Pitching anomaly

Probably may have to do with the fact that he probably isn't comfortable throwing a four seam because he may use the two seam more often.

I'd imagine he would be around 84-85mph with the four seam if he starts to throw it more frequently. Just playing catch with the grip would probably help.

We all know that the four seam should have more velocity than the two seam, but it could vary if the kid isn't comfortable with the feel of the ball with a four seam grip.

Bravescoach-

From my experience, I think the two/four seam speed and movement differences are blown way out of proportion. I think the movement comes more from how the pitchers arm works and the location of their hand at release point. Just remember, the movement is probably more important than 1 or 2 mph.

coach,

I find this to be true at this age due to the size of the kids hands and fingers. It was no different for me when I was that age. My hand size better suited the two seamer because the ball without all the seams was smaller in my hand this allowing me to finish the pitches better. The four seamer didnt start to feel comfortable to me until College where my hand grew and the four seamer bacame more comfortable in my hand. Ball basically became a better fit in my hand and I was able to finish through the pitches.
As the guys go from the 15 to the 17 age group it is important to watch the kids grips. Their body changes a lot at this period, and you have to make the adjustments with the grip right along with the body changes.

My geuss is the ball feels better to him with the two seamer, the four seamer has a tendency to feel like a beach ball in a smaller hand.
JMO..

quote:

Originally posted by CoachIU26:
Probably may have to do with the fact that he probably isn't comfortable throwing a four seam because he may use the two seam more often.

You are correct, Coach. He had never thrown a 4-seamer until he joined us last fall...if you can believe that.

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
Bravescoach-

From my experience, I think the two/four seam speed and movement differences are blown way out of proportion. I think the movement comes more from how the pitchers arm works and the location of their hand at release point. Just remember, the movement is probably more important than 1 or 2 mph.

nc - I agree completely. However, my query is how he is achieving greater velocity as he uses fewer seams.

quote:

Originally posted by SPARKY1:
coach,

I find this to be true at this age due to the size of the kids hands and fingers. It was no different for me when I was that age. My hand size better suited the two seamer because the ball without all the seams was smaller in my hand this allowing me to finish the pitches better. The four seamer didnt start to feel comfortable to me until College where my hand grew and the four seamer bacame more comfortable in my hand. Ball basically became a better fit in my hand and I was able to finish through the pitches.
As the guys go from the 15 to the 17 age group it is important to watch the kids grips. Their body changes a lot at this period, and you have to make the adjustments with the grip right along with the body changes.

My geuss is the ball feels better to him with the two seamer, the four seamer has a tendency to feel like a beach ball in a smaller hand.
JMO..

Good point, Sparky...I have noticed and experienced the same with my students. However, this kid is a 6-footer with long fingers. Thus, in this case, it would be more a matter of comfort than capability if that's, in fact, what this boils down to.

quote:

Originally posted by Bravescoach:
nc - I agree completely. However, my query is how he is achieving greater velocity as he uses fewer seams.

Something to think about is whether he's putting 3 fingers on that 4 seemer. I've seen kids in the past sneek another finger on without even thinking about it. The more fingers, the slower the pitch. I've never seen anyone "sneek" another finger on the ball throwing a 2 seemer. Again, just something to think about.

Bravescoach-

It is just one of those things that happens that is hard to explain. Every pitcher has to find what works for him and I still am not really sold aboutn the velocity differences in 2 versus 4 seamers. I've heard it a million times too but call me a doubting Thomas, I guess. (Where is Gotwoodforsale with a picture) My one kid cannot throw anything straight whether it is a 2 or 4 seamer (it just moves in a different plane)& the other kid follows a little more of what you say. However, I am a big arm slot guy and I think the key is in the arm slot & where your hand is at release. Kids who spin off get a lot of run on everything they throw regardless of the grip. At least that is the case with my two. I guess you just have to experiment and find out what works. Sparky's explanation sounds like a winner with the smaller kids. Many of the little kids use 3 fingers whn they throw cause their hands are so small. Have a great Holiday everyone!!!

First of all, the difference between 78 and 79 mph is negligible. What you may be seeing is nothing more than the error range of the gun you're using, or something more related to the typical peak and fall of a pitcher who gains speed as he limbers up and then starts tapering off as he fatigues.

Secondly, the difference in velocity typical between the 2- and 4-seam fastballs is not a matter of whether you have seams under your fingers in the grip, but rather, of the fact that a 2-seamer typically encounters more "drag" in flight. The same thing that enhances the movement reduces linear velocity a tad.

If the pitcher is under the impression that the thing that creates velocity is his grip on the seams -- a misconception -- then the problem may well be that he is squeezing the ball a bit more tightly on his 4-seamer. This can also happen when, from lack of experience/comfort with that grip, he just grips it tighter out of nervousness for his ability to control the pitch. Grip tension can lead to greater tension all the way up the arm, too, and all that tension robs velocity.

