Pitching Backwards...

If you pitchers who are "underpowered" are freshmen or sophomores, this is inadvisable as it would detract from their fastball development.  If they are seniors, I agree.

I am not a coach but I cant believe that another coach told you to use this approach.

Primary pitch should be the FB, everything should work off of that no matter what the speed.  The less they use the pitch, the less success they will have, and if anyone has any future potential, you may be doing them a great in justice.

 

As a coach, why not work on helping them to develop a better FB? You know like working the corners, up down in out etc, they don't have to be overpowering to be successful. Their FB's can be as accurate as their off speed.

 

JMO

I don't think his approach is that bad.  I am sure he will he will have the kids training to develop their fastball. It seems to be a general consensus here that at this level coaches need to win, so until they do develop, it may pay off better to work smart on the mound, not necessarily hard......he has to work with what he's got

With that philosophy I understand why so many young pitchers don't get opportunities later on.

Why can't he work with the pitchers to USE their FB, if they are accurate with their other pitchers they can learn to be with their FB. Sooner or later the better hitters are going to catch on, and realize that off speed will be the first offering and lay off.

I am with Bum on this one.

I don't think he is not going to work with the kids on their FB's, it sounds like a plan UNTIL the develop it.  By your own statements, if the hitters figure out that an off speed pitch is coming first, and choose to lay off that's even better for the pitcher, after all, doesn't the pitcher want to get ahead in the count?

 

Most pitchers in HS are taught first pitch FB to get ahead, that's why I like aggressive hitters that are willing to sit and swing first pitch, knowing they are more than likely going to see a FB first pitch.

 

The OP's idea will cause a lot of batter rhythm diruption and may prove to be effective for him

By HS, better hitters already know to recognize and lay off of secondary pitches early in the count. If a pitcher can get a curve in for called strike one against these hitters consistently, his likelihood of getting outs is increased.  So that's good.  The trick is in getting the curve in for a strike.  It's not that easy.   Plus, once a pattern is established, good hitters will move up in the box and hammer off-speed pitches thrown in the zone.  Pitching backwards is a legit strategy, but has no guarantee of success.

 

As for development for play at the next level, that's great of course, but it's not the only priority.  Coaches want to win games, and most HS pitchers will be done after HS,

I agree with Bum.  

and by JCG...

"The trick is in getting the curve in for a strike.  It's not that easy.   Plus, once a pattern is established, good hitters will hammer off-speed pitches thrown in the zone."

 

Our varsity HC/Pitching coach uses this strategy often and with very good success.  He does not neglect the FB as the primary pitch.  If a pitcher can throw off-speed for a strike, he will often lead with it (not always as to create a pattern, but often enough to keep good hitters from attacking first pitch FB).  He also disrupts patterns in other instances as well, throwing FB's in off-speed counts and vice versa.  You have to have kids that can execute.  Also, you don't want to use this strategy for typical bottom-of-the-order hitters who can't catch up to decent FB's.

Sometimes, with an aggressive free-swinger, he will lead with off-speed that starts in the zone and drops out.  If the hitter doesn't bite, he puts his P in a hole, which makes me cringe a bit, but I can't argue with his historical success.  Again, you have to have a P that has the control to recover. 

 

Another strategy he uses on occasion is to go upstairs with FB when ahead 0-2 instead of down and away with FB or breaking ball.  This also makes me nervous and the jury is still out for me on this strategy as I have seen mixed results.  Some P's can hit that spot well and some struggle with throwing where they have always been taught to stay away from.  When executed, it definitely changes the batters eye for the next pitch. 

 

There is no doubt that opposing hitters step into the box against us with less-than-usual confidence because they can't use their traditional thought process on what pitch is coming.  And, yes, when using off-speed a bit more and in unpredictable counts, it does make the FB a bit more "sneaky quick" even when it doesn't have much velo.

 

Our primary P's for the last three years are all healthy and throwing FB's with good velo, either at the next level or coming back with us.  We use off-speed a bit more often than most but not to the extent where a well-located FB is not the focus.

 

Now, the thing that concerns me with your OP is your plan to use a "steady diet" of off-speed.  The previous coach at our school killed a few arms by throwing CB after CB after CB.  Somewhat affective with hitters but NOT GOOD for the kids.  As others have said, continue to develop proper mechanics and build velo with the younger P's.  A "pitch backwards" strategy can work but don't take it to the extreme where it hinders development or puts arms in harms way.

