Pitching and playing Short.... Not a good idea?

My son has been a SS and RHP since he started playing baseball.  He's a 2015 committed to a D1.  He had the exact same issue...never complained after pitching, but would complain about throws from SS.  In the spring of 2013 I got to one of his HS games early, which never happened.  I noticed that when he was throwing from SS, especially in warmups before the game and between innings.....that he would throw sidearm...not because that's how he normally threw, but I think because he was just lazy...and not concentrating on his throwing.  We talked about it....and I even stood outside the fence on the 1st base line during warmups (where he could see me).  He got rid of the sidearm....and hasn't gone back to it.  He's had absolutely no soreness or pain of any kind since

Buckeye,

 

Good point, maybe its how he is throwing from short.  I will have 2016 diagnose it for me. 

If you are a serious baseball player (heading for college or Pro), you are a pitcher or you are not! Not the pitcher today, then tomorrow's shortstop or catcher. Pitchers pitch today, then rest/ slowly prepare for their next game in a few days. You can't be a race horse today and a work horse tomorrow!!

 

Yes, the throw is different; different mechanics. Pitchers may throw 100 pitches today; most in earnest. Shortstops and catchers will make throws in earnest too.... but maybe about 12!!  So, the pitcher is at a higher risk for injury.

 

If you believe your future is pitching, then train that way. If not, focus on the position(s) that provides your best future in the game. Any coach/ manager that does not agree with this, is not acting in the best interest of the player. I believe a discussion with the coach prior to the season is the best way to determine the path. If there is a disagreement, it may be a bad match...move on. Why ruin a promising shortstop or catcher because the current team is short on pitching?

Coach Rick,  I understand what you are saying.  A little info might help.  I think, but I'm not sure that he will be used in non-district games.  But I really don't know , depends on how the season progresses. He could play a bigger role on the varsity or he could not.

Right now he is throwing 85-87  6'2 170.  Most RC see his future as a definate D1 pitcher, his three brothers are pitchers, but he can also hit and has such a love for the game he likes to play . 

 

So I felt like maybe an outfield spot would be better, and hitting when with the JV.  I'm just afraid that the JV coach (newbie) is going to play him too much.  I understand the rest days all too well.  So if he throws Monday on the varsity ( 60 pitch limit)  maybe DH the next JV game and then play the 3rd day? 

 

Our coach schedules JV most every day, and if it rains, then oh well, there's another game tomorrow.  It's not unlike him to schedule 54-55 JV games.

I'm sorry but most here are about to cringe. On my sons HS team the stud pitcher who is highly recruited would rutinely pitch5-6 innings and the coach put him out at SS to finish the game even though they had another good SS. This was not a one time thing but something that happened every time he didn't pitch all 7 innings. I just hope for the kids sake either he communicates with the coach or the coach sees that this is ludicrous.

The typical high school is not a power house loaded with college and pro talent. If a kid tells the coach he's a pitcher only when he can help the team in the field the coach should tell him, "Thanks, go find a team you can pitch only. You won't be playing here. This is about the team not YOUR personal journey to college baseball. Good luck with your baseball."

 

I pitched and played center in high school. It didn't harm me. I even pitched a little my first couple of years of college. My son pitched and played short before becoming a pitcher/center fielder. He also pitched some on his showcase team (innings eater) even though the focus was being a position player. The idea of team sports is be part of a team and help the team win. If a kid want's to be selfish, tell him to take a hike. Once a coach compromises for one kid he has to compromise for the whole team. I'm sorry coach. My singing instructor told me not to yell on the baseball field. I might strain a vocal chord. I'm sorry coach. The basketball coach told me to avoid running into outfield walls. I'll field those when they rebound off the fence. I don't think so. Either go all out for the team or get out. Save the "I'm a pitcher only" for showcase teams.

 

I don't have an issue with a pitcher coming out of the game after he pitches over returning to a position.

