Pitching: Shoulder Assessment - Client Relation

I will pass on what an ORTHO guy told me back when one of my sons was having some issues...

There is no scientific evidence that mechanical flaws cause a higher incidence of arm troubles. It kind of goes against what EVERYONE tells you, but that is what he told me & I tend to believe it.

I think that throwing is an un-natural act and to some extent, a higher power dictates whether your arm is going to take the abuse. If there was scientific evidence that mechanics had a lot to do with it, then we should all make our kids throw like Nolan Ryan or Greg Maddux.

As an example, there was a first rounder drafted back in '04 or '05 by the Brewers. He threw gas but the rap on him was he threw across his body (which would cause arm issues). However, he never developed arm problems until they "fixed" this mechanical flaw of stepping across his body. Haven't heard much from BA about this kid lately...kind of off the radar screen.

Fixing mechanical flaws may allow pitchers to repeat their delivery better (better command of their pitches) but as far as I am concerned, there is no evidence that it "saves" the arm. Until someone (not someone selling books or videos) shows me actual scientific evidence, I am not convinced.

Look at Mike Marshal's (former Dodger)website and look at what he believes is the perfect delivery. After watching that, you will be totally confused!

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
I will pass on what an ORTHO guy told me back when one of my sons was having some issues...

There is no scientific evidence that mechanical flaws cause a higher incidence of arm troubles.

With all due respect, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard from a medical professional. nc....do yourself a favor and find a more knowledgable ortho who has some experience with pitching mechanics and the bio-mechanical effects on the arm and shoulder. To claim that mechanical flaws have no correlation to increased probability of arm troubles is irresponsible at best.

And, btw, Nolan Ryan was clinically proven to be one of the most fundamentally sound pitchers in the history of baseball which is why he pitched (and quite well) to the age of 46. As for Maddux, he was known for a delayed rotation of some 82% which is rather unheard of and accounts for his HOF status as well. In short, mechanics is everything from both performance and longevity standpoints.

quote:

There is no scientific evidence that mechanical flaws cause a higher incidence of arm troubles. It kind of goes against what EVERYONE tells you, but that is what he told me & I tend to believe it.

I think that throwing is an un-natural act and to some extent, a higher power dictates whether your arm is going to take the abuse. If there was scientific evidence that mechanics had a lot to do with it, then we should all make our kids throw like Nolan Ryan or Greg Maddux.

I'm sure the throwing motion has something to do with the injuries. Biomechanics are definitely one thing to look at.

I have two concerns with arm injuries.

1.) Muscle imbalances and such leading to problems. Most arm injuries occur during the eccentric phase for the rotator cuff muscles. This is during the deceleration phase because so great of a force is put on these muscles.

2.) Simple overuse. Players are speciallizing more and more and the injuries just continue to rise. Players are throwing year-round and yet they aren't throwing in what I believe is correct. I believe long tossing for 7-8 months nearly everyday is going to help your arm more than hurt it. BUT you also need at least 3-4 months of rest as well to let your arm recover. Most players I've seen throw not enough long toss, but instead they throw 12 months a year including pitching.

A lot of it has to do with genetics. Take Mark Prior for expample.

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Originally posted by Bravescoach:

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
I will pass on what an ORTHO guy told me back when one of my sons was having some issues...

There is no scientific evidence that mechanical flaws cause a higher incidence of arm troubles.

With all due respect, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard from a medical professional. nc....do yourself a favor and find a more knowledgable ortho who has some experience with pitching mechanics and the bio-mechanical effects on the arm and shoulder. To claim that mechanical flaws have no correlation to increased probability of arm troubles is irresponsible at best.

And, btw, Nolan Ryan was clinically proven to be one of the most fundamentally sound pitchers in the history of baseball which is why he pitched (and quite well) to the age of 46. As for Maddux, he was known for a delayed rotation of some 82% which is rather unheard of and accounts for his HOF status as well. In short, mechanics is everything from both performance and longevity standpoints.

For every arguement you make that bad mechanics causes arm issues you can find a pitcher with no arm issues with those exact bad mechanics.

I threw 90 in high school with bad mechanics and walked a guy every 20 innings. I did not start having arm issues until they tried making me throw like Tom Seaver (who was perfect at the time.)

The ORTHO gave me a 20 page report on arm injuries in LL pitchers. I do not think it was some goofy idea he thought of on his own. There sure are a lot of guys getting TJ surgery these days, throwing with good mechanics - not too mention throwing a hell of lot less innings than Nolan Ryan ever did. Why is that?

http://www.youtube.com/jan09scott

Let's all get our pitcher's to throw perfect like this.

