My son & a pitcher on his hs team are a good example of how system works. Both are lefties.
My son was 82-84 tops as junior & at showcases before senior year but always very effective with good control/curve/change. He always has had great #'s (k's/bb ratio & era). Also was projectable as he was very skinny (put on 28 pounds this summer though thru lifting & heavy eating).
He was recruited by 25 or so d1's including 3 from the Big 12 & another top 25 down south. He was as dominant as any pitcher in Il other than a flame-thrower who went at #48 but he had very little mlb interest as he was only around 83-86 senior year.
His friend was 83-89 but rarely touched over 87. He did show he could hit the upper # sometimes though. He wasn't effective at all & by end of season was a #3 who couldn't get past the 3rd or 4th inning against any team. He struck out very few batters and nearly set a school record for hits & runs allowed.
This kid had no interest from big-time schools and little from mid-majors. He was drafted in the 25th round though. I had tons of people ask me how this happened & they couldn't understand you need a minimum velo for pro looks - effectiveness is secondary to tools.
The point is colleges & mlb are usually looking for different things - this makes sense to me but like anything I'm sure there are exceptions with some college coaches/mlb scouts.
I think & hope there is always room in college for kids who can simply get outs.
denisr400 : I agree wholeheartedly with your last line.
Re: Mike... I think he was selected 47th rather than 48th. I know...picky,picky,picky
Re: Mike... I think he was selected 47th rather than 48th. I know...picky,picky,picky
To All
Since there are so many post addressed to me I will try to answer as best I can for my assertion.
Everyone in BB I know will stipulate that pitching and defense wins championships.
Where can I start. Lets' start with the players who will be MLB projects off of the Olympic team and USA Baseball. What's killing us with the Olympic team lack of pitching. We can't seem to win anymore using the (velocity first) philosophy against the lowliest teams in the world.
Then let's look at the results of what we now have versus what we were used to seeing from MLB level pitchers.
Here I will address PGStaff's list of names. If you consider the level of "knowledge we now have about mechanics and PT regimen's versus that which was available, let's say to Juan Marichal you win on that account hands down. But then you look at Complete Games (CG)'s and it tells a different story.
Now we have starting pitcher's that can't get out of the 5th inning, 7th if you're lucky, and the philosophy feeds the new paradigm, which is throw arms at the batters with the same speed of 92-95. When the pitcher is done in two innings bring in the next one. And then finish with a closer that throws at 97-98, who most of the time is nursing a sore arm or some other injury to his body from overthrowing, and you have modern baseball. It's cr*ap.
That 's not pitching...that's throwing and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Pitching based upon the "new" philosophy allows the coaches to concentrate on "calling" pitches not teaching how to pitch. It has allowed coaching to to drop from a true level of understanding of the pitching profession to one of a cursory requirement of understanding the "art of pitching"
Who suffers the most from this farce...the fan. He isn't getting the game of his father's. My son very seldom has seen a pitcher of the stature of a Koufax, or the caliber of Spahn. They were things of beauty out there on the mound.
Now a guy lifts his leg, and throws, no symmetry, fluidity, or beauty in the form. It's just grunt, brute force.
Frank F says it is what it is and I agree, but it isn't the baseball that I grew up with when pitchers threw CG's and knew how to use three or four pitches with a variety of speeds to get batters out.
PGStaff can site that there are pitchers who could compete with "true" pitchers of the past, but when one considers the pool of talent and the difference in demographics ( # of people) in the United States now as there was many years ago when there were far fewer, one can see that the current level of coaches, scouts, managers, etc., are not doing the job.
In my opinion there are only a few pitchers on that list that can carry a candle to the pitchers I listed and those are Clemens and Johnson, Maddux, etc. The rest are journeymen but not All-Stars.
Since there are so many post addressed to me I will try to answer as best I can for my assertion.
Everyone in BB I know will stipulate that pitching and defense wins championships.
Where can I start. Lets' start with the players who will be MLB projects off of the Olympic team and USA Baseball. What's killing us with the Olympic team lack of pitching. We can't seem to win anymore using the (velocity first) philosophy against the lowliest teams in the world.
Then let's look at the results of what we now have versus what we were used to seeing from MLB level pitchers.
Here I will address PGStaff's list of names. If you consider the level of "knowledge we now have about mechanics and PT regimen's versus that which was available, let's say to Juan Marichal you win on that account hands down. But then you look at Complete Games (CG)'s and it tells a different story.
Now we have starting pitcher's that can't get out of the 5th inning, 7th if you're lucky, and the philosophy feeds the new paradigm, which is throw arms at the batters with the same speed of 92-95. When the pitcher is done in two innings bring in the next one. And then finish with a closer that throws at 97-98, who most of the time is nursing a sore arm or some other injury to his body from overthrowing, and you have modern baseball. It's cr*ap.
