Pitching Questions Answered here by MLB Veteran

quote:

I have pointed out in the past that I see just as many injuries if not more in catchers and infielders. They do not throw CBs.

Bobblehead,

This is much different than what we see every year. The vast majority of Labrum and TJ surgeries in professional baseball involve pitchers. It must be at least 10 to 1.

Even among the top high school players in the country, it's nearly always the pitchers who are experience arm surgery. Maybe others see it differently.

My understanding is that catchers and infielders get hurt more often from injuries sustained in the game, not from throwing.
It is not uncommon for catchers to have TJS, but I will go with PG's probables and the very few catchers that I know who did have surgery (not from an injury), pitched when they were younger.

I would also agree that the most dangerous pitch for youth is the fastball with a little more mustard put on it. When my son was ten I showed him how to throw a knuckle change (same grip as the knuckle curve only not thrown like the curve). By the fall of that year he was naturally starting to throw it with a little break. When spring rolled around and he started throwing again, his knuckle change had now morphed into a full fledged curve ball. He ended up throwing that pitch all through two leagues that year and all-stars along with his fastball and changeup. The only times he gaot sore was when he threw his fastball too long in a game and strted "arming" the ball to home. He would complain of tricep and bicep pain. There was one game though when he started shaking off the curveball. I was wondering if all that curveball throwing might be catching up to his joints. After that game I asked him about it and he then showed me his finger tip- it was worn quite a bit from the pressure he was placing while digging it into the seam.

Velocity improvement should increase naturally when a pitcher is taught the correct skills. My son when he was 9 was average- velocity wise. Each year we worked on throwing more repetitions and strengthening the arm and legs. I always made him hold his arms away from his body and high to build that arm strength. He is now twelve and is above average velocity ( he is 5'7" which helps also). I have not clocked him this year but I have had several umpireas and coaches say that he is throwing in the 65-70 mph range. In his city league he is fininshing up he has compiled the lowest era in his league through about 20 games in the which he has pitched in about 3/4 of them.


I have seen other pitchers around him increase both slower and faster in velocity in relation over the years. It really is true that 1/2 is genetics/god given talent and the other 1/2 is form, strength, and just plain desire to want to throw harder.

MLB Veteran,
My son is a hs pitcher that throws mid eighties most of the time. I have witnessed 88-90 on a stalker gun one time, my question is why does the velocity cycle? Did yours cycle? He says there are periods where his arm is dead, any thoughts. Thanks.

Good question. I have 2 answers. 1) marginal error of guns and 2) fatigue


A) please note that it is a fact different guns have the tendency to give different results thus a margin of error due to:

1. Point of measurement
2. Angle of incidence
3. Gun calibration

Please refer to this article:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/zoooomaya-and-speed-guns/

My Solution: Using a large enough sample size of pitches/guns, find the average-that is KEY!

B)Fatigue is based on all sorts of factors. Is he playing different sports, how much pitching is he doing? Is he coming from behind the plate to throw?

By relying too much on the gun, your son may try too hard to overthrow to hit high numbers, and thus overcompensating his mechanics and possibly injury.

Have your son stay within himself and throw within comfortable of intensity. In most cases, it is true that your velocity will get you signed or drafted, however, it is your command of pitches and mental pitching savvy that will make him a winner and...longevity.

Influx of velocity for me was always based on fatigue.

Rich

MLB Veteran,
Thanks for the info, I'm just wondering if there is some periodization cycle involved that causes the swing. He works hard, lifts weights (pitchers program), long tosses, and plays a position. I'm really just not sure if the arm needs rest or more work. If he shuts it down and lets it rest say a few weeks he says his velocity and arm power is noticably lower. Usually a day or two after he long tosses is when he is in the higher range. I was just curious, any thoughts on swimming? Thanks again.

down and out-

if your son is only pitching, then you can gauge cycles throughout the season. SInce he is playing other positions, this makes it very difficult to keep an eye on his pitching progress. As for me, yes I did have a pitching cycle, July was the worse month of the season for me. I hit a wall at that time and just had to pitch through it, but then again, I am ONLY pitching. So I suggest, you go with the flow. Long toss, does he still long toss during the season? Long toss is for pre season activity and maybe a little...and I mean little long toss during. Some may differ because they make an earning selling long tossing. Every arm needs rest. Please remember this, it takes two weeks for an arm to get in shape and two weeks for an arm to get out of shape. Swimming -sure, why not. The bodies of both are somewhat similar, ie, longated muscles and a strong core.

Rich

No I do not. I think simulation of the arm pitching such as plyometrics is better (and safer). Anything over the head is discouraged, because you want to work out according to the motion of a pitching delivery.

