Pitching Backwards...

Coach_Sampson,

 

You’re the coach and wouldn’t have been hired if you were a dolt, so do what you have to in order to begin building a program. A lot of folks here can’t understand what its like not to have a HS program overflowing with great talent and a great history of success, as B25 can attest, many times people don’t realize that it takes time to get to that point.

 

By going to another coach, you’ve proved your intentions and should be congratulated. Unlike some who just can’t seem to believe another coach would give you the advice that coach did, I took the time to check on his credentials. GOODNESS! 27 years of coaching at the college level with a definite trend of getting better as time went on, tells me the guy might just possible know more than some folks here.

 

Now that I’ve given you the candy, I’m gonna have to shove a lemon atcha.

 

When you realized your pitchers had under powered fastballs but could spot their off speed pitches, how did you make that determination? If you were hired on this school year and most of the players play all 3 sports, when did you get the opportunity to do much evaluating?

 

I’d like you to do something else for me in order that I can better understand what you mean when you talk about such things. What do you mean by “spot” a pitch? As an example, someone might say its when a pitcher can throw a given pitch within 6” of his target more than 70% of the time.

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Sultan, the OP originally asked if pitching backwards was a good idea.  My responses have been a consistent no.  IMHO the coach should build his team with youth not waste his time having lazy seniors (lazy, because they did not work on their game in the offseason) throwing junk.  Of course a player should help his team first--that's a given--so that player should be ready to throw a fastball on opening day. 

 

Yes, the changeup is the hardest pitch to master.  If you read my earlier post, I stated this was from a "development standpoint".  A changeup in h.s. rarely translates to a quality pitch at the next level.  Can you throw sliders, knuckles, and changeups (BP fastballs) at the h.s. level and be successful?  Sure you can.  There was one LHP in Bum, Jr.'s home town that went something like 22-1 over his h.s. career with a sub-one ERA.  He threw seven different pitches, was smart, mastered the zone, and rarely walked anyone.  He played some college ball but was never drafted.  Why?  His fastball topped at 85.

Stats,

Coach S admits he has not seen them pitch, but only seen their stats.

Yes I agree, how can  a HS player that is not that good to begin with (the impression I get) locate their off speed? 

I am not doubting that the coach he asked doesn't have good credentials, but was he given all of the facts when this was first discussed, because we weren't.

And why does Coach S need our advice if he already was given good advice from someone more experienced than us?

I love it when someone comes here looking for advice and then we are told ours is no good because we don't coach the game.

FWIW, to throw a really good change up is pretty difficult to master and not done in a season.  Son had a pretty good change in HS, used as his out pitch along with a slurve.  He had a pretty good FB but he had a better sinker which he could and can do all sorts of stuff with.

Anyway, when he got to college, coach noticed that he was changing his slot for the CU, and tipping,  so his pitching coach went to work and it took quite a while to get it where no one knew it was coming. 

Why not just begin building a quality program now. People know it takes time, just look at many ML teams!  You can't state that you are going to make sure your players begin using change ups to be successful when you have no clue what works best for a particular pitcher.

My son is a righty, Bum's a lefty, do they throw the same stuff to get outs, of course not!  Do they both use their FB,s to get outs, of course.  Do each have to be over powering to achieve this, not at all.

 

 

Ain't that the truth!  I've got news for stats, I'm a member of HSBBW and as the father of a professional pitcher feel I can render my opinion on pitching anytime I want.

 

The reason pitching backwards works in COLLEGE is because the hitters must respect that fastball that can come at any time.  Good hitters prepare for the fastball and react to the offspeed pitches, not the other way around.  If these pitchers don't have a fastball, how is the junk pitch going to mess up their timing?  Sounds like they could have Chinese take- out in the batters box before deciding what to swing at.  Pitching backwards without a fastball to keep them honest makes no sense.

 

As TPM alludes to, if their stats are lousy, it means they probably can't find the strike zone.  Any hitter with a lick of sense would simply wait for the fastball that will eventually come once the pitcher is behind in the count.