That 's not pitching...that's throwing and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Pitching based upon the "new" philosophy allows the coaches to concentrate on "calling" pitches not teaching how to pitch. It has allowed coaching to to drop from a true level of understanding of the pitching profession to one of a cursory requirement of understanding the "art of pitching"
Who suffers the most from this farce...the fan. He isn't getting the game of his father's. My son very seldom has seen a pitcher of the stature of a Koufax, or the caliber of Spahn. They were things of beauty out there on the mound.
Now a guy lifts his leg, and throws, no symmetry, fluidity, or beauty in the form. It's just grunt, brute force.
Frank F says it is what it is and I agree, but it isn't the baseball that I grew up with when pitchers threw CG's and knew how to use three or four pitches with a variety of speeds to get batters out.
PGStaff can site that there are pitchers who could compete with "true" pitchers of the past, but when one considers the pool of talent and the difference in demographics ( # of people) in the United States now as there was many years ago when there were far fewer, one can see that the current level of coaches, scouts, managers, etc., are not doing the job.
In my opinion there are only a few pitchers on that list that can carry a candle to the pitchers I listed and those are Clemens and Johnson, Maddux, etc. The rest are journeymen but not All-Stars.
RR - every era of baseball or any sport looks better the further away it gets. There were weak,average,great pitchers back in the "golden era" just as there are today.
They didn't have guns but I'd bet anything the top pitchers in any era of mlb were generally the harder throwers of that time.
To get out the best hitters in the world you need a certain velocity or they simply have too much time to see all of your pitches.
I'm certain with front-office jobs at stake & all the $ involved in mlb now you are seeing the best of the best at getting outs. Yes, the hard throwers may get more chances but no mlb team is going to keep a guy down in the minors if they think he can get hitters out.
At hs & college level heat draws the drools but in mlb almost every pitcher hits the minimum # and it's only about getting outs.
They didn't have guns but I'd bet anything the top pitchers in any era of mlb were generally the harder throwers of that time.
To get out the best hitters in the world you need a certain velocity or they simply have too much time to see all of your pitches.
I'm certain with front-office jobs at stake & all the $ involved in mlb now you are seeing the best of the best at getting outs. Yes, the hard throwers may get more chances but no mlb team is going to keep a guy down in the minors if they think he can get hitters out.
At hs & college level heat draws the drools but in mlb almost every pitcher hits the minimum # and it's only about getting outs.
CADad : That's a nice comment about falling into a trap.
Hitters too,like pitchers, sometimes stay in their 'security' zone as long as they're having some success.
As they move up to more competitive levels they may struggle if their 'security' zone is no longer up to the task.
In both cases,with pitchers pitching and hitters hitting , it's difficult to adapt or change their style in discreet steps because their success may drop during this apparent transition.
Better to constantly and gradually change your game to acheive better results while never really letting go of your success. To lose your success and confidence while making a transition is a daunting problem and can be avoided by ALWAYS looking to improve.
Hitters too,like pitchers, sometimes stay in their 'security' zone as long as they're having some success.
As they move up to more competitive levels they may struggle if their 'security' zone is no longer up to the task.
In both cases,with pitchers pitching and hitters hitting , it's difficult to adapt or change their style in discreet steps because their success may drop during this apparent transition.
Better to constantly and gradually change your game to acheive better results while never really letting go of your success. To lose your success and confidence while making a transition is a daunting problem and can be avoided by ALWAYS looking to improve.
Ramrod,
I can appreciate your opinions. For a 5 year span Koufax was the best I’ve ever seen. For a much longer period… I would think you’d even admit Roger Clemens has had a better career???
The game HAS changed to the point Closers and set up men are a big part of the game. I don’t think it’s a case of pitchers can’t go 9 innings as much as the game has specialized much more. If you want to see the records involving the most complete games, you need to go back to the 1800s. Do you think those pitchers in 1888 were better (than the 6 you mentioned) because of # of complete games?
Also I really don’t understand….
Your son and everyone else has had the opportunity to see some of the very best pitchers (and hitters) who have ever played the game!
I’m an old timer too, I enjoyed watching the great players from the old days. I loved watching Koufax, Spahn, Marichal, etc. (Willie Mays is still my favorite all time player) I actually consider Hershiser a modern day pitcher!
I equally enjoy watching Clemens, Maddux, Randy Johnson, etc. now days…. Don’t You????? These are guys that are great… among the very best of any era. I guess it’s a case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
I sure don’t look at it as a “farce” or anyone having to “suffer” because they had to watch Clemens, Maddux, Santana, Martinez, Johnson or many other of todays great pitchers.
