pitching lessons????

quote:

Originally posted by CoachBT9:
Do any of you give pitching lessons to the younger kids in your area? If so, what types of things do you teach?

I try to keep things extremely simple, especially with younger guys. I focus on teaching guys how to throw well first.

You can't pitch well if you don't throw well.

Once my guys know how to throw the right way, then I teach them how to pitch.

Here's an article that explains what I teach and how I teach it...
Sideways, Swing, Step, and Throw

Thank you very much. This is very helpful.

I also thank you for the "sideways" pitching link.

" Finally, as you throw the ball you never want to bring your PAS elbow above the level of your shoulders. Some people believe that the way to throw from a higher arm slot is to get the elbow up. The truth is that the way to throw from a higher arm slot is to tilt the shoulders, as Greg Maddux is doing in the photo below. That way the hand goes up but the PAS elbow always stays below the level of the shoulders. "

Huh ? Dangerous stuff here Chris. Encouraging young players to keep the throwing elbow below shoulder level isn't what many respected baseball people (ie Ripken) advocate. The rest of the piece is a nice expansion of the old T, step, throw.

I'll second that Yank.

Low elbow is dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Huh ? Dangerous stuff here Chris. Encouraging young players to keep the throwing elbow below shoulder level isn't what many respected baseball people (ie Ripken) advocate.

Telling people to get the elbow up above the level of the shoulders is at least inaccurate, if not dangerous, advice.

It is generally intended to raise the arm slot, but the reality is that it's physically impossible for most people to get the elbow above the level of the shoulders at the release point (due to the forces involved in a high-level throw). People who do manage to do this run the risk of a problem called impingement syndrome in their shoulder.

With all due respect to Mr. Ripken, if you look at clips and high speed film of high level players, you will see that to raise their arm slot they tilt their shoulders as Jeff Suppan is doing in the photo below. This allows them to release the ball higher but still keep their elbow below the level of the shoulders (the white line in the photo below).



This isn't to say that dropping the elbow isn't bad.

It is.

However, getting the elbow too high is just as bad.

The photos of Koufax, Gibson, and Maddux all make my point.

Notice the varying degrees of shoulder tilt and the corresponding difference in the height of the release point.

What you describe is right.I just feel applying terms this technical in the pen is a hair overboard, especially if what you said about the elbow getting higher then the shoulders is physically impossible. I agree with what you break down, IMO its just not how I would apply it in the pen. Its easier to relate the hieght of the elbow in terms of being horizonal and vertical. If you try to apply this based on being parallel with the shoulders tilt much would be lost in traslation...let me no if this dosnt make sense to you,...

TPG, give a young player your advice re: low elbow, I'd like to see if they would come away with positive results. While at some point the mechanics you take pains to describe bear themselves out, trying to "teach" arm slot sounds like a dicey proposition. The advice given by Ripken and many others is to have the throwing elbow at shoulder level in the power position. This is more of a feel thing than something to be analyzed by endless stills or better yet RVP'd to death. Every player will develop his own slot based on many factors, only one of which is what you describe as shoulder tilt.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
TPG, give a young player your advice re: low elbow, I'd like to see if they would come away with positive results. While at some point the mechanics you take pains to describe bear themselves out, trying to "teach" arm slot sounds like a dicey proposition. The advice given by Ripken and many others is to have the throwing elbow at shoulder level in the power position. This is more of a feel thing than something to be analyzed by endless stills or better yet RVP'd to death. Every player will develop his own slot based on many factors, only one of which is what you describe as shoulder tilt.

I don't teach people to keep the elbow low (because that can be equally bad). Instead, I just don't teach them to get the elbow high. In most cases (e.g. 80% to 90% of the time) the elbow ends up where it should be naturally.

Also, shoulder tilt is the only way for 95% of high level throwers to change their arm slots. This is because in a high level throw, the elbow is fully extended due to the forces involved.

I also think that elbow at shoulder level in the power position is potentially problematic advice. It's not what Greg Maddux does, for example.



I prefer that guys have their elbows just below the level of their shoulders, as Maddux is doing in the photo above.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
What you describe is right.I just feel applying terms this technical in the pen is a hair overboard, especially if what you said about the elbow getting higher then the shoulders is physically impossible. I agree with what you break down, IMO its just not how I would apply it in the pen.

