Pitching All about speed in HighSchool

The 90 mph guys are fun to watch in HS, but no, I don't agree that its all about speed in HS.

Some of the most successful recent HS pitchers in our area could not reach 90...more typically in the low, sometimes mid 80s. But they had great command of at least 2 pitches and knew how and when to use them.

Pitching beyond HS sometimes requires more speed...but not necessarily. I've seen a number of very successful D1 college pitchers who threw in the mid 80s.

So again, I don't agree its all about speed in HS.

jrenda,

A couple things IMO.

You will have to get used to the Speed Fascination thing. With the explosion of showcases and elite travel teams etc... - it is what catches today's eyes. It doesnt have to be right.

I have watched so many hard throwers the last several years just puke the ball up. Excuse the language - but it just isnt impressive. Good hitters beat the **** out of THROWERS in just about every case.

It is absolutely fantastic if you are a PITCHER and can throw with great velocity. This is why the great ones in MLB - and the great prospects - get the big bucks.

Lastly - Pitchers are supposed to get people out. Many coaches have forgotten this. The pitchers job is to get people out - not break the sound barrier.

My advice to you would be to learn as much as you can about the art of pitching - and work on your velocity as well. But velocity alone is a one way ticket to palookaville - especially when you start playing against top notch competition.

Remember - your job is to get people out.

Good luck.

Radar gun readings do not win baseball games. Excellent pitching does.

Work diligently on all of those things that enable you to throw strikes consistently with several pitches. If you can do that, you will collect wins and the statistics that go with them. Ultimately, those are the "readings" that get you "promoted" in baseball.

Best of luck to you!

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Actually agree with everything said here...almost...Have said this before and gotten in trouble and will say this again...And get in more trouble. . Looking at the thing from non-blue-chip perspective...

IMO....No high school coach that I am aware of will fail to use and value a pitcher who gets players out no matter what his velocity.

On the other hand...IMO...College recruiters really value velocity and choose it. IMO it looks like this in order...

1. Pitchers with velocity
2. Velocity alone
3. Pitchers

IMO....I also still belive that there are unwritten, unspoken qualifying velocities. Below a certain level you simply will not be considered even if you can get kids out.

While I agree that there are successful mid 80's DI pitchers, few recruiters have to guts to recruit them.

Am aware of a high school pitcher who went somehing like 18-3 as a varsity pitcher in 4 years. 6-1 as a junior and 7-1 as a senior. His velocity was mid 80's had a wicked curveball, nice change and size. Did all the requisit showcases. Only once did anyone mention or recruit him as a pitcher, and that was a DII ( he had qualifying velocity for them).

Playing at DI now and AFTER he is in, now they see him as a pitcher.

Know of a player who hits mid eighties, simply gets kids out EVERYWHERE he showcases, Area Code try outs, college showcase camps, travel team, and on and on. S.O...S.O....S.O....High grades, great kid, Can't get a sniff from the DI's.

While there are certainly a great many variables to recruiting a college pitcher IMO velocity is the most important.

Yeah i think everyones right it just messed up how a scout will barley look at u if u cant throw hard...my coach will still usually give me a chance but i bet if a kid came along and threw harder them me but didnt have command he might take my starting spot...**** what has pitching become

Then if you do throw in the 90's the first thing they do at college or in the pro's is teach you how to pitch at 90% so you can find the plate. Keep at it. Eventually getting people out is what is important. Somebody can always use a pitcher who can get people out. 27 outs per game. Nobody cares how. IMO the radar gun is overused and misused. It makes scouts out of people who have no conception of what it takes to get hitters out. Most hitters will tell you a good changeup pitcher is the toughest thing to hit. Good luck and keep getting them out.