As to MY personal workout routine...I am retired!

Let me add to that, core work I feel is more important than building arm strength.In building arm strength does'nt mean you will throw harder, it only means your arm is stronger.Building your core I feel will help you throw harder, so concentrate on that.

MLBvet,

We have a 6'3" (will be a Senior in HS next season) that throws in the mid 80s. He was a Catcher/Pitcher for years before his Sophmore year and has a very strong arm from Catching position. The question I have is whether there is a drill or drills for him to work on to get over a bent front knee and stop spinning out to the left ( he is a RHP). I believe he would throw harder and have much better control if he stayed on line and didn't lock his front knee. He is also having arm and knee problems since he has become a Pitcher only. Any advice would be welcomed. Anyone else that would like to advise would be as well.

Thanks!

If you can post some video, you'll get the best feedback. But, without that, it sounds like your son needs more momentum. Many pitchers, IMHO, need more momentum - especially those taught to "stay back", "stop at the top", or "hit the balance point". Have him focus on getting his center of gravity moving toward the target earlier and faster. To do this, he simply needs to push his hips sideways earlier than he does. He probably doesn't start forward until or after the peak of his knee lift. So, have him push his hips out slightly before the peak of his knee lift. He might find it helpful to start with a slight bend in his knees.

The towel drill would be a good drill for practicing this. There is also a drill called the "cross-over drill" whereby you start with your stride foot crossed over in front of your posting leg. This sort of presets the front hip out ahead of everything else. Make sure to bend the legs enough so that both feet start flat on the ground.

Now, having said all of that, there may be other contributors to your son spinning out. I'd suggest looking for posture changes. In particular, watch what his head does and look for unnecessary movement. I'd also look for timing issues. Does he open up early? Watch the glove arm to make sure it stabilizes out front and that he brings his chest to the glove - not the glove to the chest.

First of all, due to my hectic schedule, I at times am not able to reply as quickly as I would like. Please accept my apologies. I too lock my front knee. My body type did not allow me to bend my front leg. When throwing the baseball, the action of your hips is to thrust back as you throw the ball. My thrust made me lock my front leg, pushing my hips back and locking my front knee. This is not uncommon. The ultimate throwing position is to throw over a bent front leg. The drill to help him correct or at least be conscience of proper mechanics is the old towel drill. If you are familiar with it have him practice it. This may help somewhat, but if his physical make-up does not allow him to bend, then we should just concentrate on the rest of his mechanics. Usually the locking happens after he has bent his front knee. Probably when he lands he has a bent front knee, but as he releases the ball, his hips thrust back and his leg in an upward position locks. His leg probably locks after he has released the ball and that, in my opinion, is perfectly fine. As to his arm hurting, you should look at his use and rest between throwing. For ones arm to stay in pitching shape a proper pitching coach and regiment should be in place. At the high school level that is usually absent. No offense to the high school coaches that try to keep informed on proper coaching and pitching maintenance. If you look at his video, see if his leg locks after he has released the ball that is usually the case. Best of luck.

http://video.berecruited.com/videos/athletes/217452/76363341

This is my first time posting so I hope I'm doing this right. My son is a left handed pitcher and will be a 2010 HS graduate. I'm wondering if his mechanics look ok? He is only throwing around 79 or 80 and wondering if it is something in his mechanics that would make him throw harder.

Thanks

I watched the video.

I saw two things:

Have him roll his hip inward before going forward.
It looks like his hips are not a factor. Remember it's a "roll in" and not a "twist back."
Secondly,

His glove drops too quickly. Have him keep his glove up longer and bring his chest to his glove. This will give him better extension. If you are familiar with the towel drill, like I mentioned in previous posts, that will give him an idea of what it should feel like.

Please note: "Drills" are designed to give one the sense of "feeling" and muscle memory.

Overall, I like what I see. Best of luck.


Rich

Rich, do you think his inability to roll his hip inward is due to the fact that he tends to "sit" a little bit when he starts forward, rather than put pressure on the inside of the leg to start his forward momentum. I would appreciate your opinion. It is very hard to see a clip at full speed.

Bighit15,
Yes, that seems to be the case, however, you must keep in mind, he may not have been taught how to transfer weight properly. So I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Once he is taught how to transfer weight back, it will free up his hips to roll inward. All in all, I agree with you. I am interested in hearing everybody else's opinion; I am always learning, and would like to hear other's opinion about the transfer of weight...Rich

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:
Rajun Cajun,

I thought Rich Rodriguez gave you a very reasonable answer to your question; however, I would go a little further on the subject of your concerns about a 9 yo pitcher's velocity.

The ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) has published several compelling studies of youth pitcher injury--their primary conclusion is very clear: Overuse is the biggest risk factor for arm injury to youth pitchers. And, the single pitch type that best correlates to arm injuries among youth pitchers? No, it is not the curveball or slider--it is the fastball.

Shocking? Hardly. "Johnny Stud", who can throw strikes in the low 50's at 9 yo, is going to be used more than any other pitcher on his team. The glory of being "team ace" will undoubtedly last for several years. Johnny Stud's father will likely support his son's chronic overuse, because he gets to bask in his little boy's reflected glory, as long as Johnny is going good and winning games.

If you have no idea what an immature growth plate is, and what the stresses of high pitching loads can do to immature growth plates, you should educate yourself.

Youth pitching at LL level should mostly be about developing kids' throwing mechanics and their physical condition for throwing/pitching so they will have fun when they are on the mound. "Johnny Stud" will be much better off, in my opinion, if he is on teams from 9 - 12 yo where at least 3/4 of his teammates share the pitching load.

Of course, "Johnny" and his dad will have to defer some accumulation of glory but, honestly, there is probably not much long-term satisfaction to be gained from 9 yo glory on the mound anyway.

Great informative post laflippin. I read something just recently in the latest issue of "Collegiate Baseball" that had a great article about this very thing. The main contributing author was the renown Dr. William Andrews. All this time I had scolded co-workers when they said their son's were throwing curves at 10, 11, 12 yrs of age. While it does stress their growth plates, it is the fastball that is the main culprit mixed with overuse.

The delivery is very inconsistent. His stride is often way too short and poor alignment. He needs to control his stride. His foot should land further out towards the plate and close to a line drawn from his post foot instep to the plate.
I like the kick leg and his body to form a 45% angle just before the kick leg lifts off the ground .
His chest should be out over the plant foot thigh as he finishes his throw. Very jerky and inconsistent especially for a lefty.

I guess I wasn't renowned enough when I argued that the FB was the most dagerous pitche for young pitchers. Every one said I was a heretic.

Dr. Andrews stressed to a friend of mine (whose son needed TJS) his frequent use of CB during the key developement stage most likely caused his injury and too many trips to the mound in general as a young pitcher.

CB is not a dangerous pitch, when used sparingly. Excessive speed on the FB is not a dangerous pitch either, over use is. Those type are used more often than others. Those with lower velocity who have success with teh CB early, will be overused just as frequently as the harder throwing youngsters.

The biggest culprit are parents and coaches (as stated above) for allowing overuse and allowing the young player to begin actual weight training that may be dangerous for young developing bodies (as noted overhead lifts or pull ups). Moderation and age appropriate should be considered in every phase for a young player.

TPM, did you see the recent story in Collegiate Baseball where Dr. Andrews now says the fastball may create more stress than the curve?

His study indicated overuse was the primary culprit, and that when moderation was the rule, use of the curve may not be so bad after all.

I found that surprising, but also contrary to my own observations over the years.

The big problem with curves is not how often you use it in games. The big problem is the necessity of practicing it quite a bit if you intend to use it in games. And the fact that so often, a young player throws it so horribly incorrectly that the stress level is multiplied many fold.

MD,
Yes I saw that and also stressed for the second time that FB pitchers are used more often than others, which overuse becomes the culprit.

Correct on the CB as well. It has been discussed here several times that practicing the CB and not throwing it properly can hurt young arms.

Another danger in frequent use of the CB is that it prevents young pitchers from developing CU and FB.

Moderation is the key in everything in life.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:
BHD,

[Edit added: My note below was in re: your one-liner in agreement with idea of the FB being the most risky pitch for youth pitchers....while I was writing it, a fair amount of water flowed under the bridge so it may look very far out of context in this thread...]

In fairness, the connections are not always that obvious to most of us (myself included). ASMI research articles are often so technical in nature that much of the content can be difficult to digest.

Another of the non-intuitive revelations that recently came out of ASMI was: Throwing breaking balls does not seem to correlate with youth pitcher injuries--at least in the studies conducted so far--despite a tremendous amount of 'common baseball wisdom' to the contrary. In fact, Fleisig and Andrews specifically looked for that correlation, hypothesizing ahead of time that it would be found. However, when the presumed correlation was not found, they were good enough scientists to report their findings without bias.

Unfortunately, these limited studies cannot really control for the variation in quality of breaking pitches that might be taught to youth pitchers across the country so "caveat emptor" still remains a sound idea in pitching.

