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Pitching Questions

R rbi9910+ posts
My son is a senior at his high school, and because all of the pitchers on the team are off speed pitchers, my son volunteered to take some pitching lessons because he has always had a strong, accurate arm. I give my son tons of credit because he has the shortstop position locked up tight, and could have enjoyed his last season doing what he loves most - playing shortstop. He probably hasn't pitched more than 20 innings in his whole life, and none while on varsity. Apparently the coaches see a lot of potential in him. The first time he threw they all came over to watch and had a lot of real good things to say. He has had four pitching lessons with a young man who is now pitching for Houston - Jeremy Griffiths, and some to the things he said knocked my socks off. My son is hitting his spots, the fastball moves down and in on a right hander, his changeup moves down and away. He is working on a slider now. All of this is great - but the real test is going to be on the mound in live game situations obviously. While his fastball is definately better than 80 mph, I doubt it is as high as 85.
With that all said, he was figuring he could toss a few innings here and there to help out the staff, but now there is a very real possiblity that he will be the #2 starter.

My question is this - what precautions should my son take to protect his arm? While he has the advantage perhaps of not having the wear-and-tear of his arm and shoulder other kids his age my be experiencing because they pitched more, this is definately going to put more of strain on it then if he just stayed at shortstop. Should he make the same number of throws in practice at shortstop as he usually does, or should he throw a little less to save his arm? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

In closing, I was listening to a sportstalk show, and Whitey Ford was one of the people in the discussion. Turns out he was a first baseman all his life up until his senior year of high school. He went to a college assesment and they told him that he wasn't a good enough player to think about college ball as a position player, but they told him he should try pitching since he had a strong arm. His first real pitching experience began his senior year of high school. I am thinking of nicknaming my son "Whitey" - only in America..................
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G GaDad100+ posts
RBI:

Welcome to the legion of Pitcher's parents on here. Sounds like your son is very talented.

Some things to think about:

If he is a starter and pitches the typical 80-100 pitches that many HS pitchers do, playing SS later in the same game, or even the next day, can expose him to injury. Be aware of pitch counts and rest periods. I think there is still a chart the has recomendations on pitches and rest periods on www.pitching.com that is based on Dr. Andrew's work. Many consider that to be the best guide. It would be a good idea for your son to have a discussion of this stuff with the Coach.

If he is not on the 3-lb. weight excersizes to strenghten the muscles around the elbow and rotator cuff, it would be a good idea to start. I'm sure the pitcher from Houston can give you that stuff. Regular long toss is a good idea also.

If he is just starting to pitch, I wonder if the slider is a good idea. There are different ways to throw it, but the most common way can be tough on the elbow.

Normally the change-up runs the other direction from that which you are describing. Perhaps he learned a trick in his pitching lesson. You just want to make sure he is not twisting his hand so that the thumb is the highest finger at release and follow through. This can also cause that kind of movement, but also strains the elbow.

So much to worry about!

Enjoy his Senior year. Mine is also a Senior pitcher. It goes by so fast.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Our best ss is our #1 pitcher. He will start on the hill tomorrow. He will sit and maybe dh on Friday. Make sure that gets rest after pitching. Pitching and then going to short later in the game or the next day is not a good situation for him. Just make sure that he does not get overused and put at risk of injury. Good luck this season
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
RBI,
Read very carefully the advice that has been already given to you.
I have seen at least a half dozen young players who started pitching late in HS be medical redshirts by the time they reach their sophomore year in college (3 of them with TJ surgery).
Although you think your son's arm is "fresh", he has not developed the muscle memory of a pitcher's arm, and he must work on strengthening excercises for that area of the body.
Learning certain pitches too quickly also may not be a good thing, in particular the slider or curve. These things ususally come in stages, each pitch is developed over a period of time, doing things too quickly may cause injury. Plus, I have noticed that these pitchers are ususally taken advantage of and overused. Most HS pitchers usually will play a position where less throwing has to be done. I do not feel that a pitcher should be playing ss, third base or catch if he is getting lots of time on the mound, but that is JMO.