Encourage him to take his grip, then relax and let the ball whip out of his hand without forcing it.

As for the comment that the differences between the two pitches are overrated, hmmmm, how should I put this? Maybe you're not doing it right.

Ever watched Greg Maddux pitch? You don't get his kind of movement with a 4-seamer, esp. once you leave the youth league, raised seam baseball behind and move into higher level ball where the seams are flatter.

True, you can do things with your arm action to accentuate movement using either grip, and you can refrain from changes to arm action as well. But if you throw your 2-seamer and your 4-seamer exactly the same way, most commonly you will lose 1-2 mph on the 2-seamer, and most commonly you will gain sinking and/or tailing action.

I agree with your post except the following

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Secondly, the difference in velocity typical between the 2- and 4-seam fastballs is not a matter of whether you have seams under your fingers in the grip, but rather, of the fact that a 2-seamer typically encounters more "drag" in flight. The same thing that enhances the movement reduces linear velocity a tad.

We measure velocity with radar guns (at least if we're trying to discern 1-2mph differences ), and for baseball, the guns are always operated to measure the peak pitch speed, which is just after the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. Guns generally acquire the speed before the ball has gone 1/10th of the way to the plate. Neither kind of pitch has slowed down by even 1 mph during that time, and the difference in slowing between the two pitches is truly insignificant.
There has to be some other explanation.

I have to admit that's a good point I had not thought of before.

That my explain why, with my own son, his 2-seamer always registers at the same speeds as his 4-seamer, even though to my naked eye it looks like it comes in a tad slower.

Another issue is that often times, pitchers are trained to hold their 2-seamer off center -- fingers bunched on one seam to make it tail one way, on the other seam to make it run the other way. If the same amount of force is applied, but not through the center of the ball, the resulting forward velocity will be less than (as with the 4-seamer) when the force is applied directly through the ball's center of gravity.

I don't think it's too extraordinary. I have the same situation; typically I throw the 2-seamer harder than the 4-seamer because I'm more comfortable with the pitch, and the grip itself is alot easier to control. I think that pitchers with smaller hands might have better success with the 2-seamer because holding a 4-seamer on the horseshoe requires you to have longer fingers to control the pitch better. All in all, it might just be anomalous anyways for him considering he's only 15.

I have heard the saying also that a four seamer should ride more and have more velocity than a two seamer, but to my common sense, that just doesn't seem correct. A ball that has four seams rotating and creating drag will go faster than a ball that only has two seams rotating and creating drag? Does that seem counterintuitive to anyone else? I also don't believe that two seam fastballs move more. Again, a pitch thrown with four seams creating drag should have more sink and movement that a pitch thrown with only two seams rotating. It may be easier to put pressure on a two seam fastball making it move more, but if you just throw them both with no pressure, I'm not sure there is a difference.

If anyone can explain the physics of why a four seamer goes faster than a two-seamer, please do, but until I hear a good explanation, I'll tell my kids to go with what you are more comfortable with, the difference will be so small it's not worth worrying about in my book.

Four-seam fastballs have four seams spinning counter clockwise with horizontal axes. The bottom seams rotate forward to collide with air molecules and create increased pressure. The top seams rotate away from the air molecules and create decreased pressure. As a result, four seam fastballs have increased pressure below the baseball and decreased pressure on top of the baseball. These pressures cause four seam fastballs to move upwardly, giving it the natural rise. The four-seam fastball also generates more velocity because you are able to impart greater spin on it with the additional top seam you grip. The extra seam allows you to have better grip, and naturally allows you to create more spin by creating downward pressure against the seam. I think two-seamers have naturally sinking motion because of the natural motion of your arm when you throw a ball. The pronation of your arm when you pitch tilts the seams to a degree when the same process that happens to a four-seamer, happens to a two-seamer, but in a different direction because the seams are aligned differently when you release them.

Whether it spins clockwise or counter-clockwise depends on which side of the pitcher you're standing on when you look at it!

The 4-seam spin tends to stay straighter because the seams are evenly spaced and so the impact of seams on air is uniform through rotation. With a 2-seamer, the seams hit the directional path with uneven spacing. The ball can develop a "wobble" that enhances the movement. Kind of like driving your car with one of the two front tires under inflated -- you'll feel a pull to the drag side.

As for the physics explanation for decreased velocity on the 2-seamer:

If you're into vectors, when the 2-seamer starts to tail or run or sink, most of the velocity remains on the vector pointing directly to the plate, but some of the momentum bleeds off into a vector heading left, right or down. With a 4-seamer there is less of that effect and so the vector towards home retains more of the initial forward momentum (or "muzzle velocity" if you prefer).

By the way, the potential for a fastball to rise is a topic that generates its own believers and non-believers. I happen to be a believer. But the physics explanation for the rising fastball has little to do with the seams and all to do with the spin, rotational velocity, and what your physics professor would call "dipole moment". After all, a billiard ball or a bowling ball (smoothly surfaced spheres) will travel a curved path if spun with "English".