I agree.

80 to 90% of the time the elbow will end up in the right place naturally. When I see guys with problems with their elbow position, it's usually because they were taught to do that.

My problem is with guys who teach "high elbow" when it really should be a non-teach for most kids.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Its easier to relate the hieght of the elbow in terms of being horizonal and vertical. If you try to apply this based on being parallel with the shoulders tilt much would be lost in traslation...let me no if this dosnt make sense to you,...

I hear you.

The problem is that the position of the elbow relative to the level of the shoulders is what really matters.

As I said above, I think that most kids would be better off if the height of the elbow was a non-teach and that coaches just taught shoulder tilt to achieve arm slot.

Painguy

quote:

The problem is that the position of the elbow relative to the level of the shoulders is what really matters.

quote:

but the reality is that it's physically impossible for most people to get the elbow above the level of the shoulders at the release point

I agree, but if getting the elbow above the shoulders is as you say then why would it be dangerous to teach keeping the elbow high. It is far more dangerous to carry a low elbow IMO. I have found that telling older pitchers to carry a high elbow is a good cue for them to stay in the same slot, where as with my 7 yr old I have to tell him to physically tilt his shoulders or he forgets. I dont disagree here, i just see it different. If a pitcher is maintaining his tilt consistently and starts to tire as a game wears on the first thing that usually happens is his elbow starts to drop a little and he may start getting under the ball and push it a little. IMO reminding him to keep his elbow up isnt detremental. I understand your break down and agree with the physical analysis of what really happens, but IMExp with pitchers they all need different cues to get them in the right position.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I agree, but if getting the elbow above the shoulders is as you say then why would it be dangerous to teach keeping the elbow high.

Roughly 5% of the prospects that I see have the elbow too high around the release point and run a significantly increased risk of Labrum problems.

I believe that having the elbow too high earlier on in the delivery can also be dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
It is far more dangerous to carry a low elbow IMO.

Depends what age you are talking about.

I agree that dropping the elbow is a problem with younger kids (e.g. 7-12). However, in my experience when you're talking about pro prospects high elbows are a much bigger problem than are low elbows (because the low elbow guys tend to not make it to the next level).

Since the thread is about younger kids... BTW, I never said the elbow should be above the shoulder as you implied in a previous post.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Huh ? Dangerous stuff here Chris. Encouraging young players to keep the throwing elbow below shoulder level isn't what many respected baseball people (ie Ripken) advocate.

I just went to the bookstore and found that the Ripken book is wrong when it comes to the arm slot.

On page 77 or 78, it shows the arm bent 90 degrees at the release point. This isn't physically possible for a good player older than 12 or so. Instead, the elbow is fully extended like you see in all the photos above.

The Bagnozzi book makes the same mistake.

Hope you don't take offense to some of us siding with Cal and Habyan on this one. Wouldn't you think while they were putting the book together Cal would have stepped in and said something to the effect; "Look Habes, I know you pitched in the bigs for a number of years but what your trying to show these kids is just not how it is done. If I am going to risk my name and reputation we need to make sure it is right. Maybe we should run this by one of them there self-proclaimed internet guru's"

TPG,

Do you actually know of anyone teaching the high elbow - especially any of the "gurus" out there? I believe N-y-m-a-n is all about arm action while House says the arm belongs to the pitcher so leave it alone.

Just curious because I can't honestly say I've ever heard a coach teach a high elbow. I've only heard coaches teach a "non-low" elbow.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Hope you don't take offense to some of us siding with Cal and Habyan on this one. Wouldn't you think while they were putting the book together Cal would have stepped in and said something to the effect; "Look Habes, I know you pitched in the bigs for a number of years but what your trying to show these kids is just not how it is done. If I am going to risk my name and reputation we need to make sure it is right. Maybe we should run this by one of them there self-proclaimed internet guru's"

I understand why you would doubt what I have to say, but the truth is that Ripken and Bagnozzi are wrong about this (but not alone).

To see that, just look at these photos. What is the angle of the elow? 90 degrees or fully extended?