I am a firm believer that not all pitching instructors are created equally. Just because an instructor is a player, does not mean that he is a good pitching coach. There is a difference.
Proceed with caution, if your son wants to play beyond HS. Best of luck.
S Savannah100+ posts
Tiger Paw Mom - words to live by. You hit the nail on the head. Kids that start pitching late (senior year HS) my be fresh, but that is not a good thing. These kids are much more prone to injury. It is not just muscle memory. These kids have not developed their arms to take the stress of constent sustained maximum delivery. They may have the talent, size, strength to throw 90 mph, yet they often end up injured. It doesn't have to be that way. You have to begin with a very carefull program of intense warm-up before any throwing takes place. Carefully qwatch pitch counts. Finally warm-down is important to these newbies.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Halfmoonslider,
A Stepford Wife I will never be, a concerned and educated pitcher's parent I will always be. Big Grin
Have seen too many young pitchers with really great talent have their futures go down the drain because of the following;
a.coaches who take advantage of their talent to win (which often includes Dads)
b.parents are so excited their young son might be a major league star someday because he throws hard and uses curve balls, sliders, knuckleballs at too early an age, they never question much (pitch counts or innings included).
I read this morning on another thread about pitchers throwing over a hundred pitches so early in the season. This to me is absurd at the HS and college level. While parents are overjoyed their son gets the start, plays another position while not pitching, if they are not physically ready , most likely injury will occur. If you wish your son to go to the next level with this in mind, most likely it ain't gonna happen.
Many college coaches are quite good at finding a player with the potential to pitch if he is a position player. With proper coaching instruction it's possible, not with a few "lessons".
R rbi9910+ posts
Thank you all so much for the input.

What would you consider a "safe" pitch count if he will be back at ss the next day? The hour per pitch thing would mean 20 or less if there is a game the next day. Maybe this is unanswerable, but would 30-35 pitches be too many? If, and I do mean if, his fastball does what the coaches think it will do in game situations, would closing a game be the better route? If it is, but the coach "abuses" his arm by starting him, should it be left up to my son to speak up? He has paid his dues in the infield the past two years to earn his starting spot at ss this year, and the truth is even if he refused to pitch he would still start at ss. If the coach tells him he needs him on the mound, my son's first reaction will be to do what is best for the team. While he would like to close, and has told the coach this, I think it would be very hard for a competitive kid to "refuse" a coach's request to toe the rubber.

We are looking at pitcher related exercises to help prevent rotator cuff and elbow problems, but he has been lifting weights all winter to build up his strength. This pitching thing really only started about six weeks ago. With the season starting in only a couple of weeks, will doing pitcher type exercises help much at this point? He will obviously do them regardless because some is better than nothing.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
rbi,
This is a tough question. Lot of it depends upon whether your son will go onto play at the next level. If he doesn't I say put in as much time as you can in HS and enjoy the game, but if he has committed to play somewhere or looking for a scholarship, his health is most important. No one can say how many pitches is enough. For one it may be 30-35 for another it may be 70-80, for another 100. Lots has to do with conditioning. Besides the upper body workout, lower body is just as important.
Pitching is much different than throwing the ball as an infielder or outfielder. The different pitches put different stress upon the arm and recovery is the key. The shortstop is the busiest spot in the infield, there is no way a starting pitcher can be able to keep up as a ss after a pitching start the previous night. If used as a closer, and only pitches a few fastballs, he may be fine. Your son needs to decide which role is more important to him this year, if he plans to move ahead. I would wait until you see what your sons role may be as a pitcher. It would be your sons responsibility to speak to the coach, but you must be his advisor!
I can tell you this though, if my son had a choice, he would take the opportunity to play in every game, therefore he would prefer the position at ss.
H HiHardHeat1,000+ posts
The average HS SS may (if lucky) get 6 throws to 1B a game. Of these 6, 3 will be with plodders running down the basepath where he doesn't have to gun it.

He'll warm up between innings, but, expect a HS SS to have about 3 hard throws/game. That's probably about the same for the average OF (unless you pitching staff routinely gets bombed).

Compare that to a 75 pitch outing. If a player is just starting to pitch, limit him to the fastball and the changeup. He doesn't need to learn a curve/slider also his first year of pitching. It takes years to really build up an arm. Don't rush to process too quickly.
P pbonesteele100+ posts
Rbi99,

If your son is going to get serious about pitching and the weight/strength training ... make sure he works with someone that truly understands how to design a workout regime for pitchers. Your son can't just walking into a weight room and do some curls and bench press and expect to build the areas critical to supporting the pitching sequence. There's too many kids ... and non-pitchers ... trying to out-do each other watching their biceps bulge in the mirror to see who looks better in a tank top.