I agree with justbaseball…and Prepster...as usual! Speed is only one ingredient of a pitch. The pitch has many ingredients including location, movement, deception, and speed. Like justbaseball says, the talent of the batter is also a big factor in how effective a pitch (or a pitcher) is. For instance, in high school an 86 mph fast ball high in the strike zone might “whiff” the normal batter but at the D-1 level it will clear the bases. I’m not an expert on pitching...I don’t know why I’m giving my two cents. Maybe it’s because my son’s a catcher.... Kinda reminds me of when Tim McCarver walked to the mound to talk to Bob Gibson about his pitching. Gibson told him: “The only thing you know about pitching is you can’t hit it!”
Fungo

Observer,
You are right, you are in trouble again

I'll state my order and raise you two.
1. coachibility
2.variety of pitches
3. velocity
4.command
5.competitiveness
There are pitchers in major D1 programs that use mid 80 fastballs, it's devastating to the hitters that are used to seeing the 90+ fastballs. They don't always get the win, but they sure do make the other team struggle. They are there because they had something the coach was looking for in a player and it wasn't just for his velocity.
JMO

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The strange thing is that I agree! With all the posts AND with the value of ALL the other factors mentioned....

The part I have trouble with is the reality of what is actually happening in front of me on a daily basis on the recruiting trail vs. what we all know to be true.

We can all agree til the cows come in that the other factors are very critical...but my heart goes out to the pitchers who I see on a weekly basis who keep getting batters out, and keep getting told that velocity isn't the most important factor and then get ignored while they watches 90 MPH kids who can find the plate and then get lit up and still get trips and offers.

Simply put, without velocity to a certain qualifying level all the other factors are moot. IF one reaches the correct qualifying velocity then spped is no longer a factor, it is the other factors that seperate as everyone has reached that qualifying velocity.

Until I see solid college offers regularly going to kids who are simply good pitchers, good kids, with good grades, good command, good compettiveness AND questionable velocity. I am obligated to offer a second viewpoint...with respect, of course.

Oh...and jrenda...you just keep getting batters out, your high school coach will love you. Your velocity will continue to increase as you mature and train. Big guys often find their maturity late, mine did/are. So be patient.

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Good pitcher's know the difference between throwing and pitching.

Great velocity may blow up scouts, and college coach's skirts, but without location and movement it is simply throwing the ball to homeplate as though an infielder was on the mound and playing high speed catch with the catcher

Throwers are a dime a dozen, easy to hit because they usuall put the ball right in the wheelhouse, and pose no problem for good batters.

I'll tell you something else, I'm so tired of listening to this baloney about velocity, when all the pitching manuals and books written about pitching state that the best, most efficient pitchers are those the have command and control of location first, movement second and yes, speed last.

The conclusion I've come to is that the people who are making decisions about which pitchers to take in the draft or to the D-1 levels don't know the ar*ss-from-a-hole-in-the-ground.

Every pitching book says the ability to hit your spots is more important than whether you can throw outside of your control range.

And who writes these books are the guys who use to be the flame throwers who got their ar*ss handed to them and got released, only to find out to late that pitcheing is about command and control using location, movement and yes, varying speeds, not a constant 92-93 fastball.

Last night I just watched the pitcher of the SF Giants - Tompko throw every pitch at 95-96 and get his ar*ss kicked...no changeup, no curveball, no changes in velocity or movement. He sucked. I wonder where he learned how to pitch it was ugly.

If I'm in trouble on this one, it needed to be said.

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I feel your pain.

Good pitching is about getting batters out. And getting batters out is about keeping them off balance. Velocity is only one of the ways to do that.

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as the DAD of a hitter allow me to offer this---my son hated the HS pitcher with the 75 to 80 mile an hour fastball--it screwed up his timing something fierce--he always preferred the pitcher with the high velocity who was a thrower and not a pitcher--his motto--"sit on his fastball, he has nothing else to worry about!"

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TR..Think you'll enjoy this...

Talked to a high end DI college coach last summer who had a fascinating observation....

Hitters struggle with pitchers who are over bat speed or under bat speed. The normal college Bat speed being somewhere between 84 and 87 MPH. Under that hitters struggle with timing, over that they are trying to catch up. In that range hitters at a collegiate level are simply deadly. He said that a number of his pitchers cannot get consistently over that speed but if they tstay slower they disrupt hitters better. Says he has a heck of a time selling them the reality that that less speed is often more effective. Says they all have velocity and "speed guns" on the brain having been drilled with that concept for their whole careers!!