What confuses people, and that leads to this misconception, is photos like this one of Gibson...



At this moment in time, Gibson's elbow is bent 90 degrees. However, once his shoulders stop rotating his elbow will extend those 90 degrees so that his arm is extended at the release point like this...



This process is only visible by going through video frame by frame or looking at high speed video.

ASMI has a great, but very large video clip, that shows this process in detail...

- ASMI High Speed Video

Those are all high elbow shots regardles of what the oposite side shoulder is doing. Your opposite shoulder does drop as you go forward. Just depends when the photo is snapped.
My son's doctor always repeats that BB is a high elbow sport. He is a co author of THe pitchers Edge with House and Ryan. The last time my son went for a check up he examined his mechanics and said keep the elbor up.

The video shows good elbow hight.
The elbows are high at goal post position.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
My son's doctor always repeats that BB is a high elbow sport.

That's true, as long as the high elbow is achieved by tilting the shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The video shows good elbow hight. The elbows are high at goal post position.

I disagree.

If you look at most major leaguers, 99% do not get their elbows nearly as high as the person in the video does. The only one who does do something that resembles what this guy does is Jae Seo.

It's certainly NOT what Maddux, Clemens, Ryan, Seaver, Koufax and other greats did.

The term high elbow refers to the goal post position .Throwing arm is cocked, sightink glove arm is extended forward forming a goal post like situation. Ir doesn't refer to the motion you are showing. Those elbows are all high on the throwing side and that has nothing to do with the glove side being tucked. Oviously the side tucks and drops as you go forward.

TPG you don't seem to grasp the concept of high elbow. Since my son's doctor has worked on many of the top ML pitchers I am following his advice. The video shows a good elow level which is at the goal post position.

One of the drills we were taught was to put a broom hanle through the arms at the goal post position and drive forward in your pitching motion. Doing this shows exactly like your photos as you drive forward.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The term high elbow refers to the goal post position .Throwing arm is cocked, sightink glove arm is extended forward forming a goal post like situation. Ir doesn't refer to the motion you are showing. Those elbows are all high on the throwing side and that has nothing to do with the glove side being tucked. Oviously the side tucks and drops as you go forward.

First, I don't think a goal post is the best image to use since it tends to work better if the glove side arm (or at least the glove side upper arm) points in the direction of the target. Very few pitchers come to anything close to the goal post position (Freddy Garcia and Andy Pettitte are some of the few).



Second, as the photo above shows, Greg Maddux doesn't come to the goal post position. Neither do Ryan, Clemens, or Seaver. When I'm scouting guys, I'm looking for the next Greg Maddux. That means I'm looking for Maddux's arm action, and this kid doesn't have it.

Third, I believe that if you do want to come to the goal post position, then your Pitching Arm Side elbow should still be at or below the level of the shoulder (ala Freddy Garcia). Otherwise you run the risk of an impingement injury.

Why are you showing me pictures of guys half way through their motion ? Way past the goal post position. I agree the term does not desribe the position fully but most people see what it means. Your pictures have already gone past the poirion. The guy in the video reaches the position and so do all the guys you mentioned. What does arm action have to do with high elbow.

quote:

ASMI has a great, but very large video clip, that shows this process in detail...

- ASMI High Speed Video

Interesting that you call the video great and then knock the guy.

TPG I am not sure we are talking 2 different languages. The guy after separating goes into the position as do all pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Why are you showing me pictures of guys half way through their motion ? Way past the goal post position. I agree the term does not desribe the position fully but most people see what it means. Your pictures have already gone past the poirion. The guy in the video reaches the position and so do all the guys you mentioned. What does arm action have to do with high elbow.

Give me a definition of the goal post position (or better yet a picture). What is the position of the forearms?

How about a frame reference or timestamp in the clip of Jeff Weaver below?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Interesting that you call the video great and then knock the guy.

The clip is great in that it's high speed film and you can see exactly what his arm does as his shoulders turn.

However, I don't think his mechanics are great.

Here's a link to a super slow motion clip of Jeff Weaver, whose mechanics are better (and fairly different)...