I hear this often here. I'm sorry, but it makes no sense.  You 'develop' in BP and in the off-season.  At game time, you get people out any way you can.  Throwing 20 more FB in a game won't make your FB any faster.

 

Velocity is a function of mass and technique.  You can't fix either of those in a game.

I don't know the answer as it is multifaceted but I have seen some very very good hitting teams both in college and HS get all wrapped up around themselves if they face a good off speed pitcher. I can't count how many times I have seen a kid warming up and be thinking to myself this kid is going to get crucified and sitting there watching the whole game watching roll overs and miss hits and wondering why the heck can't they stay back and hit it. It happens every year not sure you could do it for a whole season with a full staff, but I know it works from time to time against good FB hitting teams.  

Clearly you were in attendance at many of my kid's 14U travel team games.

 

Coach, this is not "pitching backwards."  At least this not how I have coached it for a few decades.  I want to use the curve-ball and a coach's hitting philosophy against them.  When I became the head coach at my school, we had a pitching staff that couldn't break a pane of glass.  In fact, I asked the "ace" I inherited about his pitches.  He said that he had 3 pitches.  A curve that broke this way, a curve that broke that way and then, naturally, his curve.  I asked him about the FB.  He said he never thew one and told me that if he did, it would get killed.  I told him that he now had a FB, Curve and Change.  I'd see about a slider.  I had one kid who said he could locate a FB.  Long story short, we won 25 games that year and lost in the sectionals.  They all learned 3 or 4 pitches and located.  You just have to have a plan and make them believe in the plan.

 

So, #3 hitter up.  Coach has told #3 to drive the FB and take the Curve.  !st pitch curve for a strike.  They will take it most of the time.  You're ahead now.  So, depending upon the hitter, and you have to have a catcher who can relate valuable info to you, you now locate your FB.  I like to throw it at their hands.  Ball one.  Now, Change.  If for a strike, they will swing and foul it off.  Now, locate FB low and away or curve.  You have to call pitches and teach your catch how to call pitches with a hitter's mindset.  Use that against the hitter.  #3 might see 1st pitch curve second times around as well.  Now, he knows what is coming in that 3rd AB,  So, FB at his hands or even in more to put him off the plate.  Curve away next pitch.  I taught the curve to all of my pitchers at all levels.  I didn't trust any other coach to do so.  I believe that how I teach it is safe for the pitcher and we get 12-6 break for most but depending upon arm slot.  My "curve, curve, curve" pitcher my 1st year went 10-0 and pitched in college.  He developed a serviceable FB and was not afraid to throw in and let the heart of the lineup drive pitches out of the park foul. He pitched for 4 years and had a great career.  

 

Oh, when I taught my pitchers to "pitch backwards," take a count like 2-0.  Hitter is sitting on a FB.  So, throw the change.  You'd be surprised how often they swing at it and hit a nice ground ball to SS.  Again, for me, "pitching backwards" is using the hitter's mindset against them.   

Agree with Sultan, BOF, and others.  Regarding OP, pitching backwards is a big part of pitching to my way of thinking and certainly a valid strategy.  If a guys FB is under par for a given level, he'd better be prepared to get guys out with location, change of pace, junk, and or the kitchen sink.  Obviously pitching backwards exclusively during a game will generally become ineffective quickly. Likewise, grooving a steady diet of fastballs, even good ones but especially subpar ones, will get you hit pretty quickly too.  "Hitting is timing, pitching is disrupting that timing".  Regarding a couple of the early responses above... The HS mound is certainly not a place for development, it's a time for performing.  And pitching backwards does USE a kids fastball... That would be the point in fact... setting up the FB. The original poster is a high school pitching coach; let's assume he knows as much or more about pitching as most of us pontificating on this board. I think his question centers more around getting a handle on the level of play that he's coming into and developing reasonable, competitive approaches to that.  Good coaches make the most of whatever they have to work with.

The problem is that I coach at a very small school and most kids that play sports play 3 varsity sports, leaving very little time to do any sort of training during the school year. I was hired on during this school year so I couldn't get any real off season throwing program developed for the kids. 

 

I'm mainly going to use this approach for my varsity team Juniors and Seniors, as there aren't any that will be going to the next level to play, just to try to get some wins to develop confidence in the program. The baseball culture has gone way down from when I went to school there. We would win 15-20 games a year when I played there to now they have won 6 games in the past two seasons. 