I can appreciate your opinions. For a 5 year span Koufax was the best I’ve ever seen. For a much longer period… I would think you’d even admit Roger Clemens has had a better career???
The game HAS changed to the point Closers and set up men are a big part of the game. I don’t think it’s a case of pitchers can’t go 9 innings as much as the game has specialized much more. If you want to see the records involving the most complete games, you need to go back to the 1800s. Do you think those pitchers in 1888 were better (than the 6 you mentioned) because of # of complete games?
Also I really don’t understand….
Your son and everyone else has had the opportunity to see some of the very best pitchers (and hitters) who have ever played the game!
I’m an old timer too, I enjoyed watching the great players from the old days. I loved watching Koufax, Spahn, Marichal, etc. (Willie Mays is still my favorite all time player) I actually consider Hershiser a modern day pitcher!
I equally enjoy watching Clemens, Maddux, Randy Johnson, etc. now days…. Don’t You????? These are guys that are great… among the very best of any era. I guess it’s a case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
I sure don’t look at it as a “farce” or anyone having to “suffer” because they had to watch Clemens, Maddux, Santana, Martinez, Johnson or many other of todays great pitchers.
PGStaff said:
The game HAS changed to the point Closers and set up men are a big part of the game. I don’t think it’s a case of pitchers can’t go 9 innings as much as the game has specialized much more. If you want to see the records involving the most complete games, you need to go back to the 1800s. Do you think those pitchers in 1888 were better (than the 6 you mentioned) because of # of complete games?
*************************************************
What you offer above is exactly what I perceive is wrong with the game in its current makeup.
To answer your question, yes I do. The fan use to identify with the main starting pitcher's. Aside from the names previously mentioned I can't tell you who the "Super-star" front line pitcher's are in both leagues today. That is not the way it was when pitcher's were expected to pitch complete games.
Not only did the fan identify with a certain pitcher, they also attended games based upon who was starting. That has been destroyed in most cities. Everyone knows now that a starting pitcher doesn't have to go more than 5-6 innings and he is replaced by someone know one knows or cares about.
A pitcher use to stay with a team for most of his career, 14-15 years, now they are no better than hired guns, "here today, gone tomorrow". People can't wrap their loyalty around that scenario.
The overemphasis on velocity versus "the art of pitching" has made it much easier for more "quantity, but it has diminished "quality".
Yes the game has evolved into one for "throwers" but it has not been enhanced "professionally". The coaches may like it since it makes there job much easier, they don't have to know as much for one thing. And since all they have to do is find a kid that can throw heat, their signs to the catcher can be very simple...fastball, fastball, fastball, ad-nauseum, etc. Makes the game boring.
It use to be a batter had to deal with pitchers that could throw four different pitches, thrown from different arm slots, with nuanced spin rotations. Now you get pitching coaches that think the ball should be thrown with one arm slot, one spin rotation, and don't let it be anything other that a fastball. Makes being a pitcher a chore, not a pleasure in the drive to perfection in the art of "getting-people-out".
Just gives the advantage to the batter, when the advantage always used to be with the pitcher. That's the reason no matter how hard they throw, or how fast, the advantage will always be with the batter in their "velocity first system".
The game HAS changed to the point Closers and set up men are a big part of the game. I don’t think it’s a case of pitchers can’t go 9 innings as much as the game has specialized much more. If you want to see the records involving the most complete games, you need to go back to the 1800s. Do you think those pitchers in 1888 were better (than the 6 you mentioned) because of # of complete games?
*************************************************
What you offer above is exactly what I perceive is wrong with the game in its current makeup.
To answer your question, yes I do. The fan use to identify with the main starting pitcher's. Aside from the names previously mentioned I can't tell you who the "Super-star" front line pitcher's are in both leagues today. That is not the way it was when pitcher's were expected to pitch complete games.
Not only did the fan identify with a certain pitcher, they also attended games based upon who was starting. That has been destroyed in most cities. Everyone knows now that a starting pitcher doesn't have to go more than 5-6 innings and he is replaced by someone know one knows or cares about.
A pitcher use to stay with a team for most of his career, 14-15 years, now they are no better than hired guns, "here today, gone tomorrow". People can't wrap their loyalty around that scenario.
The overemphasis on velocity versus "the art of pitching" has made it much easier for more "quantity, but it has diminished "quality".
Yes the game has evolved into one for "throwers" but it has not been enhanced "professionally". The coaches may like it since it makes there job much easier, they don't have to know as much for one thing. And since all they have to do is find a kid that can throw heat, their signs to the catcher can be very simple...fastball, fastball, fastball, ad-nauseum, etc. Makes the game boring.