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:

By the way, the potential for a fastball to rise is a topic that generates its own believers and non-believers. I happen to be a believer. But the physics explanation for the rising fastball has little to do with the seams and all to do with the spin, rotational velocity, and what your physics professor would call "dipole moment". After all, a billiard ball or a bowling ball (smoothly surfaced spheres) will travel a curved path if spun with "English".

Scientists have universally refuted the myth that a fastball can actually rise. For a baseball to do so, the Magnus effect would have to be greater than the weight of the baseball (coupled with the force of gravity) which is a physical impossibility. Simply put, a pitcher cannot create the sufficient rpm's for a baseball to do so. (Reference "The Physics of Baseball" by Robert K. Adair or visit http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/baseball2204/Magnus_Force.html for an explanation of the Magnus effect)

And, while I agree that smooth spheres do have the capability to curve (assuming sufficient spin), in the case of cue balls and bowling balls, both are dependent upon the surfaces they interact with. Anyone who has bowled on oily lanes can attest to that! I digress.

Jmurrey -

Thanks for the explanation, you may have made a believer out of me. At least you've peaked my interest enough to do a little research.

Is this a 2 seamer with the seams or across them?

Somewhere I have an article that explains the "rising fastball." Being too lazy to go thru my stuff I will try and explain in easy terms.

No, a rising fastball does NOT actually rise. Gravity affects every object equally (regardless of the weight)but the spin changes pressure as explained. The eye is trained thru experience that a ball will "fall" at the rate of gravity. Example: A 90 mph fastball may fall 10 inches due to gravity and that is what the eye expects to happen. A "rising fastball," due to the pressure difference may only fall 6 inches which gives the impression that it rose. In effect, it just didn't fall as much - kind of an illusion.

Same thing for a sinker. It falls more, due to pressure than the eye expects.

Now to complicate things... which is pitching, is to throw a high hard one about 3 mph faster than your normal fastball and because the ball is in flight a shorter time, gravity does not have as much time to affect the ball and it doesn't fall as much either. It you look at the physics of hitting the ball, missing the sweet spot by 1/4 of an inch many times is the difference bewteen a flyball and a moon shot.

This high hard one is why so many kids/hitters can't lay off that pitch. It many times does not fall into the zone the same as other pitches. The secret as a pitcher is work the top of the zone with a pitch that does not come down to the location that the hitter thinks it will. That is also why high sinkers turn into moon shots, it comes down and the hitter has a great view of the front of the ball coming towards homeplate!

When Curt Schilling was in his prime with the AZ Diamondbacks, he thought pitching high/low was more important than in/out. He did pretty well with it.

I don't think it matters whether you hold the 2-seamer with the seams running under your fingers, or if you hold it with the 2 seams crossing under your finger tips. You get the same rotation either way.

Bravescoach, as I said, this topic has been debated before.

I view the supposed scientific proofs with a very jaundiced eye. After all, some scientists also claim to have proved that a curve ball doesn't curve, it's just an optical illusion!

I personally have seen rising fastballs. IMHO I know that fastballs can rise. The only remaining question is, why and how?

Some folks confuse their inability to explain the why and how with the notion that it does not or cannot happen. I don't think Einstein or Edison would have approved of that approach. It's really more vanity than science.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I personally have seen rising fastballs. IMHO I know that fastballs can rise. The only remaining question is, why and how?

Midlo - Adair offers a very thorough scientific explanation in his book "The Physics of Baseball". While his material includes some extremely advanced scientific principles, his message is quite clear and makes perfect sense to me...give it a read.

Nonetheless, and in the end, it really doesn't matter what you believe, I believe, nor science believes. What matters the most is what the hitter believes. IMO, when it comes to hitting, perception is reality. Whether or not a certain pitch actually exists is of no consequence if it's virtual effect has been accomplished.

Happy Holidays to all and thanks for all of your inciteful responses.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I don't think it matters whether you hold the 2-seamer with the seams running under your fingers, or if you hold it with the 2 seams crossing under your finger tips. You get the same rotation either way.

Bravescoach, as I said, this topic has been debated before.

I view the supposed scientific proofs with a very jaundiced eye. After all, some scientists also claim to have proved that a curve ball doesn't curve, it's just an optical illusion!

I personally have seen rising fastballs. IMHO I know that fastballs can rise. The only remaining question is, why and how?

Some folks confuse their inability to explain the why and how with the notion that it does not or cannot happen. I don't think Einstein or Edison would have approved of that approach. It's really more vanity than science.

Well, no..it does matter where you place the seams on a 2-seam fastball. If you grip the ball with the seams so that they are outside your fingers, you naturally generate more spin and hence, more movement. The most effective way to grip a ball, regardless of which pitch it is, is when you are able to gain leverage on top of a seam to generate more spin. Placing your fingers on the two seams negates the leverage you would get from placing your fingers inside the seams (not to mention, this method can give you wicked blisters on your index finger).