- Jeff Weaver Clip

The term was used by a pro scout and your video demonstates it. It is when the throwing arm is fully extended back and the glove is extended towards the target. As you start to throw your arms rise to get max force and counter force from the front glove arm. Watch your video. The landing leg is starting to slide forward. His elbows are at shoulder hight and should be no lower at that point. This applies also in LT as well. That is the high elbow point. The guys chest is straight at you the arms are extended and are bent in a L position. You will see the glove after pointing towards the target rises slightly hence the goal post look. Yes not a perfect goal post but the elbows at that point are as high or higher than the shoulders. At that point shoulders are parallel.

I like Weavers delivery here. He has a low hand break and bends forward. He still goes through the goal post position keeping his elbows high.
This is not a discussion about the glove hand going up or staying low but this clip shows high elbow position.

Painguy
Your right and wrong on this. Your right about the elbow being lower then the line drawn between the two shoulders. The only problem is that when refering to height everyone thinks up and down. The pictures of all the pitchers have their elbows higher then their shoulders in relation to the ground. I know tilt is the reason for the elbows height, but have you ever seen a pitcher not tilt? I cant recall any one other then side armers and submarine guys. Now, I have seen alot of pitchers carry their elbow to low. Its confusing to alot of people because your refering to height off of a line thats not horizonal.

quote:

Its confusing to alot of people because your refering to height off of a line thats not horizonal.

That is why the high elbow is when you are in the PG position. When a coach stops you at the GP position your shoulders are parallel. They adjust your arm at that point making sure the elbow is atleast as high as the parallel shoulders. I have seen 30-40 pro coaches break down a pitchers delivery and they teach step by step. One of the steps or positions is the GP position. Most like the glove hand higher than Weaver but that is another story.

Simply put TPG, the "power" position is not anywhere near the release point. The stills you are promoting are mostly near release, though it is impossible to tell as they are still photos with no common reference regarding position, angle, etc... Stills are are lot like statistics, you can make them say whatever fits your fancy. Since this thread was started for the youngsters I felt compelled to chime in as the info you were providing was at best confusing. I am a travel coach, approx 10 yrs of coaching experience. Was a 3 yr starter as a pitcher in HS, 3 hit the Brockville Bunnies in my last competitive game in a Legion Tourney. I only add this to give some perspective. I do not portend to have MLB connections nor do I have those aspirations (or delusions). I do care about young players and take offense to some of the "new age" **** that tries to creep in from time to time. If you must degrade someone else to sell your wares perhaps you should find a better product or line of _ _ _ _

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Simply put TPG, the "power" position is not anywhere near the release point. The stills you are promoting are mostly near release, though it is impossible to tell as they are still photos with no common reference regarding position, angle, etc... Stills are are lot like statistics, you can make them say whatever fits your fancy.

The photo of Maddux below shows him at his version of the power position (aka High Cocked position). His Pitching Arm Side forearm is vertical and his shoulders have not yet started to turn.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Since this thread was started for the youngsters I felt compelled to chime in as the info you were providing was at best confusing. I am a travel coach, approx 10 yrs of coaching experience. Was a 3 yr starter as a pitcher in HS, 3 hit the Brockville Bunnies in my last competitive game in a Legion Tourney. I only add this to give some perspective. I do not portend to have MLB connections nor do I have those aspirations (or delusions). I do care about young players and take offense to some of the "new age" **** that tries to creep in from time to time. If you must degrade someone else to sell your wares perhaps you should find a better product or line of _ _ _ _

I'll add my own perspective (since you chose to). I'm a youth baseball coach (11U and 7U). I am also involved in scouting at the major league level. I'm working as a pitching cross checker for a major league organization.

When I'm scouting or teaching, the guy I use as my point of reference is Greg Maddux.

I do not view his mechanics as new age ****.

Instead, I think Maddux is the gold standard.

quote:

Brockville Bunnies

My son played in their tournament for a few years. Rodger the manager is a great guy. I know they played a lot of US legion teams.

TPG to use one great pitcher to apply to all pitchers is a huge mistake.
Yankee has a good grip on the pitching mechanics. The elbow level is judged at the power position. I also felt that the poster deserved accurate information.
I recommend he get some good books atleast if he can't get good instruction.