Observer44

Great observation on the coaches part

Good hitters want more speed--the harder the pitcher throws the quicker the ball goes out

Good discussion, forgot to add something.
My son was the #1 starter on his HS team. Yes, he had more than adequate HS velocity and a confusing mix of pitches and change up. The #2 starter was 5'9" and a low 80's FB. After trying to adjust to a 90+, now in the 5th,6th, inning the hitters were totally confused!
Observer,
I know you agree
One other point. Some of these pitchers you speak about who don't get offers. To us, they may have the stuff, to a college recruiter, they may not. They may see too many flaws that need correcting, they don't have time to do that. There are lots and lots of 90 HS pitchers that lack control, so that is not on the top of my list
As my son told his dad, any good college hitter can hit the 90+ fastball, and if not placed in the right position, you're a gonner. Lots of those guys who just place it down the middle won't be effective at the top D1 level, but make effective pitchers at smaller conference D1 and D2,D3 schools.
My husband would always ask the recruiters the same question and always got the same answer. Why do you think my son will be good for your program? Answer was he was a smart pitcher, competitiveness, never once mentioned his FB, change up, curve.

This topic comes up several times a year.

All scouts and college recruiters are aware of the value of command, deception, movement, quality breaking balls, etc.

"Observer" has this figured out!

First of all, one has to differenciate winning games from individual potential (winning games at the next level and even the very highest level)

Scouts and college recruiters were using radar guns long before showcases became popular. These expensive pieces of equipment that are lugged along to games have a purpose. The guns are not used to grade command, movement or mechanics... the eyes are used for that!

The scout/recruiter also records the speed of breaking balls and changeups. So often, velocity is only mentioned here regarding the fast ball. But, the velocity of other pitches (especially curve balls and sliders) are important. It's very obvious when you see low 80s curve balls or upper 80s sliders. There aren't many low 80s fastballs better than a good low 80s curve ball!

Not to disagree with the value others have stated as being important because the entire package is most important. Personally, my favorite trait in a pitcher is "lack of fear".

Let's please not disregard the value of Velocity. Especially the ABILITY to THROW with velocity! We all know the ability to PITCH effectively with good velocity is #1. Yes, there are a few exceptions we could all mention.

Georgia Tech had a pitcher drafted last year. He actually walked more hitters per inning than anyone in DI baseball. He did not have good command, he had problems winning games and it hurt him in the draft. He was the first pick of the 3rd round and signed for $500,000. Why??? Because he could throw in the upper 90s!

Time will tell if the club that signed him was right or wrong. Every player has some risk involved.

If a hitter is given his choice of who he wants to face in a game winning situation, who would he prefer to face?... The pitcher with a good 98 mph fastball and good 90 mph slider or the pitcher with a good low 80s fastball and a good 67 mph curve ball? Afterall, they're both far from the average velocity.

Once again, this is not mentioned to argue the value of the entire package of a pitcher. I just don't understand it when people actually think velocity is less important than what it is.

There is a reason all those scouts carry around those radar guns. Whenever, we talk to scouting directors, crosscheckers, area scouts or college recruiters about a pitcher... guess what the very first question is, nearly all the time?

Please don't discount the value of velocity. No it's not the only thing, but it ranks very very high in importance.

Ramrod you say

quote:

The conclusion I've come to is that the people who are making decisions about which pitchers to take in the draft or to the D-1 levels don't know the ar*ss-from-a-hole-in-the-ground.

Ramrod, You have said a mouth full there!

You have just stated that every major league scout and Division I coach doesn't know their ar*ss-from-a-hole-in-the-ground. Let's get back to the high maintenance thread and perhaps retake what you called the test!

Please show more respect for the game!

PG

At least someone else sees RAMROD (PIC) as I do.

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TR, TPW, Ramrod, PG...

This is a good thread...Reality as seen from a variety of standpoints, solid logical discussion, examples, passion...this thread does come up regularly but I tend think that it refines itself getting better and better..like fine California wine!

Ramrod,

Per your perspective, the following people know nothing about the game.

High School coaches
Divison 1 coaches
MLB scouts.

Question - Is there anyone that does know something about the game?

PG,
Good post. Being one in the business, no one can argue your the points that yu bring up You , I imagine have seen it all.
And yes we all talk about the FB and your mentioning of how velocity of other pitches is important. We tend to forget that.

Does this mean than that the 90+ pitcher who only has the FB to rely on is or is not as attractive as the high 80's who has a variety of pitches, changes speed well, etc. I think that is where the confusion lies in the discussion, where it is all about velocity. The poster wants to use his variety of pitches but the coach wants the velocity. Becomes very confusing for the pitcher.

observer,

Good points - especially about the wine Silver Oak in the Napa Valley is my favorite.