I'm with Bum. The way to develop the fastball is throw it. In high school when my son faced pitchers with reps for pitching backwards he sat on the stuff and drove the fastball up the middle. He hammered the hanging curve.

Question. If these kids have very little time to devote to baseball, and not real good at it (you cant be if they only won 6 games in two seasons), do you honestly think that your plan   throwing off speed stuff they don't work at,  is going to win games?

In other words, your plan is that you are just gonna let them throw junk and see what sticks and what doesn't so that you can win a few games and look good.

 

Do you really think this is going to bring  positive attention to this program?

Not sure why when asking for our opinion you didn't mention this in your first post.

Best of luck!

 

TPM has made a solid point.  Also, I would find the hardest-throwing freshmen and sophomores and develop them now.  The seniors have not dedicated themselves to the game and do not deserve to be in the starting lineup.  You send a message that this program is changing TODAY.  I would then have those freshmen and sophomores throw their fastball first (not work backwards) and counsel them to start a long-toss program and work with a solid pitching coach in the offseason.  I would encourage them to do plyometrics as well in the offseason.  Sure, you can't require them to do so, but if they show up the next year having not improved you go back to square one with another freshman or sophomore.  I would also put my best defenders and fastest guys in the field who are underclassmen.  You need to send a message to the team that the status quo is unacceptable.

BTW you need stop using the "small school" concept as an excuse.  #1 the program had won before, so why not now?  #2 you are going up against other small schools.  Do they have the same excuse?  #3 your players are focusing on other sports because the baseball program sucks. 

 

Look yourself in the mirror, suck in your gut, and do your job, coach.

Small school was used just to paint the picture.  We are a first year staff of alumni coaches and are trying to build the program back up the right way.

Coach Sampson, that is great.  There are a lot of resources here and so, take advantage of them.  I've had the pleasure of taking over a program that was on the way down and we turned things around. It will be a lot of fun and it sounds like you are doing this with friends.  Even better.  I was able to hire former players of mine from another school and so, those were great times. 

Coach Sampson, 

 

I also have no problem with your theory.  The fact is, not all players should pitch backward.  But if they can control their offspeed pitches, and their fastball is nothing spectacular, pitching backward can be a great weapon.

 

I think we get a lot of "non-coaches" on here who seem to believe that the curve is the work of the Devil, and your arm will fall off if you throw more than 15 of them in a game.  Nonsense.  And as noted by another poster, the kid is still going to practice his fastball, and throw it more often than his CB; both in practice and in games.

 

No, I wouldn't want a Freshman throwing all CB, but I'm sure that isn't your plan.  Again, for those who don't seem to get it, it means setting up the hitter a little differently depending on your pitcher's strength, and the hitter's strength.

 

I use my son as an example.  Always a pretty average pitcher, he did everything he could to increase his velocity (throwing programs, core, lifting, etc.) but his body just wasn't going to let him dominate anyone with a fastball.  However, he had a really nice changeup that ran in on hitters, a 12-6 curve and a splitfinger that darted down and away from RH.   He had almost as good as accuracy with his other pitches as he did with the FB.  Gues how we pitched him his Junior and Senior year?

 

Believe me, if he could have thrown 85, he would have.  A lot.  But the other 3 pitches didn't hurt his arm, and he still threw more FB in practices than CB or CH or Split.  What was the harm?

 

The other thing is, a lot of people have posted here about the harm of doing it.  I've never heard that throwing a Change was in any way detrimental to a pitcher's arm.  Are we all assuming that only CB's would be thrown in place of a FB?  That isn't what the original poster said.

Bum, I've read many, many posts by you that I really liked, but you really seem to have an unusual bee in your bonnet on this one....I don't get it.

TCB1 I am a big proponent of using the change over the curve ball since the arm motion is the same and feel that a good change will be more effective than a mediocre curve. I'm going to make sure that all of my underclassmen have a change up in their arsenal.

Having all of your pitchers having a change up in their arsenal is amusing. Many ml pitchers have trouble throwing change ups.
You make it sound so easy.  If it were everyone would be throwing them.
JMO

TPM,

 

I agree.  Harder to throw a good change than it is to throw a good curve.  BUT...if you have a kid who can throw a good change.  Wouldn't you want him to use it?  And if he had a mediocre FB, would you be afraid to have him pitch backward?