It use to be a batter had to deal with pitchers that could throw four different pitches, thrown from different arm slots, with nuanced spin rotations. Now you get pitching coaches that think the ball should be thrown with one arm slot, one spin rotation, and don't let it be anything other that a fastball. Makes being a pitcher a chore, not a pleasure in the drive to perfection in the art of "getting-people-out".
Just gives the advantage to the batter, when the advantage always used to be with the pitcher. That's the reason no matter how hard they throw, or how fast, the advantage will always be with the batter in their "velocity first system".
Ramrod,
You sure are welcome to your opinion. I for one happen to disagree with some of what you think.
I think kids like Scott Kazmir have a chance to be the Sandy Koufax of this era.
When I see kids like Dontrelle Willis I get excited. And I don't recall Koufax throwing from very many different arm angles.
You might be right though. I read MN-Mom's post about "Forum Trolls and Flames".
I do believe that Maddux, Santana, Clemens, Smoltz, Martinez, etc. throw more than just a fastball. And the results prove they have done very well at the art of "getting-people-out.
I'm not disagreeing with everything you say, just some of it!
You sure are welcome to your opinion. I for one happen to disagree with some of what you think.
I think kids like Scott Kazmir have a chance to be the Sandy Koufax of this era.
When I see kids like Dontrelle Willis I get excited. And I don't recall Koufax throwing from very many different arm angles.
You might be right though. I read MN-Mom's post about "Forum Trolls and Flames".
I do believe that Maddux, Santana, Clemens, Smoltz, Martinez, etc. throw more than just a fastball. And the results prove they have done very well at the art of "getting-people-out.
I'm not disagreeing with everything you say, just some of it!
PGStaff
Was using a symbolic reference to the fastball as indicative of the current mindset eg., radar gun fetish, etc. I'm well aware of the types of pitches that are being used now. Most use max of two and it's unusual for three or more.
As was conversely a different mindset that trained and educated catcher's (as the norm) in how to set up batter's and where the pitcher had the option to shake off signs. Now it is unusual for the catcher to call a game without a coach calling pitches from the dugout.
Arm slot variance was a thing that was encouraged...consider Juan Marichal used three arm slots, eg. Went from overhand to 3/4 to side arm slurve/curve with three different pitches...and he wasn't the only one like that.
I watched him throw a double header back to back. He went 15 innings in one game. Pitchers back then could do that because their entire lives were dedicated to developing the strength of their arms to throw 200-300 pitches and not suffer more then some tightness in the shoulder.
Dontrelle has a bright future and I hope he has a legendary career. The other pitcher mentioned I know nothing about but as with all pitchers I wish them the best, especially if they are "throwers".
To bad to see so many "good" talents ruined by overthrowing the "heat" and I've watched and read about so many young pitchers suffering injury due to the overstress placed upon them in their pursuit of trying to live upto the "hype" of the "velocity first system".
Was using a symbolic reference to the fastball as indicative of the current mindset eg., radar gun fetish, etc. I'm well aware of the types of pitches that are being used now. Most use max of two and it's unusual for three or more.
As was conversely a different mindset that trained and educated catcher's (as the norm) in how to set up batter's and where the pitcher had the option to shake off signs. Now it is unusual for the catcher to call a game without a coach calling pitches from the dugout.
Arm slot variance was a thing that was encouraged...consider Juan Marichal used three arm slots, eg. Went from overhand to 3/4 to side arm slurve/curve with three different pitches...and he wasn't the only one like that.
I watched him throw a double header back to back. He went 15 innings in one game. Pitchers back then could do that because their entire lives were dedicated to developing the strength of their arms to throw 200-300 pitches and not suffer more then some tightness in the shoulder.
Dontrelle has a bright future and I hope he has a legendary career. The other pitcher mentioned I know nothing about but as with all pitchers I wish them the best, especially if they are "throwers".
To bad to see so many "good" talents ruined by overthrowing the "heat" and I've watched and read about so many young pitchers suffering injury due to the overstress placed upon them in their pursuit of trying to live upto the "hype" of the "velocity first system".
My guess is that after all this, jrenda has started his last thread!! 
Hopefully he is smart enough to separate the chaff from the wheat.
Lots of good info for you here, some of which is probably irrefutable:
- if you have velo, you will get looks
- if you have lots of velo, you will get lots of looks [more if you throw from the wrong side!!]
- your body size probably will afford you more looks than 5'8" throwing the same speed, since your body projects to greater speed.
- once you get the look/opportunity - then it's time to record your share of the aforementioned 27 outs; how you get them might be unimportant
- hopefully as one poster mentioned, your coach is looking at your long-term opportunities - hopefully he has a program/plan to help you boost the mph - regardless of how hard you throw, you can always change arm angles, change speeds, throw different pitches. Ask any pitcher who is throwing low 80s with good movement if they would rather add 6-8 mph and most would jump at the chance.