RJM, I think you took my reply to Coach Rick not the way I intended it to be.  I never said that he was going to tell the coach he was a PO... In fact he does NOT want to be a PO.  I was simply trying to put some context around my question about pitching and playing SS the pitfalls .... I was trying to clarify that while he is a good position player, he likely is a better pitcher.  I find it odd that you are telling me that you and your son pitched and played outfiled and that's what I'm suggesting he do.  Being part of the team is great and you should always do what the coach asks of you.  But the reality is this kid could pictch one night for the varisty, team and in less than 24 hours I'm taking him to a JV double header 60 miles from where the varsity is playing their next game. The chances that the JV coach is going to have great communication with the varsity coach at this point ( right before they each play) is not going to be good.

 

I am looking out for the welafare of the player.. and I wanted to know what the coaches with exp thought of this.  As far as the college, pro , and the personal journey, you lost me.

 

 

So you never had a singing career, never had a basketball career, never had a baseball career... I wonder why!

OP....you asked for what the Coaches on here thought.  You got an answer from RJM and one from Coach Rick.  

 

RJM, in my humble opinion, is right.  I am the coach of my TEAM.  I care about all the individuals, but I can't let one player dictate what they will or won't do, or I will have everyone doing that.  Now, I think your son can definitely speak up to the head coach or JV coach and say that he doesn't think he can play SS the day after he pitches due to a (normally) sore or tired arm.  And I think most coaches will be responsive to that, give him a day or two of rest, and then let him get back in the game.

 

We have become a society of parents who think their kids need to be placed in bubble-wrap.  Especially pitchers' parents!  Strangely enough, for many, many years kids (and pros) pitched and played another position, or threw on consecutive days. And most of them weren't in the condition that kids today are.  And there was not nearly the amount of arm injuries we see today.

 

Perhaps if you want your son to be a pitcher only (and I know you said that WASN'T what you wanted to do), you should just give up school ball and have him find a summer team where they are open to putting him only in the positions that you feel are the right fit for him.  Because school ball is often about making due with the best you have, forgetting about the personal goals and aspirations, and instead doing everything that is best for the team.

 

I always say the kid should approach his coach and discuss the situation.  A good coach will here him out and think about it.  But a good coach will also tell him what he is going to do, and go ahead and do it.  With or without that player....

You know guys I really just wanted to know how a freshman could go about having a conversation with his coach about not wanting to play SS and pitch.  Then the responses were as if the player was dictating to the coach when and where he was going to play.

 

It's hard to win here.  On one hand some folks think pitching and playing ss is not a good idea.  I have read posts about how one needs to have discussions with their player about not playing too much.

I mena this is a freshman we are talking about... he is being a team player, he is doing what the coaches want.  Honestly I don't think the coach is too concerned where he plays on the JV team.  Heck he might end up on the JV team all season. He might end up on the varsity team. 

 

I just wanted to know two things, is pitching and playing short a bad idea due tot he differences in the positions. And I asked the coaches to respond as to what the best way would be for the player to talk to the coach about it. 

 

And some how , it got to "go play on your travel team" no one is  better than the team etc....

 

I just have a freshman that is happy to get his chances on the varsity, but really does not want to become a PO as a freshman.   And I get, is it's my why or the highway.....

 

I really do not care what someone did 40 years ago and I never said that he was not going to do what the coach asks of him.

Interesting discussion. 2019Son pitches and play short. The two high schools he is interested in attending don't pitch their shortstops at all. The shortstops are full time shortstops [maybe there should be a new acronym: SO  ;-) ], I think mostly for defensive reasons (I was under the impression that this was quite common in high school, but from the replies on this thread it seems that it is the exception). So I was or am expecting a position switch at some point one way or the other (e.g., shortstop only/not pitching or pitching and playing some other position.)

 

As to the specific situation of the OP, I think it depends on how much he pitches on varsity. If he is starting and/or pitching a lot, playing shortstop in a doubleheader the next day seems risky to the arm health of the pitcher. If,OTOH, he is throwing an inning in relief for varsity, probably not a big deal for him to go play shortstop the next day. I know "it depends" is maybe not a good answer, but that's the way I see it -- in short (no pun intended) I think it depends on how much rest he gets after pitching a lot. 