Bum,

I remember in college on weekday games, the opposing team would often send in the guy that threw all off speed stuff to keep the guys used to hitting heat off balance.

But the second or third time around the guy had more walks because the guys knew to lay off the pitch.

Now the pitcher is trying to catch up with the slower FB and can only through it down the middle.

Batting practice.

Now I understand that most of these kids may never get to the next level, but who has determined that? 

 

I think the phrase here "pitching backwards" may mean different things to different folks.  When I hear that phrase, it simply means starting off "soft" be it change up, CB, etc....that is typically employed with a very aggressive swinging team, or middle lineup guys....rarely to bottom of order guys.  It does NOT preclude throwing fast balls, and should not imply throwing more off speed than FB.

 

Change ups are VERY difficult to learn, everyone I talk to claims a change up as part of their arsenal.  VERY few of them have I seen throw an actual "good" legitimate change up.  Most youth (including HS) pitchers that throw a change up, are actually throwing a "bad fastball".  A change up is an actual pitch (not a slow FB), and if thrown correctly (with fastball arm speed, and same arm slot), then it can be a devastating pitch....I just don't see them thrown well very often.....and is a very hard pitch to master.

 

Also, I am not sure about the success of throwing off speed pitches for strikes.  I teach to get ahead locating FB, and get batters to swing at balls for outs / strikeouts.  Yes, there are times you can get by throwing a "get me over CB, or maybe even change up" but those are rare.  Typically at the higher levels, you see the off speed pitches thrown either perfect (barely in the strike zone), or more likely outside of the strike zone.  With a change up, the pitch should be "perfect or in the dirt"...above that zone, they typically get hit, and don't come back.

 

Look at this past WS where Uehara was virtually unhittable...you saw many swing and misses, however virtually none of the change ups were in the zone.

 

Pitching backwards is a way of saying messing up a hitters timing / expectations...not strict diet of off speed.  A well located 2 seam, 4 seam, and good breaking pitch is all that is needed at the HS level to be successful.  And most important is that all pitches have the same arm speed, and release window...that is one of the most important things I don't see taught, and one of the biggest common denominators you see in elite pitching at the highest levels.

 

I hear a lot of folks talking about a 12-6 CB....tough to throw if you are not an over the top arm slot pitcher.  How does a high 3/4, or low 3/4 arm slot throw a 12-6 CB without changing his arm slot?  Once he changes his arm slot, guess what happens at the higher levels...the arm slot change tips off the hitter, and the ball gets crushed.  The  things required to have a successful CB IMO, is fastball arm speed, same release window as the FB, and good late break with depth to it....you can get that without a 12-6....in fact since most MLB pitchers are not over the top, you don't see many 12-6.  Kershaw likely has the best wipeout CB in the bigs right now, and it comes out with FB arms speed, but looks like a soap bubble going to the plate (up to 20MPH) slower than his FB...exceptional.  Others throw it hard, with a late (the bottom fell out) break.

 

my .02 cents

Velocity is only one aspect of the fastball.  There is also movement, placement, grip, rotation and sink.  My point is a pitcher needs to learn how to compete with a fastball first and foremost.  My advice to the OP is to develop his younger players and emphasize the fastball rather than waste time with under-performing seniors.  The younger players may not throw hard now but in a few years time will begin to throw harder and win with that fastball.. and then when the offspeed is mixed in they will be All State.

When Bum, Jr. set his state record with 21 strikeouts in a h.s. game, I think he threw no more than five or six curveballs and one changeup the whole game.  The boy was in a zone, hitting every corner, up down, in out.  That's what I'm talking about.  Oh, and he threw hard. 

Very nice.

 and others never said that the OP said he was going to have his pitchers throw just off speed but rather use those pitches (that they throw better than their FB, supposedly) to SET UP their FB.

I am not sure how you do this, do you go about making up your own set of rules as to what to throw in what count?  Does that make a lot of sense to do that for kids that really might be a bit clueless about pitch sequence to begin with.