The key to staying healthy as a pitcher is building the muscle groups that absorb and decelerate the energy generated by the pitching sequence. As a kid gets stronger, he can throw with more velocity because the body will allow itself absorb more of the deceleration energy ... your body knows how strong it is and will prevent you from throwing harder/faster than it can decelerate ... unless a kid ignores his own body and over-stresses it, usually resulting in injury.

I'm no expert ... but my son has really focused in the last year on building core torso strength, back, shoulders, legs and some chest. His workouts with the HS team and his club coaches integrate together. He lifts with his HS baseball team three times a week, then does 'core' strength conditioning and yoga with his club coaches twice a week, that includes balance training, e.g., doing dumb-bell work while balancing on a platform placed on top of a cylinder laying on it's side.

The result has been a 30 lb weight gain in the last year that's almost all muscle mass in his legs, chest, ribcage, back, and shoulders. The Yoga has been a tremendous help also. He went to a college camp in December ... the college coaches had the pitchers do a drill where they started from the stretch without a ball, had to break into their balance point and hold, then bend over to pick up a ball off the mound while balancing on one leg, come back up to their balance point, then break home and throw. This was a very easy drill for him due to the balance workouts. A year ago it would have been very difficult.
Last edited by pbonesteele
R rbi9910+ posts
Coach May, just curious - did your #1 pitcher actually sit or dh the next game, or did he go back in at ss? What if your #1 pitcher is absolutely better than anyone else at ss - does he still rest the next day?

While my son is not the second coming of anybody, there is just simply no one this particular year that can field the position anywhere near as well as he can.

Turns out he is doing the correct exercises at school for pitchers - but only since the start of the year, including lunges and such.

Then again, there are a million hall of famers in the gym, only they don't bring it out onto the field. It remains to be seen whether my son pitching amounts to anything. I simply respect his team dedication to even offer to try. I hope I am not hogging up too much time or space here, but while I have worked with my son on fielding and hitting, I know absolutely nothing about pitching, and all of the advice I have received here has been invaluable. If my son starts, and if he does well and they leave him in too long (pitch count wise you seem to think he should not exceed 70 pitches or so, or tries starting him too soon), I will first let my son talk to the coach (he has already told him he would like to relieve). Because we are talking health, not playing time, I will not let him be overused because all of you say that would be the case.

Thanks again for all of the input. I will let you all know how things work out - ideally he will set the school save record - and win a gold glove!!!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
rbi,
Sorry if we made you worry, don't. Your son will be the best judge of what he can and cannot do.
Our rightfielder (ACC scholarship recipiant for an ACC school)last year was called upon for relief, he was not a pitcher per se (used to be) but could throw a straight fastball (close to 90) to get the players out. After about 4 games, he went to the coach, told him he was NOT a pitcher and it was taking it's toll on his body and bat. The coach respected his decision and he was relieved of his pitching duties, except in dire circumstances.
Your son is obviously a true team player as he is willing to step up and help out as needed. That is what is important.
Keep us posted.
Last edited by TPM
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Our #1 pitcher is our best ss. He pitched Thursday night five innings 84 pitches. He sat Friday he did DH. Before the game he did his running and light toss work. We do not play players at any posistion the next day if they start a game on the hill or throw over 35 game pitches. The risk is not worth the potential reward. If a kid pitches on Monday and then you try to hide him in rf the next day he will get a play and cut it loose. Why take the risk at all. It has nothing to do if he is the best in the field. Its about protecting a players health and making sure that he is available the next time he can safely play. Our guys know the rules and they understand it. They know there is no need to even ask what the deal is. If we are not good enough to have a chance to win because one guy is out of the line up then we are not very good to start with.
bbmom15bbmom1510+ posts
Coach May, I am sure glad that you have enough depth on your team that any given player can sit out and you have someone on the bench to do the job effectively.
As far as taking a player in HS or College and making them into a pitcher....Well Jim Gilligan at Lamar University does it all the time. He has had more than a few go onto play after college. Yes they must put in extra time in conditioning and training but it can be done and without injury to their arms. I truly think that most injuries start out in youth baseball with our illustrious Daddy coaches teaching and then overutilizing the off speed stuff....
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Coach May,
Here where we live, if you are true starter with a future in BB, you don't do much else. You also begin your season with a low pitch count, maybe 50, regardless of how you are doing. If you have a good bat, you DH or take first sometime during the week. Some caoches will not even have their player DH for fear of injury and then they may jeopardize the players future.
You failed to mention what grade that player is in, does he have a scholarship? Is he expecting one? Do you think as a coach you are raising his potential as a two way player, is he a better pitcher or a better ss?
Your post suggests that it is ok for a pitcher to pitch and play another position in the same season. Not so for every player. If the player has a future, I don't agree. Why do you think TJ surgery has become so frequent over the past few years.
M micdsguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Why do you think TJ surgery has become so frequent over the past few years.