On the other hand - once you are on the hump, it's all about getting the outs.
My guy [17YO] pitched this summer in the NABF World Series [23YO and under] in Toldeo. 5IP, 47 pitches, 0R, 4H, 0BB. He touches 82, but throws the slider and a 63 mph change-up for strikes, on any count. 9th inning, they bring in a guy that has been drafted 2-3 times, throwing 92-93. Bottom line: they score 4 in the 9th, to go ahead - speed guy had trouble locating his heater and they teed off on him. Again, once you're out there, you have to figure out a way to sit them back down.
Hopefully he is smart enough to separate the chaff from the wheat.Lots of good info for you here, some of which is probably irrefutable:
- if you have velo, you will get looks
- if you have lots of velo, you will get lots of looks [more if you throw from the wrong side!!]
- your body size probably will afford you more looks than 5'8" throwing the same speed, since your body projects to greater speed.
- once you get the look/opportunity - then it's time to record your share of the aforementioned 27 outs; how you get them might be unimportant
- hopefully as one poster mentioned, your coach is looking at your long-term opportunities - hopefully he has a program/plan to help you boost the mph - regardless of how hard you throw, you can always change arm angles, change speeds, throw different pitches. Ask any pitcher who is throwing low 80s with good movement if they would rather add 6-8 mph and most would jump at the chance.
On the other hand - once you are on the hump, it's all about getting the outs.
My guy [17YO] pitched this summer in the NABF World Series [23YO and under] in Toldeo. 5IP, 47 pitches, 0R, 4H, 0BB. He touches 82, but throws the slider and a 63 mph change-up for strikes, on any count. 9th inning, they bring in a guy that has been drafted 2-3 times, throwing 92-93. Bottom line: they score 4 in the 9th, to go ahead - speed guy had trouble locating his heater and they teed off on him. Again, once you're out there, you have to figure out a way to sit them back down.
All I can say is I hope that recruiters do indeed look at whether a pitcher gets people out or just throws hard. I ran into my first case of the throw hard mentality a couple of weeks ago at a 24 team showcase tourney. After my son completed a 2 hit, 53 pitch CG shutout ( only 2 balls made it to the outfield ) the coach at a Big Ten university approached me and asked if that was my son. He then informed me that he loved the way he threw and if he threw 5 mph harder he'd be all over him. At 16 he's pitching at 84-85 and topping at 87 but according to this particular coach he needs to throw 5 mph harder. My hope is this coach finds all the 90+ pitchers he can and continues to dwell in the bottom half of his conference. Hopefully more scouts start looking into whether or not a kid can play and quit getting so hung up on guns and stopwatches
Rick
Trust me velocity is not the "be all end all"--the high octane velocity guys are nice to have but they better know how to pitch---if you cannot get batters out what good are you even if you throw 100 MPH
PG uses a great example in the Kazmir kid-- he throws strikes and get batters out-- him being another Koufax is another thing because to me Koufax is one of a kind but if Kazmir gets even near that level God bless him--he is a good one
Trust me velocity is not the "be all end all"--the high octane velocity guys are nice to have but they better know how to pitch---if you cannot get batters out what good are you even if you throw 100 MPH
PG uses a great example in the Kazmir kid-- he throws strikes and get batters out-- him being another Koufax is another thing because to me Koufax is one of a kind but if Kazmir gets even near that level God bless him--he is a good one
TRHit,
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that Kazmir kid hitting 93-95?
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that Kazmir kid hitting 93-95?
DOC
yes he is-- and gets guys out and has control and command just as I said-- velocity is not the " be all end all" to pitching --one needs how to pitch
And yes I saw him when he was a HS pitcher
HEY DOC-- how do you pitch in college if you are a semi pro player?
yes he is-- and gets guys out and has control and command just as I said-- velocity is not the " be all end all" to pitching --one needs how to pitch
And yes I saw him when he was a HS pitcher
HEY DOC-- how do you pitch in college if you are a semi pro player?
TRHit,
The league I was in was classified as semi-pro but I never got paid. Thats how I did it.
As far as others though from the States who played on the team I'm not so sure how they still have their scholarship after accepting money to play for the team.
Also remember we might have a different classification of semi-pro compared to y'all down there (unsure?)
The league I was in was classified as semi-pro but I never got paid. Thats how I did it.
As far as others though from the States who played on the team I'm not so sure how they still have their scholarship after accepting money to play for the team.
Also remember we might have a different classification of semi-pro compared to y'all down there (unsure?)
Also TRHit
I know a guy needs to have command and control and that speed isn't the 'be all and end all' of pitching.
Trust me on that I'm going through it right now.
