Pitching Evaluations

quote:

CASon's arm action is identical to that of his fastball on his change and not surprisingly as a result he throws a relatively firm circle change with only about a 6 mph differential.

I know exactly what you mean! Recently in a game, I was discussing with the other coaches what makes a good chang-up work. I told them that it needs to be closer to fastball velocity. For my son that is anywhere from about 3-7 mph slower. A good change-up is even hard to tell from a fastball sometimes just watching it. I have had people tell me after games that changing sons fastball speed was really deceptive and key to the game. I told them that it was because it wasn't really a slow fastball but really a nasty change. I am a firm believer in bringing back the change-up to baseball fields. Kids now days rely too much on breaking pitches that while deceptive in their own right, they lack the finesse and deception of the change. It is not very often when you see a good change-up pitcher throw so deceptively that you have to look at the radar readins just to ensure the mind that it really was the change and not just a slow fastball!

Sometimes I think the art of the change-up is a dying breed. Fewer pitchers want to throw it hard enough to mimick their fastball better. They want to slow it up too much, which works for poor quality hitters but dosen't get much bites with the better hitters.

Fastball velocity is deceptive also from pitcher to pitcher. I don't care who you are, it is dang hard to tell the velocity from one pitcher to another without a gun. Guys who throw more over the top often look like they are really bringing the heat because of all the extra height and downward movement coupled with a giant arm rotation. Their balls also appear to go faster because they do not dip as much on the way to the plate.

My son has a deceptive low 3/4 delivery without a lot of body action, the arm at the very last slings into tight compact smooth acceleration delivering the pitch. His fastball at times does not seem very fast until someone finally swings and misses and gives some relation to the speed. On his team there is another pitcher with a herky-jerky explosiveness and it appears like he is pitching another 5 mph, but the gun doesn't lie and he is no faster, it just appears faster because of all the explosive body language put into the pitch.

CAdad,
Isn't part of a proper evaluation using a radar gun?
If I sent my son to an evaluation camp, would sure like to know that was part of the evaluation.
It's very hard to tell, IMO, especially with a pitcher with a "live" arm at exactly what speed they are throwing, but I would assume that might be easier for a scout or coach with a trained eye and years of experience. Regardless, I am going to assume that a coach should be able to tell a change up from a curve ball from a fast ball. All pitches should come from the same slot with the same arm action, the difference is the grip and wrist action, correct?
FWIW, my understanding is that a good and effective CU should be around 8-12 mph less than the FB velocity, the CB and slider closer to FB velocity.
The CU is disappearing because it is a hard pitch to learn and needs practice, may not be as effective in the earlier years than the CB but safer. I have read that pro players come not even knowing how to throw it properly.
I always beleived that my son's best pitch was his change up, as he moved up in levels, it was thrown less and less as his velocity increased.

I don't understand that philososphy, but then what do I know.

A radar gun is not necessarily needed to make a proper evaluation of a pitcher---many coaches and scouts do not even carry a radar gun

TR,
No it isn't necessarily needed. I've seen other coaches who didn't use a gun and some of them are very well respected and CASon got an evaluation from one of those coaches a year or two ago that was right on the mark. There are a lot more things to look at than velocity, but velocity is a piece of the puzzle and one is more likely to get that piece right with a gun. If my job depends on getting the best players I can I'm going to use every tool that I can to identify them and that includes a gun.

I really wasn't worried about the fastball velocity as he wasn't particularly trying to throw hard that day. I was just concerned that they might not have recognized the change. It is also very possible that they did and just didn't mention it.

TPM,
The rule of thumb for the change is 10 mph less than the fastball velocity, but that is going to vary depending on if the fastball is a 2 or 4 seamer, etc. and from the few MLB pitchers I've looked at on gameday the change is usually around 6 to 8 mph different. Typically the slider is similar in velocity to the change and the curve is slower than the change.
Also, we didn't know they were doing evaluations until we got there so that wasn't an issue. I'd prefer to see a coach using a gun, but even if he doesn't it can still be a valid evaluation.

CADad

Many coaches use a stopwatch to get the velocity

Many coaches can know the velocity bywatching the pitcher

Which gun do want them to use if they use a gun?

