pitching effectiveness

Originally Posted by rynoattack:

I personally put restock in WHIP than any other pitching stat.  If your WHIP is low, your other numbers are likely to be very good.

I like WHIP too, but the question was about pitching “EFFECTIVENESS”. How does a pitcher’s WHIP show that? I don’t get why there’s no one willing to try to define what effective means for a pitcher. I’ve said I believe its pitches per runner or pitches per run. My thinking is, if they don’t get on they can’t score, or if they do score, you want it to be as least often as possible.

No one can define it because there are so many ways you can evaluate a pitcher.

Are you talking HS?

ERA, wins, strike outs, walks is most likely the guideline for most.

Are you talking college?

Wins, ERA, strike outs gets you all american honors.

Are you asking MLB?

Wins, ERA, WHIP, WPA, FIP, BAPIP, etc and luck.

Was is it that you want people to do or is this just another, lets argue the fine points of what makes the pitcher effective when there are many ways one can measure that depending on what level you are looking at.

My point about WHIP is that if a pitcher has a great WHIP, they are probably effective. 

Originally Posted by rynoattack:

My point about WHIP is that if a pitcher has a great WHIP, they are probably effective. 

I’m not disagreeing at all. But you could say the same for any stat that’s “great”. If a pitcher has great ERA, k/bb ratio, gb/fb ratio, strike percentage, opponent OPS, or just about anything, he’d PROBABLY be effective. So those things are indications of effectiveness, but do any of them really show effectiveness?

IMHO, until effectiveness is defined, it can’t be measured. I define it as making it the most difficult for the other team to score or get on base.

For whatever it is worth ...I was talking statistics in the context of professional baseball. 

At the amateur level I think the numbers are a consideration but the measurables, projectablitly and what does the kid have in his character, heart and mental toughness are bigger factors when offers are made for scholorships and drafting. 

By the time players are working purely off of the numbers they have established all of these other things for years and they are no longer in doubt.  The question really becomes how much more is left.  For example 28 year old power pitcher vs. 31 year old player with similar numbers.  If you are going to pony up a 7 year 9 figure deal the 28 year old guy is the safer bet to get your money's worth.

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

For whatever it is worth ...I was talking statistics in the context of professional baseball. 

At the amateur level I think the numbers are a consideration but the measurables, projectablitly and what does the kid have in his character, heart and mental toughness are bigger factors when offers are made for scholorships and drafting. 

By the time players are working purely off of the numbers they have established all of these other things for years and they are no longer in doubt.  The question really becomes how much more is left.  For example 28 year old power pitcher vs. 31 year old player with similar numbers.  If you are going to pony up a 7 year 9 figure deal the 28 year old guy is the safer bet to get your money's worth.

I understand that, and in that context, I think you’re spot on. But at the amateur level, aren’t there any reasons to use the numbers other than ‘ships and drafting? After all, even on the CWS champion, there aren’t likely more than a few players who’ll show up in pro ball, and for HS players, there’s likely not more than a few who will be getting a ship or drafted. So should numbers be kept only on those players with a chance of playing at a higher level?

I like WHIP as well,,but I also like the ball/ strikes ratio..i think that is indicative of a pitcher that puts pressure on the hitters ..for example ..in the above example 1.25 balls and 2.55 strikes per batter.his average pitch count is 4 per batter.and is also indicative of STAYING ahead of the batter.

This thing really has been about 5 threads:

1. OP - What do these new stats mean?
2. What defines a pitchers effectiveness
3. What stats do you use for determining offensive and defensive effectiveness
4. What stats are important
5. Role of stats in decision making.  Professional vs. Amatuer

Baseball is stats and stats are baseball.  They are information that will be used or ignored by people in the game to whatever extent suits them. 

My view since it has been asked for is this - If there is a solid scorer/data gather available to any coach he'd be foolish to disregard any information that would allow him to spot something in the team or individual results that he can work to improve on.  The flip side is if the team manager doing the scoring is some sophomore that doesn't know a Fielders Choice from an SAC - the data's value plummets. 

The short answer is - Information is information.  Source should always be considered and a value judgement made on it.  Ignoring information altogether is almost always a bad way to go. 

In order to avoid absolute statements one should not forget that occasionally: Ignorance is bliss. 

One of the main ingredients in being effective and/or successful is LUCK! Statistics seldom cover luck completely.

Pitcher A has a defense that covers much more ground and makes plays that Pitcher B doesn't have. Hits scored for one team, outs scored for the other team, on the same exact ball in play.

Pitcher A has a great catcher, doesn't allow anything to get past him.  Pitcher B doesn't have as good a catcher.  Pitcher B has more wild pitches, and there are more PB's, so the pitcher might be less likely to use certain breaking balls at times.

Pitcher A is pitching in a game where the umpire has a very big strike zone.

Pitcher B is pitching in a game where the umpire has an extremely small strike zone.  

Pitcher A gives up no infield hits in a game, Pitcher B gives up 4 infield hits.

So in many ways pitching effectiveness involves all nine players. The umpire, the field, the weather, and other things. And these things also lead to higher or lower pitch counts.

These things can have a big impact on how effective a pitcher is on any given day.  They  can change what the statistics look like.  Even normal stats that everyone uses like ERA, WHIP, hits, K, BB, etc.  So in the end, whatever the stats look like, they can't always tell the whole story.

However, the stats become a better indicator over a long period of time.  Still need to consider the team into the equation.  For example, how much has the KC Royals defense helped their pitchers stats in the playoffs?  How much does Molina mean to the St.L. Cardinal pitchers?  The lower the level the more likely these differences are greater from one team to the next.

So stats are great, but to tell the whole story, every possible ingredient would have to be entered.

Maybe the most revealing stat after all other stats were looked at would be % of hard hit balls.  

So in many ways pitching effectiveness involves all nine players. The umpire, the field, the weather, and other things. And these things also lead to higher or lower pitch counts.

However, the stats become a better indicator over a long period of time

Totally agree