What I take from this (and I recognize I am getting far, far off of the original topic---sorry, folks!) is that if you do know how to teach a biomechanically efficient breaking ball, then go ahead and teach it to young kids before they learn a poor one from somebody else. The flip side is: If you suspect that you don't know enough about the subject to teach it well, then refrain from teaching it at all. Sometimes it does pay to seek, identify, and hire expert help.

Here is a response from Dr. Glen Fleisig in regard to curveballs from the ASMI website:

Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
ASMI Team

member is offline





Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 579
Location: Birmingham, AL
Re: curveball
« Reply #49 Yesterday at 12:01pm »

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Good, lively discussion, guys. It clearly shows your collective passion for helping kids enjoy baseball - in a successful and safe manner. I share this passion.

Let me try to add some clarification:

First of all, I think each of you should get and read this article, if you haven't done so already. Click on right, where it says, "Full Text (PDF) Free".

This study, as well as previous studies, shows that lateral trunk tilt at the time of ball release was about the same for kids throwig fastballs and curveballs - about 29 +/- 8 degrees. What this means is that most (about two thirds) youth pitchers have their trunk tilted to their glove side, somewhere between 21 and 37 degrees. Furthermore, shoulder "abduction" (essentially, the armpit angle) is between 80 and 95 degrees for both the fastball and curveball, for most youth pitchers. An "over the top" pitcher might be closer to 37 deg of lat. trunk tilt and 95 deg of abduction, while a pitcher with a low arm slot might be closer to 21 deg of lat. trunk tilt and 80 deg of abduction. What all of this means is that variation in release angle of the ball is a lot bigger between pitchers than between pitch types within one pitcher.

The above study included 29 youth pitchers (10-15 years old). They each claimed to throw a fastball and curveball. No instructions were given how to throw a curveball. We used this procedure because we wanted to test typical, self-proclaimed youth curveballs in our society - not particular curveball mechanics taught by ASMI nor by any other individual center.

Although ASMI has tried to prove that the curveball is more dangerous than the fastball for youth pitchers, we have not been able to prove this. My personal opinion is that we will never prove the curveball to be more dangerous than the fastball. That being said, I think we all agree that the youngest pitchers should get their fastball going first ("master it", "dominate", whatever term you want to use).


Here is a link to the page in the message board:

http://asmiforum.proboards21.com/index.cgi?action=displ...th&thread=569&page=4

To all,

Now this is great stuff, the tone of your findings and replies shows your passion for sharing knowledge in order to better players as well as the game. Of course I do like the heated argument every once in awhile to let everyone know we are alive and kickin but we now find ourself in a learning atmosphere . Please take this as a HIGH FIVE and not a 'pat on the head'.

Rich

Okat here's a question; Ice or no Ice after one pitches ?

oops Okay

Bballman . Rob Nen and I just had a discussion on the fastball and the curve and we concluded that the fastball when thrown is usually thrown closer to the ear in an upright position which incorporates bigger muscles . The curve is thrown with a tilt to the head opening up the arm slot so the pitch can go thru which abandones the larger muscles. This only happens when the curve is taught improperly. The curve or any breaking ball should be thrown in the upright position just like the fastball. THis should relieve the risk of injury. When I say upright position I mean the head and chest should be facing the plate in a upright position. Just our opinion

MLBVeteran,

I don't disagree with the essential message in your note about proper mechanics for throwing a curveball; however, your comments don't go nearly far enough, in my opinion.

The crucial difference between a fastball and a breaking ball, assuming that gross mechanics are already the same for both, is in the configuration of the forearm, wrist, and hand from beginning of launch to release point.

Since fastballs are released "palm-forward", the forearm/wrist/hand must rotate only about 90 degrees into pronation after a fastball is released.

Since curves and sliders are released "palm inward" (as though you were making a karate-chop), the forearm/wrist/hand must rotate up to as much as 180 degrees in order to achieve complete pronation after release.

"Pronation" has recently become a sort of cottage industry within pitching, and various people try to sell the idea of pronation as something that "good" pitchers do while "bad" pitchers don't do it. Nothing could be further from the truth. Every overhand throw of a baseball is accompanied by a pronation event immediately after release.

In my opinion, the worst curveball advice out there is to "twist the wrist" at release in order to put topspin on the ball (that is, many think you should twist from "palm-inward" to "palm-up", as if you were asking for spare change immediately after your karate-chop). It is always amazing how many kids believe that is the key to throwing a breaking ball.