My son is currently a PO as a junior in college. When he was a freshman in HS, he was pretty much in the same situation as your son. And it was exactly what I was hoping for him. He was a starting pitcher on varsity and a SS on the JV team. I don't know what your coaches are going to do, but my son's coaches definitely watched out for him and the varsity and JV coaches communicated. If he pitched a game on varsity and had a JV game the next day, they just had him DH. If it was 2 days later and he was still a little sore, he'd play 2B. 3rd day he was usually good to play SS.  It worked out fine for him. I'm not sure freshman year is the time to worry about being a PO. I know my son did not want to give up playing in the field and hitting yet - even though he knew he would wind up being a pitcher if he went on to the next level.

My question to you is what makes you think the coaches are not going to look out for him and his health? That's really what we're talking about here. I can't imagine varsity and JV coaches not talking to each other and having a plan for all their players. I don't think the varsity coach would allow his JV coach to jeopardize the health of a current and future varsity pitcher.

If anything, let things play out and see what happens. If your son pitches one day and feels like he is too sore to make the throws from SS the next day, he should tell the JV coach that he's still sore from pitching the night before. Ask if he can just DH or maybe play 2nd if he feels up to it. If it becomes a health issue and the JV coach ignores your son's request, then you may have to say something to the varsity coach. More than likely, he'll be open to your concerns. Until then, I would quit worrying about it and enjoy the fact that your son is valued enough by the varsity coach to be put on the varsity roster as a freshman. It is an honor.

JMHO

They played mine at 3rd because the throwing action was more consistent from that position. That being said his sophomore year in college he was the 1st rotation pitcher and would go 100 pitches deep in the game before being pulled and would slide right over to 3rd. He never missed a game and started every weekend series Friday or Saturday depending on which was the better matchup.

Still has a strong arm and never complained of elbow pain.

The throw from short is different when the position is played correctly. A lot of angles.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with an arrogant horse's behind. I'll only respond once just to prove you're wrong again. I played D1 baseball. I earned three letters each in three high school sports. 

REAL NICE!  You must be very proud!

I dont think they would do anything to hurt him, but if you think about it, they obviously feel that he can help the team the most by pitching first. And I think he would be a pitcher for the future, so if that is the case why not play a position like RF or 3rd that has more of a pitchers motion than SS?   I understand that the HC should not "give in" to a single players requests.

 

I would say that in the future he would pitch alot and likely not play a lot of SS when he is a jr. sr.   . Maybe I'm just worrying about nothing.  I just really have the notion that pitching and playing the specific position SS is not a good idea.  I might be wrong.  Another poster metioned that if done properly he should not have a problem. I just can see a situation where as the season goes along the innings will mount. 

 

Thanks for the opinons, I can tell you that HE needs to talk to the coaches and figure it out. And I was wanting a coaches perspective if you had a player that was concerned about it.    I am just trying to think through this with him.  I think as long as he is given rest after pitching he should be fine.  And yes part of me is scared that he becomes a PO before he wants to be. Now that I think about it the HC did say one day that he can play him at SS then pitch him, but he cannot pitch him then play short. So I guess the HC is also thinking of how to do this.

You are the first line of defense against your son being hurt. Take that role seriously, but diplomatically and cautiously. Do not relinquish it.

 

Remember. to play Shortstop properly it does require sidearm throws, submarine throws and throws from all sorts of angles. To play Shortstop and make your throws over the top, or similar to your natural pitching motion is not how you play the position well. You may be adequate, but you are not playing the position properly. Why learn to play a position incorrectly?

I guess it is JV HS ball and it is fine. If he will eventually be a PO that is okay, but he may lose his edge as an infielder by learning bad habits, that will be hard to correct.

If his future is PO and is fine to give up playing every game and swinging the bat eventually all is good.

But again, you are his first line of defense against injury. No one cares about your sons future as much as you do!