I have seen my son do this a few times, but that usually may be in a special circumstance when you have to be real careful because of the score and   the guy is a beast at the plate or overdue.

I definitely agree that a well placed 4 seam and 2 seam (easier to learn and throw IMO than a CU  with a breaking pitch can get the job done for a HS player.

 

I am all about doing things that are right for the kids. Find players who are truly interested in getting better and have a desire to play the game because they love and appreciate it, if there are no such players, then drop the program.

I'll throw in a couple of thoughts here.  1st off, I agree with what Back foot slider says.  Very good post on pitching backwards.  Secondly, I think there may be some misunderstanding here because of a couple things stated in the OP.  The topic is pitching backwards, but there is another comment about feeding hitters with "steady diet of off speed pitches".  I think this is two different things.  Pitching backwards is fine in the right circumstances as Back foot states.  Throwing a steady diet of off speed pitches because the fastball isn't that good is a whole different philosophy. 

 

I think you can pitch backwards to a batter and throw more FBs than off speed.  But a steady diet of off speed is different.  Go ahead and pitch backwards to those hitters in the line up that you really need to mess their timing up.  But I wouldn't purposely try to throw a steady diet of off speed stuff to everyone in the order.  Two completely different philosophies.  IMHO.

It is very possible for pitchers to do their job, have a great outing and the team still lose.  If the team behind him can't do their job, doesn't matter what kind of outing the pitcher has.  Maybe the problem isn't coming from the mound.

 

How is the defensive side looking like Coach_Sampson?

 

Soylent,

I agree with most of the points you made in your post.  However, in the initial post, the OP did state specifically that his plan would include a steady diet of off speed pitches.  That's where the idea came from and part of what caused some of the back-and-forth clarifying the meaning of pitching backwards and likely was behind much of the concerns about getting away from FB's.

Lefthook... I really couldn't tell you how the defense looks. Besides the pitch charts... there's no defensive stats to speak of.

The coach came on here asking for opinions which we are freely offering.  If he already had what he feels is the answer to his problem, pitching backwards, then to solicit our feedback is merely shopping for answers.  I don't think he intended that-- I believe he'll geniunely consider our responses.  I sure hope so, because I believe a quick fix of having seniors "pitch backwards" is just that, backwards.  Now that we have learned he is a first year coach, it is the perfect opportunity to set the tone, get the pitchers thinking right (developing their fastballs as priority #1) and dumping (or at least sitting) the dead weight seniors who have nothing to offer but excuses.  As a first year coach I would find the stronest-armed underclassmen and build a program over time rather than worry about putting out fires.

 

So correct.  I wish I knew this early on when Bum, Jr. was in h.s. so I didn't waste my time worrying about whether it was "good enough" for the next level.  H.S. changeup are so hard to master because they must be thrown from the same arm slot, as you mention, and in large part are worthless because the typical h.s. pitcher doesn't throw their FB hard enough (and, by extension, the changeup fast enough).  Thus, the typical change in h.s. is a BP fastball thrown ineffectively from a different arm slot, affecting repeatable mechanics, and doesn't have the velocity to create the type of spin necessary.

 

Bum, Jr. didn't master his change until his junior year in college.  Now it fades and sinks and creates serious issues for the hitters.  Better yet, he learned a REAL changeup which doesn't happen until post-h.s.  For any serious pitch with a chance to go to the next level, concentrate on the fastball first and a solid breaking pitch.  Everything else can be added later.

 

One of the themes that has come up in this thread repeatedly is development for "the next level".  Having coached  13U  and 14U travel teams during recent years, I've used that phrase a lot when talking about getting players ready to play in HS. 

 

Once kids are in HS, some will still have their eyes on "the next level."    But most will not, or, if they do, they will never get there.