I know a guy needs to have command and control and that speed isn't the 'be all and end all' of pitching.
Trust me on that I'm going through it right now.
Actually Scott Kazmir does not have great control. If he did he might become almost unbeatable.
Remind anyone of another lefty and how his career started years ago?
Remind anyone of another lefty and how his career started years ago?
TR,
Just to set the record straight because I agree with you about Sandy Koufax being one of a kind. By the way, Kazmir's only fault is he could improve his control. Here was the exact quote.
A chance... of this era... same goes for Dontrelle Willis. They have a "chance"
At the same age Willis has done better than Koufax. Of course there is that 5 year stretch that will be very difficult to match!
quote:PG uses a great example in the Kazmir kid-- he throws strikes and get batters out-- him being another Koufax is another thing because to me Koufax is one of a kind but if Kazmir gets even near that level God bless him--he is a good one
Just to set the record straight because I agree with you about Sandy Koufax being one of a kind. By the way, Kazmir's only fault is he could improve his control. Here was the exact quote.
quote:I think kids like Scott Kazmir have a chance to be the Sandy Koufax of this era.
A chance... of this era... same goes for Dontrelle Willis. They have a "chance"
At the same age Willis has done better than Koufax. Of course there is that 5 year stretch that will be very difficult to match!
quote:Talked to a high end DI college coach last summer who had a fascinating observation....
Hitters struggle with pitchers who are over bat speed or under bat speed.
The Coach who said this knows absolutely nothing about hitting..........
Jeff Francis a Canadian lefty could not buy a scholarship from a US school and ended up at The University of British Columbia. Velocity at the freshman year 80mph+-. Hard work and setting the record book opside down got hima 1st round draft pick and !.* million dollar signing bonus. Now with Colorado doing it big time.
Adam Loewen a big Canadian lefty throwing 94 got 3.2 signing bonus a year before jeff and he is still in the minors.
I know PG puts a big premium on velocity as do other raters. Don't be blinded by the light.
My son's 80mph has got him were he is and he has pitched against high round draft picks and guys in the minors since he was 16 yrs old. They can do a lot of damage if they can hit the ball.
I also know that you have to work harder to get people at the Pro level to look at you. His opening game last season he closed 3 innings against the 19U team that won our league. 8Ks and a ground out to 1st. He hardly used his curve ball but stayed on the outside corner with his fastball at 84. His coach who puts on MLB camps for the Canadian ML scouting bureau invited him to the next camp a week down the road because of his performance. A few days before the camp the scouts visited our winter work out and my son threw about 30 pitches to a powerfull lefty slugger who went 94th in last junes MLB draft. He fouled off 3 pitches and blew everything else by him. A day before the camp I e-mailed the coach because we did not hear anything about going to the camp. The coach who had said he was inviting him since he was holding the camp uninvited him. His teammates were furious when I told them the story. MLB scouts definitely want velocity.
We know its going to be a battle to get where he wants to go but we will get there.
Adam Loewen a big Canadian lefty throwing 94 got 3.2 signing bonus a year before jeff and he is still in the minors.
I know PG puts a big premium on velocity as do other raters. Don't be blinded by the light.
My son's 80mph has got him were he is and he has pitched against high round draft picks and guys in the minors since he was 16 yrs old. They can do a lot of damage if they can hit the ball.
I also know that you have to work harder to get people at the Pro level to look at you. His opening game last season he closed 3 innings against the 19U team that won our league. 8Ks and a ground out to 1st. He hardly used his curve ball but stayed on the outside corner with his fastball at 84. His coach who puts on MLB camps for the Canadian ML scouting bureau invited him to the next camp a week down the road because of his performance. A few days before the camp the scouts visited our winter work out and my son threw about 30 pitches to a powerfull lefty slugger who went 94th in last junes MLB draft. He fouled off 3 pitches and blew everything else by him. A day before the camp I e-mailed the coach because we did not hear anything about going to the camp. The coach who had said he was inviting him since he was holding the camp uninvited him. His teammates were furious when I told them the story. MLB scouts definitely want velocity.
We know its going to be a battle to get where he wants to go but we will get there.
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BlueDog...
Expound/Explain please.
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BlueDog...
Expound/Explain please.
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I've quite enjoyed this topic, mostly everyone in here raises valid points.
But as I read I'm shocked that no one has brought up a few names that prooves that HS pitching is not all about speed, or that pitching anywhere in gnereal is not all about speed.
All I got to say is;
Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine
But as I read I'm shocked that no one has brought up a few names that prooves that HS pitching is not all about speed, or that pitching anywhere in gnereal is not all about speed.
All I got to say is;
Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine
Anyone know what Maddux and Glavine's fb speeds were when they got drafted?