I know that you directed your question to coaches but there will be different responses that you might get from a parents perspective.
Son played ss and pitcher as a freshman. It didnt kill him but the key here is that he felt no discomfort...until the following fall. At that time he became a pitcher only on all of his teams until senior year in HS ball when he played first as well. If he throws especially hard this should be a concern and right field a good option. Being a freshman is all about gaining experience against older players.

Coaches are going to do whats best for their team. Parents need to inquire and decide whats best for their player. If it bothers him after playing the ss position he should speak to them. HE should, not you and it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks when a situation arises when a players health is at risk.

Every situation is different.

Well, this thread got "interesting", and maybe not in a good way. My 2017 is a catcher and has not pitched or played SS since he was 9-10. My input can only be general (FWIW, likely not much).

 

IMHO, a teenaged player needs to be able to communicate effectively with this HS coaches and the parent should jump in when his son's health is a legitimate issue. Should be rare but I saw a JV coach pitch a kid 100+ pitches first game of the JV season in the cold and kid needed tommy john. I truly hope that guy was fired and never coaches again. Playing a position where there will be or can be expected to be a lot of throwing right after pitching a LOT seems like a bad idea.

I would recommend talking to the HC about your concerns and take it from there.  

 

If you get no help from the coaches then its up to you to guard your son from injury. 

 

You son will need to be honest with you how his arm/shoulder feels after pitching for Varsity.  He can always approach the JV coach and tell him his arm is sore from pitching for Varsity and they should keep him out of the lineup. 

 

 

If he pitches one day and plays at ss on a regular basis, this is a legit concern for you.

Thanks for the responses , it seems there is reason for concern. At this point I think 2018 should step back and see what develops.  While HC has told him what he feels his roles will be on the V and JV , I told him that all could change in the next couple of weeks when they start scrimmaging. 

 

I'm sure the coach has a good idea of what he is going to do, but until they start playing you really do not know.

So I think he will take a wait and see approach rather than saying something too early and sounding like a "freshman primadonna" .    He is very excited to get his V opportunities. 

 

 If he is logging too many innings he will mention to the HC that he is getting fatigued.

My thought is that although generalizations can be made regarding the wisdom of trying to pitch and play other defensive positions, or the wisdom of becoming a single sport, or single position  player at a young age the reality is that it depends on the individual, their goals and objectives.  

 

Sports and baseball pitching in particular place significant stresses on tendons, ligaments, muscles and bones in the elbow and shoulder.  This is an unavoidable fact.  Proper mechanics can minimize the damage that occurs during a 70+ pitch outing but it is impossible to eliminate it. So what are your sons goals?  Does he want to be a professional pitcher? Does he dream of being the next Derek Jeter? Is he enjoying the sport and social experience of HS baseball?  Does he plan on playing college ball and desires a scholarship to do that? Once you have assessed your objectives they other party here is the HS Varsity coach.  It is important to understand his objectives for example, Does he have aspirations of coaching beyond HS? Is he a teacher that is really into the school spirit aspects of baseball?  Is he a student of the game and desires to impart wisdom to a new generation of young men? Does he want more than life itself to hoist a state championship trophy?

 

Some of this might seem silly but how the coaches goals and objectives and your sons goals and objectives align is important to answer your question.  If the coach is all about winning than RJM may be right and your discussion will likely result in "You will contribute in whatever way I (the coach) tells you to". However Coach Rick is absolutely right from a baseball injury and risk perspective.  If the coach is a developer of talent then he would be more understanding of the long term concerns and you may have a positive and productive discussion on the best way to develop this very obvious talent.  

 

I believe as a coach I have always fallen into the latter category and would embrace a player engaging me in an honest discussion regarding how to best care for their arm for pitching while allowing them to contribute through batting and fielding.  To me that is the challenge of a great coach, to win while developing players talent and maintaining the health of the players.  Not everyone sees their job as a coach that way.  