For one thing, TJ surgery is more common because it works and the technique is understood by more surgeons than years ago.In that sense, its increased use is a blessing.

Anyone know what TJ surgery costs nowadays?
Just curious. Is it done outpatient now?
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
We have had kids that only pitched. This was because they were not the best option in the field and or could not hit well. This young man is our best SS so he plays there when he rested from pitching. Is he a better posistion player than a pitcher, only time will tell. Sometimes I think he is sometimes I think he will project more as a pitcher. He is a soph and is 6'3 165 85-87. Hits well with power and is a 7.2 60 guy. He is not blazing fast but he is quick but with the way he works I will bet he is under 7.0 by his senior year. He would rather play ss or of than pitch. He doesnt dislike pitching but he loves playing in the field and he hits so much better when hes not pitching. He has been throwing like all our kids on a regular bullpen rotation and live bp since October. 84 pitchers is nothing to this kid trust me. He was begging to stay in. He hit 80 during an ab and we let him finish that kid before we took him out. I never throw a kid on less than four days rest and they never play the field untill they have had time to recover. We only play two games a week so its no problem really. We do have a couple of weeks with three games but we have enough pitching where we can juggle it pretty good. I think it is to every kids advantage to be able to play multiple posistions be able to hit and if they can pitch great. If they are not capable of helping us in the field or at the plate and they can pitch then they become pitchers. But we never stop working with them on improving those other skills because you never know what can happen over the course of a HS career. JMO
ConsultantConsultant10,000+ posts
Tiger Paw Mom;
Your comments regarding pitcher/shortstop is "on target". Since 1983, we can track our 5,000 American and International players, including the 19 years of Area Code players. Very few of our pro scouts/coaches played a pitcher at shortstop during our Goodwill Series or Area Code games.

The arm angle at shortstop is different than throwing off the mound. There can lead to injury as the season "wears on".

Youth and HS coaches will play their pitcher/athlete at Shortstop, however when the pitcher/SS pitches, then you have the #2 shortstop playing defense, which can lead to errors and increased pitch count.

My solution is to have an agreed pitch count with my pitcher and if it 45 or 75 pitches, pitch this pitcher at the end of the game.

Then drill the defense each day in making the simple play, reading the bat and never, never missing the cutoff man. Keep the runners at 1B for the DP and this lowers the pitches per inning.

The Japanese high school pitchers throw every day, however the mounds are flat and they have total body control, probably could pitch with eyes closed. They also throw 9 inning games in the National HS tournament, viewed by 40 million on TV. During the game, the Japanese pitcher will play catch between innings. There is no DH in Japan. After the game the starting pitcher will continue to throw lightly in the bullpen.

It is important to remember Orel Hershiser
philosophy "change speeds and change location". Anything to move the hitters eyes!

Bob Williams "the consultant"
ConsultantConsultant10,000+ posts
Micduguy;

the mounds are maybe 5"high. The Mizuno or SSK baseball have no raised seams and weight about the same as the Wilson, Diamonds baseballs.
The majority are made in the same factory's in South China under different supervision from each company.

After every game in the National Tournament the pitchers are X-rayed for evidence of tears in the shoulder or elbow. This is placed in a computer for comparison at a later date.

Bob
M micdsguy1,000+ posts
quote:
After every game in the National Tournament the pitchers are X-rayed for evidence of tears in the shoulder or elbow. This is placed in a computer for comparison at a later date.


I'd never heard that! Very interesting. Wonder how many of the most active stars come down with cancer 30 years later. (that was mostly a joke)

Doing that is expensive and probably still wouldn't reveal many problems from what I understand.

That WOULD suggest that all pitchers should get routine MRIs and X-rays to predict problems and to serve as a baseline if changes occur.