 

From another thread:

 

Little League- 2 million players

High school- 455,000 players

College- 25,000 players

Drafted- 1,500 players

MLB- 750 players

 

 

So for the vast majority of HS players, HS varsity ball is not only "the next level" , it's the last level.  You win now, or you don't.  Maybe a HS change-up is garbage. Maybe a steady diet of junk is junk.  Maybe making up your own rules about pitch sequences (wish I know where those were written BTW) is bogus.  But this forum is numerically quite skewed toward the elite player headed for a scholly or the pros, or at least the parent of that player.  The real world is skewed the other way.  For most players HS ball is the end of the baseball road, their last days of competitive baseball.  I say Coach Sampson owes it to his players and himself to pitch backwards, forwards, or sideways - whatever it takes to win some games and have some fun playing baseball.

 

Now I don't mean to say that you don't develop the kids who are ready for it.  You work with each kid according to his potential, all of his potential, not just in baseball.  I was talking to a local HS coach recently.  His teams have done pretty poorly, and I think he knows that it's going to continue that way.  Too many so__ar players at his school, frankly.  But though he hasn't won too many games, he's got a few grads playing college ball; more importantly, every one of the kids who graduated from his program over the past 2 years is currently in college.  Now that's a good HS coach, in my book.

I agree, but the OP is a coach who must fix the program which hasn't been winning.  This isn't about worrying about seniors who have been dogging it for four years.  This is a long-term fix FOR THE PROGRAM, not a short-term bandage.  Fastball first is the best approach at any level.

 

The underclassmen need to get it in their head how baseball is played.  Fastball first, foremost, AMEN.  Teach them now, and they'll work at it and you'll build a program in a few years.  Play along each year, throw junk with each new crop of seniors, and the problem remains systemic. 

 

What is the first step in the scientific method?  Define the Problem.  The problem is lack of talent.  You've got a crop of bad seniors.  So work with the others.

 

And for sure, those underclassmen you can help now will be part of the next group that have no chance to play on.  The OP Coach's duty and responsibility is to the program and those kids, not the seniors who fancy themselves 3-sport stars.

 

Fair points Bum, except the OP didn't say anything disparaging about his kids.  He never said they were lazy, which has been assumed by some, or that they fancy themselves 3 sports stars. They might be. Or they might just be un-athletic kids playing for a very small school, perhaps without much good coaching.  All we know is that they do not throw hard at this point.

I told myself to bow out of this discussion and so, this will be my last post in this thread. I do not agree with some of the posts here regarding the seniors.  Some players have never been taught how to win.  I won with seniors that had never won and against the best programs in the State of Illinois.  That senior pitcher I referenced in my first post beat the reigning State Champs when we played them.  That same team (reigning state champs) went on to the championship game again in the large school division.  Per the change etc. I disagree with the notion presented that a HS pitcher can't throw the change etc. for location and strikes along with other pitches.  I refused to allow my pitchers to settle for less.  The vast majority of my players went on to college including my pitchers. Many of those kids eventually played professionally. 

 

Per the 3 sports athletes, take a small school like where I teach and you'll likely find many 3 sport athletes.  One of my 3 sport athletes was offered scholarships for football and baseball in the SEC and Big Ten.  He blew it in there 92mph but I only threw him if we had a day off the next day.  He was my SS.  He was drafted by the Red Sox but tore his Achilles tendon his senior year of college. 

 

Well, like I said, I'll bug out.  Coach Sampson, if you want to know anything that we did or see some of my stuff, send me a dialog and will discuss some stuff that might help. 

 

Edited to add:  Coach Sampson, if you are at a small school, let me strongly advise you to not demand that your players only play baseball.  You'll be out the door before you know it. 

And if they are seniors that don't throw hard they haven't been working at their game.  They are done.  They haven't been working at their game because the program sucks and they don't attach any importance to being ready for the season.  Send a message to all succeeding classes playing time will be based on current or projectible talent and reserved for those that make themselves ready.  Network with summer coaches who will help in that regard.  Build the program.  As for the small school excuse, re-read my earlier post.  The teams they compete against are also small schools with the same problem.

Coach B25, I did not imply the coach demand they play baseball only.  Just be ready to play baseball and not use playing the other sports as an excuse.  I had plenty of friends whose kids went on to play professional baseball that were three sport stars.  It was harder for them to get ready for baseball, but they found a way.

