Pitching mechanics

Without watching you throw it is not easy to diagnose the situation but I believe there could be one of two things happening here. 1. You are not getting your throwing arm into a good position when your front foot lands. This means that the timing is off and that you need to get your throwing arm up a bit higher to allow you the opportunity to hit your release point. 2. You may be taking your glove side shoulder off the target and "flying open". This would also cause the throwing arm to drag creating the up and in pitches that you are talking about. I tell my pitcers that they need to stay back (do not get their body ahead of their arm) and to stay closed (keep the entire front side of the body closed as long as possible) I hope this helps.

Not to interupt giving TPbulldogs advice but i also would like some. My question is, why would my bicep be hurting after i pitch? i run some , could use some more though, but i would still think its not just that. Perhaps its with my mechanics. All advice appreciated in advance

No, I could be but I dont feel it. Yesterday (monday) I went 2 innings... the Umpire wouldn't call a strike directly down the middle, it was unbelieveable, so i had 57 pitches in 2 innings and coach asked if I had pain and i couldn't take it anymore and said yes. It was in my elbow, i iced alot. The pain was pretty much the opposite side of my bicep. It is where there is one muscle/tendon im not sure that is pretty thick that is very moveable. any help? please, im considering MRI

Blake, sounds similar to "recoil" problems. When you throw, are you getting your drive foot "over the soda can?" Are making sure that you throw the ball without jerking back on that throwing arm? We say that some pitcher tell their arm, "throw, throw throw" but then their body says, "no, no, no." Make sure that your follow through is helping alleviate stress on your arm. Check out film if you have it.

Thanks for the advice i appreciate it

My son had a similar problem a couple of years ago. His pitching coach/trainer said it was probably tendonitus, which was caused by short-term overuse ......heavy throwing on the same day of pitching, etc. He prescribed rest from pitching and that did it.

I went to my trainer yesterday...(my mom doesnt want to see a doctor right away) She thinks it could be a strained bicep and elbow area...She has told me to rest for 2-3 days and ice whenever i can.

Blake,
Keep this is mind, pitching, no matter if you are doing it with correct mechanics or not, is an inherently horrible thing to do to your arm. I'm not saying that you should quit pitching as I have two sons that pitch. What I am saying is that no matter how you do it, pitching is very hard on your arm. Bicep pain is usually no big deal but when you are having pain in the shoulder or elbow, you need to be very cautious especially at 14 years old. Do not ignore pain in those two areas. I'm sure you school trainer is fine but if pain in either of those areas continue when you pitch, you really need to see a specialist.

I read an article about a year ago (I can't remember which magazine) that quoted a leading sports doctor that said he thinks if you did a comprehensive exam of every mlb pitcher you would find damage in every one of their throwing arms. This doesn't mean to stop pitching but it does emphasize how tough pitching is on your arm. At 14 years old you need to know that elbow and/or shoulder pain should never be ignored. Slight tears and streched tendons and ligaments are the reality of pitching. Not adressing those symptoms correctly and trying to throw through it can quickly lead to the end of your pitching career or a major surgery to continue.

Bottom line...Elbow or shoulder pain needs to be looked at by a doctor. Getting a qualified pitching coach to help correct your mechanics can help prevent further problems from developing.

Good luck to you.

Blake, Head coaches want you to see the trainer.That's because the coaches think that if you see an orthopedist, you'll be out 4 weeks no matter what. My experience with my son, a 16 year old pitcher, who has had some orthopedic issues in the past is that the best thing you can do is to make an appointment with the best orthopedic surgeon in your area and listen to what he says. He is charged with getting you well, the trainer is charged with getting you back on the field as soon as possible. Just one dad's opinion. Good luck.

Great advice from Rosy, for HS and beyond.

I'm 16 i dont think that matters but sorry for the confusion and defenitally thank you for all of the advice given.

itsrosy, Do you speak for all coaches when you make your off the wall comments. Please inform me where you get your incredible insight on what goes on with various head coaches and programs? If a kid has arm trouble he is sent to the trainer for initial care and informed to follow up with a doctor. I don't think that our school is any different that the majority of schools in the state. In a day and age, where everyone has a lawyer on stand by, the trainers usually error on the side of caution. We are not in the business of runnig players out to the field if their health is at risk. I have no problems with first hand knowledge, but it irks my a** to see someone paint a picture with such a broad stroke.

Ballfan, I truly believe that Rosy's advice is indeed correct.