I do believe that they were both in the 90's--bbscout, I am sure, can confirm if this was so
That was what I was thinking.....just not sure.
Not sure about Glavine, but Maddux threw in the 90s, up to 94 has been reported, as a small high school RHP.
He would not have been selected as early out of high school if he didn't have that velocity! And yes, at his size the velocity alone might not been enough to be a high draft pick.
People should understand that the ABILITY to throw hard doesn't necessarily mean the same as the NEED to throw hard. If that makes any sense????
He would not have been selected as early out of high school if he didn't have that velocity! And yes, at his size the velocity alone might not been enough to be a high draft pick.
People should understand that the ABILITY to throw hard doesn't necessarily mean the same as the NEED to throw hard. If that makes any sense????
I know that this probably won't help much with the question, but here's what I have in The Louisville Slugger Complete Book Of Pitching by Doug Myers and Mark Gola on 2 differetn scouting reports on Maddux in 1984;
"Doubt if he'll be the overpowering type, but should throw a lot of groundballs"
"Change shows good pormise"
"Good control for a high school pitcher"
"Potential to be a front-line pitcher."
"Doubt if he'll be the overpowering type, but should throw a lot of groundballs"
"Change shows good pormise"
"Good control for a high school pitcher"
"Potential to be a front-line pitcher."
TRHit You Have A PM!
This has been an interesting thread.
I don't think anyone could say it is ALL about speed. However, speed is a HUGE part.
I like what PG says about the difference between the ABILITY to throw hard and the NEED to throw hard.
Sure, there will always be exceptions. There will always be kids who can overcome not having velocity by being VERY effective.
But they won't just have better location, movement etc. than those with velocity - they will also be better than other pitchers with good movement, location etc.
But that is the whole point with any of the "Tools" of baseball. If there is one you do NOT have in your favor, you better be able to make up for it somewhere else.
It's all about the total package.
I don't think anyone could say it is ALL about speed. However, speed is a HUGE part.
I like what PG says about the difference between the ABILITY to throw hard and the NEED to throw hard.
Sure, there will always be exceptions. There will always be kids who can overcome not having velocity by being VERY effective.
But they won't just have better location, movement etc. than those with velocity - they will also be better than other pitchers with good movement, location etc.
But that is the whole point with any of the "Tools" of baseball. If there is one you do NOT have in your favor, you better be able to make up for it somewhere else.
It's all about the total package.
We saw a young kid in high school who threw mid 90s. Didn't have much else and a history of trouble. That trouble has been well documented. He did fall to the 4th/5th round because of uncertainity in his life. He definitely had a first round arm.
The Angels drafted him and low and behold he played A Ball in our town for awhile. Great fastball, not much else, and very very wild! Throwing upper 90s by now.
Suspended a few times and injured, the Angels released him in 2004. Those that claim it means nothing to throw with great velocity in high school if you can't get it over the plate or have finesse... Looked like those people were right.
Then again... Mr Bagwell... meet Bobby Jenks!
All fairly straight fastballs... but there's just a little something different about them.
He might fail the next time, but it should be real obvious that there's a big difference between a 90 mph fastball and a 100 mph fastball.
The Angels drafted him and low and behold he played A Ball in our town for awhile. Great fastball, not much else, and very very wild! Throwing upper 90s by now.
Suspended a few times and injured, the Angels released him in 2004. Those that claim it means nothing to throw with great velocity in high school if you can't get it over the plate or have finesse... Looked like those people were right.
Then again... Mr Bagwell... meet Bobby Jenks!
All fairly straight fastballs... but there's just a little something different about them.
He might fail the next time, but it should be real obvious that there's a big difference between a 90 mph fastball and a 100 mph fastball.
This is a very interesting topic, and one I wish I'd looked at sooner. I'd like to give some experiences of the boys who pitched on my 18 & under summer team this year, and some of the other top pitchers around this area and let you all draw your own conclusions.
One boy who pitches on my team is a right hander who lives around 88-91, and occasionally touches 93. He also has a curveball of 78-80 and a changeup of around 70. This boy is an excellent strike thrower, averaging more than 8 K's per walk. During the high school season, he threw two 1-hitters and a no-hitter. His top games of the summer for my team were a 1-hitter with 14 K's and no walks, and another 1-hitter with 10K's and one walk. At one game, the head coach of a major southern CA D-1 is sitting in the stands, and I went to talk with him about this boy. All this guy could talk about was how small the kid is (he's 5'10" and 165)and how he didn't throw hard enough for their team. HUH? That day, he was only throwing around 85-86 and topped out at 88. He went 5 innings, gave up 1 ground ball base hit, K'd 8 hitters with no walks. And he isn't what this coach is looking for. I also spoke with a few other D-1 coaches who liked the boy, but weren't willing to commit very much money to him since he isn't very big for a pitcher. The good news is he did have quite a few schools that did make offers and he verbally committed to an excellent private D1 school in Northern CA with a very, very nice scholarship package.