Regarding the original topic.

No, it is NOT "ALL" about speed.

Jrenda,

Most pitchers in high school don't have three quality pitches (at any velocity). It is very hard to master 3 pitches, let alone throwing even more than 3 pitches from different arm angles.

Most Major League starting pitchers will have three quality pitches. Some Major League pitchers don't have three pitches. (They are called relievers). Not many change arm angles!

Is there any chance that your coach could possibly know more than you do?

Best of luck

Jrenda : Whether you know it or not you have hit the 'mother lode' with all of these fine responses. The collective 'brain trust'(I say that with much admiration) has nailed this one to the wall for you.

My two cents... gravitate towards the team,or more importantly the coach,that recognizes and appreciates your effectiveness as a pitcher. As the others have discussed,a pitcher's effectiveness is their ability to create 'outs'. As you know, 'outs' come in all different shapes and sizes! What GOOD coach would not like a pitcher that can rack up those 'outs'? FIND THAT COACH!

As observer44 said...be patient for the reasons he mentioned. You have shown good sense in bringing your concern to this site. This indicates to me that you are are as capaable mentally to handle the task of pitching as you obviously are physically. You're working on your game and that's very good. Tigerpawmom's son has this same quality and his coach knows and appreciates it. Now that's a nice fit! One that you should work towards. Keep soaking up the knowledge on this site and keep us posted.

Fungo : You are aware of Molly McKesson at Christian Bros. Univ. For her level,D2, she is a fine example of an effective pitcher. By the way you mentioned earlier that you are not a pitching expert but you're related to one... your son ,the catcher!

Command at the level you are at gives you success.

Velocity brings you to the next level.

In the pro's, the more velocity the more mistakes you're "allowed" to make without the hitter hitting a homerun, but you leave it over the middle without mixing it up and eventually the hitter will get to you.

tbird : Very fine initial post. Welcome aboard!

in high school, i want a pitcher who number 1 can throw strikes. my opinion it goes.... location, movement, velocity. i do think that in college recruiters it goes velocity, movemnen, location. they always want to know what the UPside is.

its

simple answer--RAMROD(PIC) is the one who knows it all

TPM asks

quote:

Does this mean than that the 90+ pitcher who only has the FB to rely on is or is not as attractive as the high 80's who has a variety of pitches, changes speed well, etc. I think that is where the confusion lies in the discussion, where it is all about velocity. The poster wants to use his variety of pitches but the coach wants the velocity. Becomes very confusing for the pitcher.

There are others who could answer this question better. My opinion is... from one scout to another you might get a different opinion.

There are several things that could sway a scouts opinion one way or the other. However, for the most part, if a pitcher has NOTHING more than a 90 mph fastball, he's a draft and follow candidate, at best, in my mind.

If I'm a college coach, I would always prefer the high 80s guy who can pitch. In most cases I would also prefer that pitcher for pro ball. Of course, there are many other factors (body, maturity, arm action, etc) that would enter the equation.

Pro - more about projection (future)
College - more about present (now)

I don't think any pitcher should waste his time being confused by this process. With in reason, my philosophy and advice has always been (even to my own kids) Play it out like the coach is always right! Any other way, is a recipe for disaster! Besides I also believe in the old saying... The cream will rise to the top.

Unless the coach is doing something that puts the pitcher or player in danger... He's in charge and gets total respect! The other way can lead to bad labels being attached. The opposite of what TPM's favorite trait is. And it is a very important trait.

PGStaff | TRhit | itsinthegame

Let's see, the current philosphy of the radar gun (velocity) over substance has produced scouts, college coaches, hs coaches, and MLB managers, who are in someway influential in the pool of pitchers selected every year for the MLB.

Question, what is their record overall in producing the pitcher's like Spahn, Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Drysdale, Hershisher etal?

We now have may be a half a dozen pitcher's in the MLB that I would say are of that All-Star caliber.

I think there record of achievement is dismal.

..and accusing me of being a HM parent won't change their dismal record.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:

Question, what is their record overall in producing the pitcher's like Spahn, Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Drysdale, Hershisher etal?

We now have may be a half a dozen pitcher's in the MLB that I would say are of that All-Star caliber.