But, consider what happens when you do something like that: At the peak velocity of your delivery, the forearm/wrist/hand twists ~90 degrees further into supination and then must "untwist" up to 270 degrees into pronation after release of the ball. Relatively weak joints like wrist and elbow should not be subjected to the forward-directed force of a baseball launch with a simultaneous lateral "twist and untwist" motion at the wrist and elbow.

laflippin,

Well to hear that people are teaching pronation is disheartning . What I've read sounds plausable and I do agree that the curve has been taught with the palm-up which just hurts thinking about it.A good illustration of pronation is a picture of a quarterback after he releases a football. Which does occur naturally, too bad its being exploited .Okay so now lets take an image of the going ons that you have explained of a curve being thrown and add too it a tilted body and head which raises and seperates further away from the body .Which puts a tremendous amount of strain on an isolated elbow. I believe by correcting the tilt your elbow has larger muscles ie. shoulder, chest helping stabilize and deliver the ball which relieves some of the burden on the elbow. I believe this should happen on all pitches. Imagine holding a large paint brush in your hand full grip and paint a wall in a downward direction to me thats a curve ,if you turn the brush down and inward using your wrist halfway down your brush stroke to me thats a slider. Im interested on hearing your sources. All the best Rich

quote:

Originally posted by MLBVeteran:
I believe by correcting the tilt your elbow has larger muscles ie. shoulder, chest helping stabilize and deliver the ball which relieves some of the burden on the elbow.

Correcting the tilt can also help avoid timing issues which would otherwise put more stress on the elbow and shoulder.

Mr. Rodriguez, glad to see you in this forum. I have some questions

1) Off-topic, do you think Barry Bonds was misportryaed by the media?

2) What do you think about the delivery tempo? I personally like fast tempo (like K-Rod or Tim Lincecum) but I also do think that there is a reason why Josh Beckett can throw 97mph with that slow delivery or Prior hitting above average velocity in the past also with that slow delivery. What do you think? Thanks

Stonecutter,
I dont know if the media had an agenda.

Tempos depend on the individual. My tempo was in-between. My tempo allowed my arm to be in the right position to throw the ball. So I gues that qualifies as a timing issue. I saw minor league coaches slow and speed up pitchers tempo in order to get their arm in a proper throwing position.There are many reasons pitchers throw in the mid 90s tempo is just part of it.Best of luck Rich

quote:

Tempos depend on the individual. My tempo was in-between. My tempo allowed my arm to be in the right position to throw the ball. So I gues that qualifies as a timing issue. I saw minor league coaches slow and speed up pitchers tempo in order to get their arm in a proper throwing position.There are many reasons pitchers throw in the mid 90s tempo is just part of it

Amen! Spoken as a true professional.

I found my LHP son threw best when he had a slight hesitation before going forward. His delivery was slow and it also allowed for a great pickoff move. I also agree with your earlier comment about the upright position. In my son's case I like him to bend forward at the belly to gethis chest horizonal over the plant leg forming a 45% angle before his back leg kicked up. I also like him to finish low with his ball hand down by his calf. The back leg kicks high and then comes around to square up to put him in a balanced fielding position.

Bobblehead

Your son sounds like he has it going on . Congrats. I liked the way you explained is chest facing the plate in a 45 deg. angle to his leg. Im interested in some of the drill or drills you did to simulate that position. All the best Rich

Rich he was a natural thrower and he just threw with a slow tempo. He did have MLB pitchers and scouts who checked him out over the years starting at 14-15. Basically they made minor adjustments. I like the stride foot to be in a straight line or close to it from the post foot instep so that he gets out over the stride leg and creates that 45% angle. He also has a very high leg kick.
The drill we used was the good old towel dril but his partner was a MiLB pitcher who has played a couple times in the MLB. I credit good mechanics to breaking down the motion and performing the process at a slow motion making sure each element was done properly. I also kept him honest as he would develop little habits that I picked up while videoing him and would go over the video with him. The next time he was on the mound you could see the wheels turning as he made adjustments to what we discussed.
We were very fortunate to have great coaching available to us as we had a MiLB team here and the Jays just down the road. To their credit they did get involved with local BB.
I don't think that most people realise how important good mechanics are not just to arm issues but control and the pick off move.
I watch a lot of BB and have seen guys who had control issues. After a couple years of college and good coaching I have seen some marked improvement with a couple of them. They simplified their delivery, developed great balance and stopped trying to bust the radar gun. They still throw hard but have gained control over their bodies. They actually throw strikes now. Hitting and pitching require good coaching and to me those coaches are the most important guys on a team. If your pitching and hitting breaksdown you are in trouble.

Towel drills are only beneficial if done properly.

If the discussion is in a PM why does it end up in aforum where no other posters know what is being discussed in private---especially from the Queen of PM's--TPM