If all HS coaches were as dedicated and involved as you with the well being of the player, there would be no need to have this discussion.

Having said that, I have seen and heard of programs (sucessful and woeful) that have little or no concern for a player's health, if it means a victory or 2. In the long run everybody loses with this short sighted approach. Parent's need to be careful as long as these guys are out there.

Currently I know of 2 examples in D1. One in the big 10 and 1 in the MVC. I have had Texas and Florida HS Dad's tell of similar instances that cost thier son's serious PT over the long haul, not to mention team success and individual exposure.

Soxnole, I'm sure that there are coaches that have an agenda, but i stand by my point that the high school is held to a greater standard of accountability than, lets say an all star team coach. If a trainer has knowledge of an injury and allows an athlete to perform without a release from a doctor, then they are setting themselves up for lawsuits. I'm not talking about a rolled ankle here, or a sprained thumb. I am talking aobut an injury where if left untreated, the athlete may suffer long term effects. I don't feel the need to defend my program or our trainers, but question where itsrosy gets off putting us all in the same category. Will the Canes game be on at your house this Saturday? Talked to "rook" tonight and he sounded great. Can't believe that they are done with school next week. Good luck this weekend.

All Noles/Canes are on and your invited. (fri@6PM,sat@6PM and sun.@Noon). He starts saturday against Camerdese. We'll order Giordano's and any of the guys that want to watch the game can come over after the Morton DH.

Your right about Rosy painting everyone with the same brush. I'm sure he meant it more as a warning than to indict your profession.

Soxnole,
Can I attend?

SURE weaver, but send me an email and tell me who you are.....[poconnor@videosoundinc.com]

As a father of two pitchers, I have seen many more HS coaches more concerned about wins than arms. All star/Summer coahes are typically better about taking care of arms than HS coaches. I realize that that this is a generalization but this has been my experience and I think my experience is not in the minority here.

When it come to an arm, it's always better to error on the side of caution. Rest is important but arm proper stretching prior to throwing once you start throwing again.

I saw an example this week of what HSDAD is talking about. This Schools Pitching staff is limited in numbers so a Pitcher starts and throws a complete game on Saturday and the pitch count had to be well over a hundred. The same pitcher is then called upon to throw a couple relief innings on Tuesday. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the same kid warming up on Thursday. That's total disregard for the pitchers arm.

Same school different pitcher on Wednesday tells the coach he feels a twinge in his arm on Wednesday during the middle innings. This pitcher is left in to complete the game in a losing cause. The next day is seeing the trainer but yet playing the field in Thursdays game. Why?

HSDad and Gamer, Thanks for sharing your experiences. That is the point I thought I was making before I was dumped on by Ballfan.

On the other hand Rosy, you did paint everyone with the same brush, which would rile any great coach with integrity. Ballfan is such a coach and raised a legitimate complaint.

Unfortunately, itsrosy paints a picture that I'm seeing in the profession more. As I've posted before, it seems that many more programs are feeling that pressure to win at all cost. I know my pressure has been increased but I welcome it. I don't think that the generalization is accurate with perspective to "most" but I can tell you that I received an email for an opposition pitcher that is going through this same problem. He just doesn't know what to do and stated that his coach doesn't care. He is a great kid and I wish I could do something for him.

Being a varisty coach it is my responsibility to take care of my players. We have a great trainer who really knows her stuff and always errs on the side of being cautious. We have our pitching staff condition their arms and bodies well before the season starts. We have them work tubing drills, abs, core work, and of course we run them. During the games I keep a detailed chart of the pitches and rarely have a pitcher go over 100 pitches. Although during this time of year a pitcher that is in good shape can withstand this amount with the proper rest. We have 8 pitchers on staff that are just pitchers. My top two have thrown about 30 innings with my next throwing 16, 12, 11, 7, and 7. I will not throw someone who has thrown a complete game on any less than 3 days rest. They usually will get 4 to 5 days in between. Since I have a dedicated pitching staff I don't have the problem of playing them in the field after they throw. I think that any coach worth his salt is going to put together a program for his pitchers. It is the responsibility of the player to keep himself in top shape during the year and to work on his mechanics between starts. Again, we have our pitchers on a program that they follow each day we play or practice. It is also the pitcher's responsibility to communicate his arm situation to the coach. Just the other day I had one of my top pitchers tell me he was ok to pitch in the championship game of the Flyer's Tournament after having pitched a complete game earlier in the day. Do you want to know what I told him? I told him emphatically "NO WAY! Now get away from me." So if anyone wants to make generalizations about coaches and/or trainers don't.