I am not too sure about using a stop watch to get velocity but I have developed a pretty good eye and can I am usually within 2-3 MPH of the gun on velocities but normally in the range that we see pitching weekly. (70-85) once they start throwing above 85 I have a hard time differentiating. (I guess this is because we don't see many kids above 85)

I have also found that I can tell velocities from behind the plate or just off to the side, because this is where I normally sit. Once I get off to the side near 90 degreesI have a hard time since I don't see pitchers from this angle very often.

I could see that a scout who has many years of experience could tell what a pitcher was throwing within a range. I agree that an experienced coach or scout can evalauate a player without a gun. Once they become serious I imagine the gun would come out at some point. When we have been at games where scouts are REALLY serious about a player they all have guns.

I have seen 3 90+ kids this year and although I had my gun, visually I could tell they were throwing HARD.

TR,
Nobody trusts 40 yd times based on a stopwatch. That's why some people teach the kids how to cheat (anticipate the signal and go just before it so the timer can't react quickly enough) on the start in the 40 and the 60. How can you trust pitching velocities based on a stopwatch? I've seen big variations in pop times depending on the bias of the person using the stopwatch. I would expect most coaches to be relatively unbiased but if you really like a kid the button is going to get pressed just a moment sooner.

Obviously the Stalker is the preferred gun but it doesn't matter which gun as long as it is a quality gun and they are using the same type of gun, preferrably the same gun, each time.

Let's face it when people insist on not using a gun ego can be a factor in that decision.

On the other hand I'm OK with the coach who really doesn't care about the exact velocity and perhaps doesn't want to know it because he wants to judge the pitcher based on how well he pitches and is perfectly willing to be off by 2 or 3 mph on either side as far as velocity. That's a legitimate approach.

When I go to see a kid for the first time I always use a stopwatch, mostly because I'm watching from down the lines. After six to eight pitches you get a good idea of the FB and OS times. If I get a few in the high 80's or low 90's I break out the gun on a follow up. If they are under that you look at movement and location anyway. I've been pretty accurate with the watch and it makes little difference when they throw under 84.

Ozone,
Sounds like a pretty good approach to me.

BOF and I have something in common.

I’m actually pretty decent at guessing the velocity using eye sight. However, would not rely on anything other than a radar gun. Actually these days I would only rely on a Stalker.

Years ago I tried the stop watch method. I failed! A friend of mine who was a crosschecker for the Twins told me he could stop watch pitchers to get velocity. We had a few real good laughs testing his accuracy. Kid would throw the pitch, we would get 82 on our gun… He would tell us he got 89 by the stop watch. We would ask him if it looked like 89 and he’d say… No way and laugh!

It’s very common for two scouts to be off 3 or 4 hundreths on catchers pop times. Even common to be off that much or more on the 60. In fact, that (.3-.4 difference) is considered very accurate either way.

There is a site that converts stop watch time to pitching velocity. http://www.csgnetwork.com/baseballpitchspdcalc.html

Couple of problems… it bases the velocity at 60.6 feet. I don’t know any pitcher who throws the entire 60.6 feet. But even if they did - .49 = 84 mph on the gun - .45 = 92 mph on the gun. 4 one hundredths off means a difference of 8 mph in the above case.

The other thing is that a stopwatch even if it was perfectly accurate is measuring average speed and not release velocity. The standard by which pitchers are compared is release velocity. Depending on spin, etc. two pitchers could have the same average velocities and different release velocities.

PG, You can change the distance on that but it still measures an average velocity.

My son was timed a couple times in the 40. He looked to start early the first time and looked to run faster the second time. His first time was pretty good for a young NFL running back. His second time was close to in line with where we think he probably is in the 60 these days and about .2 seconds slower than the first time.

I have to admit I'm not very good at judging velocities by eye. I was at a college camp over the weekend and the first pitcher looked like he was throwing hard. He was pretty consistently 90 on their gun. The second or third pitcher looked to me like he was low to mid 80s. He was high 80s and may have touched 90. Knowing some of this school's pitchers they are a school which goes after pitchers based on their ability to pitch and not just on velocity but they were using a gun.

Interesting, possibly, for you pitchers Dads:

We never bring the "gun" to tournaments we attend---the PG events are taken care of by their official scorekeepers/notetakers---their reading is what counts not mine anyway--what they see is what goes into the evaluation-at others there enough coaches and scouts around that I will know the velocities and here too it is their numbers that count


The gun and velocity readings are just a part of the evaluation process