechanics once warm up tossing is over - once he starts throwing in practice, I think he is trying to muscle the ball and his form falls apart.  I keep telling him he is losing 20-30% of his power by coming off the side (he has a nice solid throw when he stays behind).

I think I will mark up another ball with a black line going around the ball.  So far, that is the best drill I have seen that allows him to see the spin.  As for the towel drill, I am not as concerned with getting on top of the ball as I am staying behind the ball.  He seems to get on top of the ball to a degree but then simply bleeds off and around (under?) the ball.  I'd be happy with a lower release point assuming he stays behind.  Wish I had decent video to post - hopefully I can borrow my wife's phone soon a get some decent footage.

If the towel drill is used properly, and he is actually following through with the throw, wouldn't this eliminate the issue?

Both of you get on one knee about 5-6 ft apart. With 2 or 4 seam grip and throwing elbow resting on glove hand, using the flick of wrist to push the ball to each other while throwing arm remains perpendicular to ground and does not move. Emphasize as others have mentioned staying behind and pushing ball to each other.

Gmnk posted:

Both of you get on one knee about 5-6 ft apart. With 2 or 4 seam grip and throwing elbow resting on glove hand, using the flick of wrist to push the ball to each other while throwing arm remains perpendicular to ground and does not move. Emphasize as others have mentioned staying behind and pushing ball to each other.

 

 

I hate to come across as confrontational, but this is a drill that has little value.  It teaches the player to throw in an unnatural manner from an unnatural position.  Proper rotation comes from proper follow through, rather than any flicking of the wrist.

The mechanics need to start at the beginning - not at the end. You are teaching the body that it wants to get to the "wrist flick" position and stop there to release the ball. This leads to players having poor follow through and little velocity - basically they become dart throwers. (nice rotation though)

I will say when I first started coaching I used the wrist drill myself.  It took a couple of years before I came across a former pro who showed me why I shouldn't be teaching kids using that drill. It's seems like it teaches what you want - but it sets up issues down the road.

Not confrontational at all...The only thought I had in recommending this is that the kid should be able to see his fingers behind the ball upon release since OP said... " He seems to not be able keep his fingers behind the ball", then he is pronating upon finish.

As far using this to teach throwing and follow through, I've only used it as a warmup wrist routine. And having a looser wrist in throwing IMO is no different than being "loose" while actually throwing a ball. Its just a short drill  of many. It may have no usefulness and I've never searched if it does or not.

I equate it as just a drill similar to if I stand with legs shoulder wide apart and begin throwing short distance concentrating on glove side mechanics all the while removing ones lower half from the action. Wont throw like this at almost any situation but just another warmup type drill that isolates a bodypart and or movement.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Have a younger "pitcher" (2024) that I knew had some issues and saw some rough video the other day.  He seems to not be able keep his fingers behind the ball, rather they bleed off on the outside of the ball (sort of like he is trying to throw a curveball) and then he rotates the hand/arm back the other way (in need of proper vocabulary).  After seeing the video I feel the need to get this corrected, but wanted some input and advice on the front end so I can better gauge what the "instructor" says might be the issue and what drills might help.  High school tryouts are only about 2 years out (freshman team usually takes a few 8th graders) so I figured the question was fair game for this board.

He throws in the field much the same way he pitches so I really just want to correct the motion and not really worried about actual pitching.  He is not a big kid, so if he ever wants to get a shot at shortstop, he is going to have to get everything out of his throws.  Right now he has a 2B arm but not a 2B bat.

Excellent you're attending to this right now; don't throw off the mound - keep the focus on flat ground until corrected.  Check out the link below; it's a simple device that encourages the correct arm angles for throwing. This connector ball helped refine my sons throwing motion.  He now has greater consistency, accuracy, strength, and seems to throw with less effort.  We learned about it from a throwing "guru" type near us...

Check it out: https://www.oatesspecialties.com/connection-ball-12

Just a thought...

Gmnk posted:

Not confrontational at all...The only thought I had in recommending this is that the kid should be able to see his fingers behind the ball upon release since OP said... " He seems to not be able keep his fingers behind the ball", then he is pronating upon finish.

As far using this to teach throwing and follow through, I've only used it as a warmup wrist routine. And having a looser wrist in throwing IMO is no different than being "loose" while actually throwing a ball. Its just a short drill  of many. It may have no usefulness and I've never searched if it does or not.

I equate it as just a drill similar to if I stand with legs shoulder wide apart and begin throwing short distance concentrating on glove side mechanics all the while removing ones lower half from the action. Wont throw like this at almost any situation but just another warmup type drill that isolates a bodypart and or movement.

 

I'm thinking this drill might be good.  The kid loves to be coached and tries to execute anything he is told - but he just cannot seem to "feel" his mechanics once he goes 100%.  I think some "wrist flick" will at least get him understanding the need to stay behind - then perhaps some tossing at 50% where he continues to focus (maybe use the marked up ball here for visual feedback).  Maybe I should keep him away from pitching for awhile as he is probably not going to pitch 75% while he works through this.  That said, throwing off the mound is very intentional (as opposed to fielding grounders and throwing out runners at speed) and therefore I would think he could force himself to adapt.

Thanks again for everyone's input.  This should help the cause.

First off, this is extremely common at this age. In fact, if he were to throw with perfect rotation on the ball he would be the exception rather than the rule. From my experience in trying almost everything in the book to correct this flaw & trend in the right direction there were several things that seemed to help.

#1: Make sure the thumb is in the correct position directly underneath the ball & not up on the side.

#2: Stress that when taking the ball out of the glove that the fingers are on top & he is not cupping it as he removes the ball from the glove.

#3: Stress keeping his head in line with the target upon release & not tugging it laterally. This causes him to get "around" it instead of through it.

Patience & only work on 1 adjustment at a time. It will be a process & with added strength & maturity the issue is almost always self correcting when they are able to pronate upon release. These above keys will help accelerate the process & serve well moving forward. 

In addition, the language you use for instruction is critical at this age. Terms & phrases I have found to occasionally click were those such as.

For keeping in line upon release. "Chin to the glove." " Through the glove." " Step to the target."

For proper arm path when taking it out of the glove: " Down & back & up." " Fingers on top."

Keep it very simple & always use a positive message on what you want to see vs an instruction telling him what "not to do." Terms such as "stop flying open" "Don't get around it" "Quit tugging your head," etc are poison & only stress a negative.

Steve A - thanks for the advice.  I particularly like the suggestion about keeping the thumb underneath the ball.  Going to try that as soon as it stops raining and see if it helps.