Green Solvent,

This is what we do here, especially in the off season.

I have already offered my opinion, now I have a question for you.

How fair is it to judge a pitcher by the stats kept by someone who probably isn't relaly that good at taking stats?

My son is a sinker guy, he relies on more hits for outs than swing and misses. By looking at his HS stats, you would have thought he was not really that good.  Truth of the matter is and you know, that guys that hit ground balls are at the mercy of the defense. Op stats he has no stats for defense.

Do before it is determined that the pitchers didn't do well with their FB, isn't it fair just to wait until you see firsthand what is going on?

The reason I stated about dissolving the team, is because the picture painted is that these kids really don't care.  I am not the only one who has come up with that conclusion!

Someone posted for most kids high school is the end of the road. The coach who took over my son's high school program took over a history of 17 losing seasons out of 20. Only a handful played college ball.

 

It's now a winning program. They have had winning seasons each of the last five years with two conference titles, two seconds and a third. He told the players he only wanted players who believed they could play at the next level. He talked about the sacrifice it would take. Not every player has gone on to college ball. But the number is higher than 50%. When a new coach comes in he has to set expectations, not play to past results.

 

I don't believe teachering seniors to pitch backwards is setting expectations. Its accepting players haven't done what's necessary to succeed.

Some of the 'advice' on this thread is outrageous and unserious.

 

Screw the seniors, because, well just because.

 

Close down the baseball program.

 

Seriously, people. 

I would be curious what Coach Sampson thinks of all of this?

TPM,

 

I agree with you... this is definitely what you tend to do here.

 

Regarding stats, I won't speak for the OP (who I'm guessing is wondering how his simple pitching post turned into such a can of worms) but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not judging his staff entirely from last season's stats.  Of course he will take a first hand look as soon as he can.  The stats are just the best he has to go on at the moment... And just a rough indication of how guys performed last season.   But why do you assume that the stats weren't kept accurately?  Maybe they were kept by an expert... Maybe by someone who didn't know what they were doing at all... Probably something in between.  But why assume... and then offer unconditional feedback based on that assumption being 100% correct?  Why not simply make the point that "stats can be deceiving", and leave it at that?

 

Likewise, why assume that the current returning roster is made up of "kids who don't care"?  I didn't read that from what the coach said.  Maybe it's just a group of guys who haven't had better training, or simply have avg but not exceptional abilities.  Maybe the coach can help some of these guys take their games up a notch.  Who knows, you may be right that they're all a bunch of "clueless" dregs... But you might be wrong.  Whatever the case, it's up to the coach to work with the guys he's got and figure out ways to help the TEAM improve.  This as opposed to plowing the field under.

Soylent, I am a big fan of yours and have loved your posts.  I believe you have been one of the best additions to HSBBW in recent years.  I really mean that.  We can't all agree on a subject (why should we?) but there is one common theme:  We are all trying to help the OP. 

 

TPM is one tough lady.  She has had her detractors over the years but not me.  I admire her for being a mom that has immersed herself into all things baseball.  She has raised a great kid who ended up being drafted in the second round and except for injuries would be in the show.  She has tremendous knowledge of the game, recruiting, and the college and professional baseball experiences and I, for one, have learned a great deal from her.  Although she may come across to you as uncaring, that is far from the truth.  In fact she, like I, love this game so much we wonder sometimes why sometimes people are so thinned-skinned.  Maybe I'm a tough cookie too, but all I can say is tough love is what kids respond to.  Bum, Jr. was counseled by me, and sometimes I had to get into his face to get his head straight, but I also hugged him and told him I loved him every day, and he knows that.  He's my best buddy and an absolutely fantastic son who has done all the right things both on and off the baseball field.  

 

You may do things differently or maybe the same, I don't know.  But both TPM and I have learned enough from our sons successes and setbacks to know that coddling them and telling them what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear is doing them a disservice.  Perhaps I am out of line speaking on behalf of TPM, but I will tell you right now she may be a tough lady but an honorable one.  We actually do care about the OP's problem that's why we take the time to post.