Two more boys on our team are kids who don't throw hard, but are excellent pitchers who know how to get hitters out. One is a 6'0" lefty with a FB of 82-84, outstanding curveball and good changeup. He's a kid who hits his spots, changes speeds and has great movement on his pitches. Very few schools are interested because he just doesn't make an impression with his FB, but he gets hitters out, consistently. The other boy is a right hander that stands 5'11". He's a knuckleballer who also has a nice spike curve and average FB that barely hits 80. Again, he's a strike thrower, gets batters out and wins games consistently. Not too much interest and the shame for both boys is that each has a GPA above 4.0 with very high SAT scores. Both of these boys could attend high level academic schools and be successful pitchers, but we haven't been able to garner the interest that either of these boys deserve.
Another boy is now pitching at a juco, cruises at 87-90, has touched 94 a time or two. Good slider and changeup. He's a righty, 6'2" and 200. He didn't get very many 4 year schools interest even though he had the grades to attend most universities. He's a workhorse who can pitch a lot of innings. He got workouts for a couple MLB clubs before the draft but wasn't picked so he's at a local juco hoping to do well enough to go in this years draft and forego the rest of his college for the time being.
Beyond these boys, there are four pitchers locally I'm familiar with who have verbally committed to large scholarships with major Division 1 programs here in CA. All four boys stand 6'1" or taller. All four boys regularly throw 88-92, and occasionally go a bit higher. They are generally consistent strike throwers and do have good second pitches. When you add the first boy I've detailed above, that makes 5 early commitments from just this area, and they all throw around 90 consistently. I am not aware of a single local pitcher who has committed to any large baseball program for the early signing period who doesn't have a fastball of at least 87-88.
I'd love to hear some thoughts about these kids.
One boy who pitches on my team is a right hander who lives around 88-91, and occasionally touches 93. He also has a curveball of 78-80 and a changeup of around 70. This boy is an excellent strike thrower, averaging more than 8 K's per walk. During the high school season, he threw two 1-hitters and a no-hitter. His top games of the summer for my team were a 1-hitter with 14 K's and no walks, and another 1-hitter with 10K's and one walk. At one game, the head coach of a major southern CA D-1 is sitting in the stands, and I went to talk with him about this boy. All this guy could talk about was how small the kid is (he's 5'10" and 165)and how he didn't throw hard enough for their team. HUH? That day, he was only throwing around 85-86 and topped out at 88. He went 5 innings, gave up 1 ground ball base hit, K'd 8 hitters with no walks. And he isn't what this coach is looking for. I also spoke with a few other D-1 coaches who liked the boy, but weren't willing to commit very much money to him since he isn't very big for a pitcher. The good news is he did have quite a few schools that did make offers and he verbally committed to an excellent private D1 school in Northern CA with a very, very nice scholarship package.
Two more boys on our team are kids who don't throw hard, but are excellent pitchers who know how to get hitters out. One is a 6'0" lefty with a FB of 82-84, outstanding curveball and good changeup. He's a kid who hits his spots, changes speeds and has great movement on his pitches. Very few schools are interested because he just doesn't make an impression with his FB, but he gets hitters out, consistently. The other boy is a right hander that stands 5'11". He's a knuckleballer who also has a nice spike curve and average FB that barely hits 80. Again, he's a strike thrower, gets batters out and wins games consistently. Not too much interest and the shame for both boys is that each has a GPA above 4.0 with very high SAT scores. Both of these boys could attend high level academic schools and be successful pitchers, but we haven't been able to garner the interest that either of these boys deserve.
Another boy is now pitching at a juco, cruises at 87-90, has touched 94 a time or two. Good slider and changeup. He's a righty, 6'2" and 200. He didn't get very many 4 year schools interest even though he had the grades to attend most universities. He's a workhorse who can pitch a lot of innings. He got workouts for a couple MLB clubs before the draft but wasn't picked so he's at a local juco hoping to do well enough to go in this years draft and forego the rest of his college for the time being.
Beyond these boys, there are four pitchers locally I'm familiar with who have verbally committed to large scholarships with major Division 1 programs here in CA. All four boys stand 6'1" or taller. All four boys regularly throw 88-92, and occasionally go a bit higher. They are generally consistent strike throwers and do have good second pitches. When you add the first boy I've detailed above, that makes 5 early commitments from just this area, and they all throw around 90 consistently. I am not aware of a single local pitcher who has committed to any large baseball program for the early signing period who doesn't have a fastball of at least 87-88.
I'd love to hear some thoughts about these kids.