Question, without mentioning the steroids issue,please.
Hitters are in better physical shape than they ere years ago. The game has changed.
Would these pitchers today be true All Stars if they had to face the hittrs of today's game?
Curious as to all of your opinions.

PG,
Thanks for the answer.

Ramrod,

You addressed your response to others, as well as me.

My question was specific: Who in your opinion knows anything about the game?

Additionally - I have not been involved in the HM discussion - so your HM comment shouldnt be addressed to me.

Lastly - I think your comment concerning the number of current All-Star pitchers in MLB is way off base.

Observer44 made a good point about 84 to 87 in college being the comfort zone for hitters. The reason is that most college pitchers throw between 84 and 87. So why are we seeing people insisting that a pitcher has to throw 90 mph to be recruited by a D1?

We had a local player who was a very successful HS pitcher who threw 84 to 87 according to a showcase who was signed by a good D1. He's fairly tall and is projectable but did not light up the guns.

PGstaff: Your favorite trait in a pitcher 'lack of fear' is nearly the same quality that I have always admired in a pitcher and that is 'confidence'.

They're very similar. My son,who is a confident pitcher, when asked if he is ever fearful, responds that yes he does get fearful sometimes. The key is he doesn't display that fear. You can't see it. That's a good asset to have.

Another quality to be admired in a pitcher, that has not been mentioned here yet, is the ability of a pitcher to be involved defensively after the pitch has been deliversd. Their 'defensive gems' always turn up on the highlight films.

The other day, a college called and asked about my Senior who was 10-2 last year. The first question was velocity related. I asked if he wanted a thrower or pitcher. It's that simple. We teach 4 pitches and expect to locate all 4. Thus our kid's past success. However, trying to produce pitchers is VERY HARD!

quote:

Question, what is their record overall in producing the pitcher's like Spahn, Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Drysdale, Hershisher etal?

We now have may be a half a dozen pitcher's in the MLB that I would say are of that All-Star caliber.

I think there record of achievement is dismal.

Ramrod,

That is a great list of former pitchers. You mentioned six (6) of them and they are all great!

Then you go on to say "We now have may be a half a dozen pitcher's in the MLB that I would say are of that All-Star caliber"

Six or half a dozen... Take your pick

Ramrod,

I think you just want to argue. Please understand, if that’s the case, let me know, so I can go do something else.

In the meantime, lets compare the 6 you listed to current pitchers, for debate purposes

Most Wins * ACTIVE PITCHERS
Spahn - 363
* Clemens - 340
* Maddux – 318
* Glavine – 275
Gibson – 251
* Johnson – 262
Marichal – 243
* Wells – 226
* Mussina – 224
* Brown – 211
Drysdale – 209
Hershiser – 204
* Martinez - 197
* Smoltz - 177 and 154 saves
Koufax 165


Most Strikeouts (in order) *ACTIVE PITCHERS
* Clemens
* Johnson
Gibson
* Maddux
* Schilling
* Cone
* Martinez
Spahn
Drysdale
* Smoltz
Koufax
* Brown
Marichal
* Mussina
* Glavine
* Wells
Hershiser

Sorry... David Cone is no longer active!

quote:

There is a reason all those scouts carry around those radar guns. Whenever, we talk to scouting directors, crosscheckers, area scouts or college recruiters about a pitcher... guess what the very first question is, nearly all the time?

Please don't discount the value of velocity. No it's not the only thing, but it ranks very very high in importance.

PG Staff -

Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. Unfortunately, warranted or not, not everyone will get their "shot". No matter how many outs they get.

FrankF : Amen!

CoachB25 : Considering all of the variables involved in pitching it is no surprise that teaching and producing a good pitcher is so difficult. Judging from the success that you have had in this regard it is no wonder that you are so satisfied. You've earned your rewards!

Jrenda,
Going back to your original question. You have good size and can be effective the way you like to pitch. However, your coach may be looking at your longer term development and part of your longer term development is building your fastball up to it's full potential.

Many pitchers have fallen into the trap of trading away their future for near term success. The most vivid example is that of the little leaguer who falls in love with the curve ball and never develops a good fastball.

Pitchers need to develop their fastball so that when they take some speed off it in order to get the best command possible it is still a fast ball.

Perhaps your coach thinks you have more potential than you realize.