 

BTW, Soylent, I do agree with your earlier post that pitching backwards is situational.  Every pitcher adjusts during a game and incorporates it as a tactic depending on the hitter, the inning, and the runners on.  But it cannot be a game strategy which is suggested by the OP.

 

This is why I make the following suggestion to the OP....develop a really good catcher and teach him how to handle a pitching staff...to include working in the "pitching backwards"....situationally as needed

 

In an event, you have your hands full taking over a program, you will have to work through a lot of trial and error for sure.   Look forward to hearing how things go, hope you stick around and let us know

I'm just taking it all in. This is just something that I was kicking around as an idea to try to win some games this year only. This incoming freshman class shows a lot of promise and have want. 

 

 

This "Can of Worms" is actually great. I always enjoy hearing everyone's opinions about topics and I'm glad that I could, as a new member, facilitate such a passionate debate on this site. As for the stats... I have no clue who kept them so I can only use them as a rough outline for performance.

Soylent.. all is well here, too.  I really appreciate your input.  I can tell you are intelligent and have a lot to offer the HSBBW community.  Maybe sometimes us "Old Timers" get a bit cranky but we mean the best.

 

And Coach, I too wish you the best on the upcoming season.

The pitcher's job is to keep the hitters off balance and to get outs.  Pitching "backwards" should be used based on the situation (aggressiveness of the batter/team & the ability of the pitcher to command his off-speed pitches).  Most of us agree that a good fastball is arguably the best pitch, but lets not forget that the most important pitch is Strike One.  It's much easier to pitch when you're ahead regardless of your fastball velocity.

 

Best of luck this season, Coach Sampson.  You sound like a coach that truly wants to make a difference.  I'm assuming that you're at a small private school based on the number of players participating in three sports?  If that's the case you're obviously going to have a short amount of time to work with your team, which makes things difficult...but not impossible.  Please keep us updated on their progress as the season approaches. 

BTW, I had skimmed through this thread and missed an excellent post from Back foot slider who hit the nail on the head. 

Coach do keep us informed with how things are going and working out. We are all here for our love of baseball and it is great to get HS coaches perspective and experience. Plus....well.... I for one just love to hear baseball stories. As a former HSer parent (now playing in college BTW)  we got tidbits of what goes (went) on from our kids, but always through filters. 

 

 

Coach,

As far as the can of worms, I guess you realize this isn't just your everyday baseball website.  FWIW, I hope that we made you think about your original post.

 

Every program my son has ever been in (and that includes pro), there has been a philosophy that is taught that the players have to buy into and accept in order for the program to work. When you have no philosophy, success seems to be allusive, no matter what you do. Develop a true plan.

I understand what you want to accomplish, you want to win. But while trying to do so,  do what is best for each individual player.  I think you understand what I am saying.

 

If you are expecting me to kiss up, it's never gonna happen.

I think one of the things that Bum touched upon was correct, in order to achieve success in baseball (and that probably is with anything) you need to be truthful and tell them what they need to hear not what they want  to hear. Works here to no matter if you are a parent, coach or player.

 

There's no coddling in baseball!

 

JMO

 

I have seen lots of high school pitchers (especially at small schools as described here) who  cannot throw a fastball that does not get crushed by even average hitters. No matter how hard they work on it, this will always be the case.  However, some of these pitchers are remarkably good at throwing curve balls (and other assorted junk) for strikes. Almost all of it is far, far below hitting speed. Sometimes, I wonder how these pitches even make it to home plate. The very best hitters they face can't hit for a month after hitting off these guys. If these pitchers are to play at a higher level (and not many of them do) typically it will be at a lower level D3 or NAIA school.

 

If that kid wants to pitch backwards and it works and I am the coach, he can pitch backward on every pitch and I will be in full support. (And on the rare occasion that kid mixes a fastball into this menu of curves and other assorted junk pitches, it tends to work amazingly well, but only when it is a truly rare pitch).