 

So now for the advice part...If it were my son I would explain the importance of being a man and knowing your own mind.  Know what is important to you, know your limitations and capabilities, Engage the coach respectfully to understand their expectation is for you.  How they see you contributing?  Let them know you want to be the best you can for the team but share that you are playing SS on JV and that you have experienced some arm soreness.  Communicate that you don't want to let anyone down but your are concerned that if you continue to do what you have been doing you are scared of letting everybody down by coming up lame and not being able to contribute on either team. Maybe there is a fundamental change that the coach can identify to help, maybe they can come up with an approach that provides the needed rest and recovers after a given pitch count or perhaps they will tell him to suck it up and let them coach.  In any case you will have achieved your objective and gathered enough information to make a good decision for your son and he will have learned how to interact as a man and communicate.  All just food for thought...

Is this even legal?  That is a TON of games!!  That is the number of games most college teams play in a season.  And that's just JV.  If you add in varsity games, your son could be involved in over 60 games in the spring HS season???  Does Tennessee not limit the number of games a team can play during the HS season?  I know here in Georgia, the Varsity HS regular season is 26 games.  The rule is that a player cannot play in more than 26 games during the regular season - freshman game, JV games and Varsity games combined.  So, if a JV player plays in 15 JV games, he can only play in 11 varsity games for a combined total of 26 games.

 

Nothing like that in Tennessee?  I'm thinking just that schedule with or without pitching and playing SS is a brutal schedule.

Yup, you got it.  I have experienced this before on here....one side of the board is saying *gasp* OMG he's going to tear his arm out of the socket if you don't do something...and the other side of the board says Who does your kid think he is telling a coach what to do with HIS team...gosh, what an uncoachable brat he sounds like, and not a good teammate at all!...then you have to wait for the ASMI people to chime in at which point they point out that your kid is violating TONS of the guidelines for youth pitchers and poof you are struck with the reality that Lacrosse is sounding better and better because all you wanted to know was "How does he approach the coach and tell him he would rather play right field?"

 

Hope that clears everything up!

LOL...apparently we are not putting on our listening ears

I have had sons playing HS ball in Tennesse since 2009 and to my knowledge here is the rule.  Varsity team can only play ( I think) 32 games excluding post season.  BUT there are no rules for jv games, so we schedule as many as possible, the thinking is that the 20-22 jv players get enough innings and if it rains, you just move on, no re-scheduling issue with JV games.  Now factoring in the rain and other teams cancelling, they will get in at least 40-42 games. plus 4-5 scrimmages.  Believe me, all the parents for years have talked the about the jv trail of tears. No only that , they do not take a bus....

What's missing in this conversation is perspective. Not all high school baseball experiences come from the same place. The larger the school, the more possible (maybe even probable) it is that a PO situation is feasible. We moved to a smaller community last year where the high school baseball team is a 3A powerhouse and one of two favorites to take the state title this season. School enrollment is around 400. At this age, your stud pitchers are most likely also your best overall baseball players. It's quite common that your ace starting pitcher might also be, far and away, your best ss. In a larger school, it's likely that your second best player at the pitcher's other position is also of high enough quality that the gap isn't so great and PO is a workable option. In a community like mine where high school baseball is king, a kid who can make a major contribution to the goal of winning a state title by playing another position as well is likely to take a lot of heat for being a prima dona if he expresses a desire to only pitch. In a larger school, it's likely to go completely unnoticed. Here it would be remarkable. This tiny community, over the years has produced major league pitchers Doug Brocail, Mark Thompson and Scott Elarton. Both Brocail and Elarton had long careers, but all three were plagued by injury problems. All three were also major position players when they didn't pitch. They also brought home mutiple state championships.

  Now, I hope my son's hs coach doesn't read this and think I just outed him as having been a part of the injury problem. My point is really that, if he wanted to reach the team goals (state titles), this was an unavoidable situation. The question becomes, should he have severely handicapped his team's chances at winning state titles for the purpose of saving a kid or two from possible future arm troubles? I don't think you can put that on him, assuming he wasn't throwing them out there for 150 pitches an appearance or otherwise abusing them in some unacceptable manner.