To what extent are healthy pitchers tested here? I've never heard of it being done except perhaps in the Pros.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Bob,
There are a few big D1 schools that have that machine available for use. It is awesome.
Good point about using the best ss as a pitcher, I agree with your comments.
I used to think that if a pitcher in college was out on medical redshirt due to arm injury, it was a sign the program put their players in jeopardy. I have learned that 98% of these pitchers were the best players in their HS, and utilized to the max, ss, third base, even as catchers! By the time they got to college, they had arm problems from overuse. Many of them became pitchers later in HS and continued to play in position when needed. Of course these type will never say no to the challenge put before them. I know mine would not have said no if asked (he used to beg), to play everyday. Just recently at the age of 19, he is realizing what could or could not have been if we kept our mouths shut.
I give credit to coaches, it is not an easy job. I do not hold them responsible for trying to win by using their best talent. I do believe the responsibility lies on the parent to be educated about the dynamics of throwing pitching vs position,ewtc., if they feel that their son has a chance to play beyond HS (no matter what the level).
O ORmom100+ posts
My son is a soph. in high school. He was a Varsity starting pitcher last year-pitched pretty much every other game. When he didn't pitch, he was in the outfield. This year he is our starting first baseman, as well as a starting pitcher-we luckily have more pitchers this year so I think it may affect his pitching time but I'm not sure. Will his playing first be as much of an issue as ss? Our last game he threw a ball home for the out but was at a wierd angle (he's a lefty) and immediately after was moving that arm around like he'd done something to it. He said he twisted it funny but seems to be okay now. He's really good at both positions and loves playing them both-I'm not sure which he'd pick if he had to choose.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
ORmom,
The ideal position for a pitcher if played is at first, especially if left handed. They "catch" more than they throw.
However your example of his twisted throw is why MOST pitchers with lotsof talent sit the bence. Most teams cannot afford to lose a pitcher to injury.
ConsultantConsultant10,000+ posts
ORMOM and Tiger PawMOM;

You are correct 1b is ideal for the pitcher/position player, also LF. There are the exceptions for 3B. If the pitcher/outfielder is playing LF then the inning before he is scheduled to pitch, have the pitcher warm up from LF between innings with his bullpen catcher.

For the left handed 1B, please have this player in infield practice pivot to his right when he throw home to his catcher. This will be his natural motion and will allow his body
be utilized instead of arm only.

Bob Williams
Last edited by Consultant
P pbonesteele100+ posts
CoachMay,

I have to say I really admire that perspective, i.e., you never know how a kid will turn out once he decides to put in the hard work to improve some area of his game. Back in the day when I used to coach LL, I'd typically get approached by a parent asking why I didn't just play each kid at only one position where I fielded my absolute best team to focus on winning ... my response was that I always tried to give the team the "chance to win", but I saw my first responsibility to teach all the boys as much as possible about multiple positions and skill areas. This was LL after all, so get a grip and eat your hotdog. I'd rotate kids around while keeping key positions anchored. I can't tell you how many kids I've seen be the star catcher in LL end up as an outfielder or 2B in HS. My feeling was that whatever I might think about a kid's optimum position would probably turn out wrong by the time he was in HS, so my job was to just give each kid as many tools as possible.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I did the same thing when I was coaching AAU. Each kid would have two primary posisitons such as catcher 1b or mif / of etc. But we would have fundemental practice for all the kids on outfield play infield play and pitching mechanics for all the kids. The only posistion that I never made a kid work at was catcher. I have always felt this was a posistion that a kid really had to want to play in order to learn it. Our #1 now in HS was on my AAU team. He threw about 10 innings in 45 games when he was 12. Did not pitch at all when he was 13 and did not have middle school ball at 14 in his county so he practiced with our HS team. He got a ton of mechanic work on the hill as well as simulated games. You have no idea how a kid is going to mature and where the best place for them is going to be when they are 12 yrs old etc. Teach them the game. Teach them multiple posistions. My son is a catcher. He has always been a catcher 1b and pitched some. I have always given him a chance to work the outfield and 3b as well as 1b. He has sprouted up quite a bit he went from 5'7 to 6'0 in one year and lost 10 lbs. Whos to say that in a year or two he wont be a pitcher or 3b etc? Dont limit kids do the opposite. I could careless where he would rather play. He will play where he helps the team the most. Right now its behind the plate. And chances are he will stay there his entire HS career. But if we need him to move he will be prepared. For the teams sake first of all and a byproduct is he will be more versatile as a player.

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