 

Or for that matter, if he had a good CB, and threw it correctly.  Would you have a problem if he pitches backward to 3 or 4 of the better hitters in the opponents lineup?  I mean, if a pitcher is going to throw 4 or 5 curves in an inning, does it matter WHEN he throws them? 

BTW no one referred to any pitch as bdeing harmful.
What amuses me is that some here think these players are going to throw STRIKES.   
Again if it were that easy everyone would play at the next level.

TPM as soon as I hit submit I knew it would come off that way. I should have said TRY to have them have it in their arsenal. My apologies.

How can they throw a good anything if they haven't won many games and don't  work on it in the off season.
Thats where Bums suggestion makes sense.
What happens on the days their curve or their change isn't working?  There is a huge expectation there they may not be able to fulfill.

And that's not fair.

I appreciate everyone's responses to the question I asked. I always love a good debate on philosophy. Feel like there needs to be a few pitchers of beer on the table during this.

TPM I am going just by stat logs from last year and what ive been told as I've yet to see any of them actually do anything baseball related. Looking at the pitching logs I would say that 90-95% of pitches thrown during games were fastballs and they got absolutely hammered. I have been told that when they did throw secondary pitches they were able to spot them fairly consistently.

TCB1, what part of what I said do you not get?  I'll gladly explain it to you.  If you disagree with my points say why, otherwise, your retort is simply a slam. 

TPM is spot on.  A changeup is the hardest pitch of all to master.  At the h.s. level, it is simply a BP fastball.  A curveball is essentially a changeup if you think about it and should be the secondary pitch in h.s., not the change. 

 

TCB1, any pitcher at any level should work on a solid fastball.  Throwing changeups and splitters in h.s. is a total waste of time from a development standpoint.  Did your son pitch past h.s. without a good fastball?  None will.

 

 

 

I'm in.

Poor placement.  Make your balls look like strikes and your strikes look like balls.  If they're getting hammered, this is not happening.

he must be very good to have mastered the change up curve, fastball and splitter in HS.

Aren't you supposed to make all of your pitches look the same coming from the same slot?

Doesn't that take lots of time to accomplish, or maybe you are saying the other teams aren't good either so they won't recognize this?

I just don't get how this plan will work by looking at HS stats paper.

 

BUM, I'm in also...wait I am work.....

I am all about development of a FB for most kids, particularly if you ever want to have a chance of moving on beyond HS, this is a must. 

 

....but

 

I am pretty sure if I was running a small HS program that was out of the major "baseball" centric areas I could teach a staff to throw curveballs and FB's only and win quite a few games, just because HSers have a hard time hitting CB's.  With some practice they are not that hard to throw, you can learn to throw a couple of versions one for strikes and the other not so much. If you started this as Freshmen you could have a pretty competitive staff by the time they get to be Sr's. Again if you are just trying to compete it could possibly a good strategy. 

 

BUM have one on me!

 

BTW Happy New Year also

A changeup is the hardest pitch of all to master.

How did you determine this? I'm pretty sure more changeups are thrown than curves in MLB. Also, each kid will have their own unique issues with various grips each year and at each level.

Throwing changeups and splitters in h.s. is a total waste of time from a development standpoint.

I think a HS player should be focused on helping his team first.  Especially the OP's pitchers.

Some of the posts here show precisely why “Rag arm” pitchers can very often have a great deal of success, and why “pitching backward” works so well. All pitchers aren’t the same with the same capabilities, so why try to make them all the same because of some idea that there’s only one way to develop?

 

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I guess I learned the game differently.  I demanded that my pitchers throw the change and curve for a strike and for a ball depending upon what we wanted to do with the hitter.  I demanded that they locate the FB.  I have to say that one key ingredient to changing the dynamics of my baseball program was that pitchers accomplished this.  In fact, as soon as the pitchers of that first season when I took over the program saw hitters talking to themselves as they took a seat, the more they all (all levels) bought in to the philosophy. 

 

BTWl, I don't agree that pitching backwards is for weak armed pitchers. It is for all pitchers.  Again, use the hitter's mindset against them.  We went from being one of the smallest school in the large class of our state's former 2 class system that never stood a chance to win regional and sectional championships to being called a "baseball factory" by the local media.  That is what pitching will do.