 

As to backdoor's problem. It's looking like my kid will be in almost the same position (except it's likely to be PO on varsity and 3b/lf on JV). We've made it clear, in our case, however, that he's fine with being PO on varsity and leaving it at that because there were some indications to me that the JV part of the equation would be more because the coach actually worries that my son would be unhappy being PO and this would give hima chance to play. My thoughts are that he can get any position time and batting he may want in during summer ball. I'll leave it up to the HC, but didn't want him thinking he needed to play him as a position player on JV just to keep him happy.

Hopefully the coach will give weight to your sons concerns if this happens. 

Last year my son pitched a 130-140 PC game (8 innings) on a Tuesday and on Friday was DH.  His arm was still sore and he made sure the coach understood.  

I will sound like a broken record but there really needs to be a mandate from the UIL, like concussion rules for football, that protects the arm health of pitchers.  Parents should not have to be the "bad guys" when bringing issues like this to the coaches. 

I counted our Varsity games last year and it was 27 games which included 6 post season 2 games in a tournament and 3 scrimmages.  

 

The schedule for Varsity this year is 4 scrimmages, two tournaments (probably 4 total games) and 17 games.

I think that is the right approach.  Everything now is just speculation.  You have no idea what the coaches are actually going to do.  Handle the situation as they arise.  Good luck. 

This is why I don't believe that freshman pitchers should start on varsity.  Too many games. Maybe getting called up at the end of the season is ok, but playing on both teams, then heading to summer ball, then fall, just too much.

Your son is 12, this is bds's 4th son to play in HS baseball.  He knows and understands at this point this isn't about playing time, and that his 4th son in the bb program can speak for himself. He has learned when it is appropriate to intervene and when not to, hopefully. So I am not sure where anyone said that anyone was going to tear their arm out of the socket in any discussion.  You have asked a lot of good questions and got very good answers for your sons appropriate age. As far as ASMI, I wish that they had these guidelines when son was younger, but reality is that using your judgement as a parent of a player with potential (which is usually most apparent in HS) is always what works best.  In other words, if it doesnt feel right, you have a right to question the coaches decision (when health is the concern).

Coaches are not always right in the decisions they make. When your son is in HS, college, or the pros and he requires surgery, the only person to look in the mirror is YOU.

 

I tend to agree. Either put them on varsity if they can contribute or put them on JV. If they can only contribute to varsity as a pitcher then make them a PO. It's counter-productive to the kid to play so much especially so early in the "overall" season (including HS and summer ball). I think most coaches with a stud freshman pitcher worry that if they play varsity as a PO, they'll fall behind in development as a position player and hitter. However, they don't understand that if this is the kid's future, not playing a position for a couple of months of HS ball isn't going to kill him development-wise.

I never thought about being a PO for the HS team and going back to a position for the summer... but that sounds doable.  I did not ahve this issue with fisrt three they were always PO's  couldn't hit.

Originally Posted by Buckeye 2015:

My son has been a SS and RHP since he started playing baseball.  He's a 2015 committed to a D1.  He had the exact same issue...never complained after pitching, but would complain about throws from SS.  In the spring of 2013 I got to one of his HS games early, which never happened.  I noticed that when he was throwing from SS, especially in warmups before the game and between innings.....that he would throw sidearm...not because that's how he normally threw, but I think because he was just lazy...and not concentrating on his throwing.  We talked about it....and I even stood outside the fence on the 1st base line during warmups (where he could see me).  He got rid of the sidearm....and hasn't gone back to it.  He's had absolutely no soreness or pain of any kind since

 

I take that to mean throwing sidearm is damaging to the elbow.

Originally Posted by bacdorslider:

…Our coach schedules JV most every day, and if it rains, then oh well, there's another game tomorrow.  It's not unlike him to schedule 54-55 JV games.

 

WOWSERS! It sounds like you’re saying Tn has no rules about how many contests can be played.

TPM, this was a TOTAL tongue in cheek comment on how the board generally handles questions of this type...I thought that was obvious with the socket inference.

Tennessee's game limit is 30 although you can play more with tournaments since they only count as 3 games no matter how many you play. They state does not acknowledge JV I guess it's considered club ball or something of that nature so there are no rules for it.