DC, looking forward to playing you guys this upcoming Monday. It looks like you guys are doing well in conference right now. Too bad the games arent at Alexian like they were scheduled.

DC33 mine was not a generalization but a couple of real examples. Many pitching injuries do not show up until long after the initial overload had taken place. A player can be in college when he finally loses playing time from an over-use injury that actually started in HS. This is the case in many arm injuries associated with pitching and throwing. As CoachB25 states, sometimes the pressure to win can lead to poor judgement.
Also, my post was not meant to be a knock on all coaches and or trainers, so please do not take it this way. The intent of this board is for all of us to learn from and with each other as we come on board to share our experiences. It's very hard for some players to tell thier coach they can't go but if they are possibly hurt or overused this is what they need to do.

There are plenty of excellent coaches out there and they are to be commended. You and CoachB25 sound like you are both examples of this.

Soxnole, This is getting old. My intent was certainly not to "paint all with the same brush" but at the same time point out some of what I have personally witnessed. If my posting was too general than I sincerely apologize. Others have seen to post similar situations. For those coaches who run programs the right way I say great job and I hope your players know how fortunate they are.

Now, forget this thread and get yourself ready for some FSU vs. Canes baseball this weekend!

I didn't mean to take offense to anything, I was just stating what I do in my program. I just don't want all coaches blamed for injuries. Sometimes players get injured because they fail to listen to the coaches and trainers. Some get injured because they lack the work ethic to get in good shape. I have seen it all.

I am done too.

Kenny it looks as though you guys are doing well too. I can't wait to walk you intentionally 3 times on Monday and another 3 on Tuesday. (Just kidding) It should be a good match up. See you Monday. Are you pitching Mon or Tuesday?

Sorry to here about all the bad experiences with high school coaches being more concerned about wins than players arms. And, while I know there are more than a few of those type out there, on the whole, I know the opporsite to be the case.

Let's not **** the whole community based on the insensitivity of a few. With that said--Blake go to a doctor. Specifically, don't go to just any othopedist--go to an orthopedist who specializes in sport movement. There are plenty qualified ones out there.

It is not normal for a 16yo to have the type of pain you descibed (if your description was accurate). While muscle soreness/fatigue is normal, pain at or above the elbow everytime you pitch is not. Get a qualified sports orthopedist and a qualified pitching coach--and this is the key--then ask them to work TOGETHER.

Being a father of a pitcher I am trying to understand the correlation between pitch count / over-use and performance / injury.

Does anyone have thoughts about the statistic PAP, Pitcher Abuse Points, and this correlation? PAP refers to PAP^3, which assigns 0 PAP to a start in which the pitcher throws 100 or fewer pitches and (PC-100)^3 PAP for all other starts.
Does anyone use this statistic in HS and/or summer travel teams?

I recall reading some information about this a while back. From what I remember the statistics showed that starting pitchers that went high in pitch count during a particular game where less effective (gave up more hits/runs) in thier following starts. I don't however remember any correlation to injuries.

However, in saying this, I am not condoning excessive pitch counts. I feel if a pitcher is going to be allowed to throw in the area of 100 pitches in a game, he must be properly conditioned to do so.

Tom House says 15-20 pitches per inning (I use the 15 pitch count) for every pitch a pitcher throws over 15 multiply it by 3 an add it to the 15 and that's his pitch count for the inning with a total of 95-105 for the game for a HS pitcher. If you use this formula he should be able to bounce back and pitch again in four days. (example a pitcher throws 19 pitches in an inning, 15 + 12 = 31 (you get the 12 by multiplying 3 x the number of pitches he went over 15)If you know about Tom House than you know he is one of the best pitching coaches in the country.

Tom House is excellent. He used to come out to Line Drives in Shorewood for a 2 day group clinic and the cost was around $80 per pitcher for the 2 day session. Player's parents and coaches were welcome to attend along with the player.

Unfortunately the last time I checked he was a little more pricey, (I'm going to say $300 - $400 per player) when he came out this way. Did anyone happen to attend and if so what did you think?

Thanks Gamer & doc. Tom House’s method makes perfect sense. It gives a per inning benchmark. Articles on Baseball Prospectus did reference correlations at the pro and college level with high PAP numbers and injury.

Rosy, no offense intended. Just clarification.

I have now erased this thread from my mind in its entirety, along with the 1st 2 games of this past weekend's Canes/Noles series! We'll get even @ the ACC tournament.