Every pitcher seems different. My son youngest son never had arm issues at all until he was changed from a 5/8 sidearm guy to more over the top. A few arm issues after the change, but mostly he lost velocity in the process. "Perfect mechanics" only work for guys who are made up in a way that such mechanics are "perfect" for them. Many others have been taught to throw another way than is best for them in pursuit of "Perfect Mechanics."

Just think of what would have happened if Tim Lincicum had been under the tutelage of a "perfect mechanics" guy.

quote:

Originally posted by FastballDad:
Every pitcher seems different.

There seems to be more truth to that, than anything else.

Conversely, my son had elbow soreness/Tendinitis soph year HS as an over the top guy and all those went away when they changed his arm slot to high 3/4's, 11/7.

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:

quote:

Originally posted by Bravescoach:

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
I will pass on what an ORTHO guy told me back when one of my sons was having some issues...

There is no scientific evidence that mechanical flaws cause a higher incidence of arm troubles.

With all due respect, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard from a medical professional. nc....do yourself a favor and find a more knowledgable ortho who has some experience with pitching mechanics and the bio-mechanical effects on the arm and shoulder. To claim that mechanical flaws have no correlation to increased probability of arm troubles is irresponsible at best.

And, btw, Nolan Ryan was clinically proven to be one of the most fundamentally sound pitchers in the history of baseball which is why he pitched (and quite well) to the age of 46. As for Maddux, he was known for a delayed rotation of some 82% which is rather unheard of and accounts for his HOF status as well. In short, mechanics is everything from both performance and longevity standpoints.

The ORTHO gave me a 20 page report on arm injuries in LL pitchers. I do not think it was some goofy idea he thought of on his own.

nc...I would be interested in reading that report if it's available. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the conclusion. You want a real good laugh, read some of Dick Mills' stuff.

You know, this dates back to about 8-9 years ago. I'm sure I pitched it a while back. My boys started doing arm care exercises and that seemed to do the trick. The LL study was shocking to me as I read it but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. My oldest boy has trouble flying open at times and he almost threw 150 innings last year. ??? Hasn't missed a start since his freshman year in high school.

Think about it, we have all this supposed knowledge about how to save arms, right? All these experts out there selling books/videos, right? Pitch counts to save arms - now even in LL.

With all this knowledge, we have more surgeries performed on kids (younger and younger)& now MLB guys throw less and less innings? Seems I remember Nolan Ryan throwing over 200 pitches in a game/4-man MLB rotations and today there seems to be more arm problems than ever with 5 man rotations & limited pitch counts & all this specific training techniques.

My question is why is this happening if we are so much smarter? I have yet to get an answer that is convincing to me. To me the last straw was when everyone was teaching Mark Pryor mechanics as "perfect." Two years after he blew his arm out, everyone started ragging on his mechanics. To me, that makes absolutley no sense other than people talking from a position of ignorance.

As I clean house over break I will see if I come across that study. Kind of doubt it.

Dick Mills? He is one of those guys that preys on people who think they are going to get 5 more MPH on their fastball if you follow what he says, right? Those guys are a dime a dozen. Can't change genetics.

I want to say thank you for the posts and that I really appreciate everyones imput. I respect everyone's honest evaluation.

Because I can't remember exactly everything noted, I will be responding as I re-read the posts. And, although some of you may not agree with my imput or may have questions or concerns, no worries, please feel free to respond.

I will start with what I discussed with the aforementioned father:

I told him how I had rotator cuff surgery after my sophomore year in college. At that point in my life I would say my mechanics were above average, meaning in comparison to elite level pitchers and what the human eye can calculate, I looked pretty immaculate. As some may probably be confused, as was I, I wondered how could I get hurt. But after further research and what I have learned up until this point, I told him most likely (and again, I won't know until I see his son), it probably will either be a kinematic sequence issue or a lack of functional strength. Noting that some big leaguers are either big shoulders guys, big hips guys, or both(which we can identify by just watching), we may see a shoulder fly open of some sort. Those who aren't both seem more dominant in either of the two and that is what's obvious. Our eyes can only calculate so quickly. It is imperative that we are able to identify a pitcher's kinematic chain sequence so that their progression happens in order. If it doesn't, you run into problems...Then I mentioned that he would be surprised how important functional fitness is. If its a muscle issue, you'll see why more kids have problems. We tend to throw kids on a elevation and ask them to throw a certain way, all the while their bodies are constantly changing. As this happens, their bodies memorize the pattern and most likely go against the grain.

Now this may seem cloudy, but some of it may be clearer once I address some of the posts. I hope this helps.

Now, the posts:

In regards to mechanical flaws: Each person has their own signature. Instructors tend to mold pitchers into what they think is the ideal model. However, everyone is their own model. Mechanically speaking, their are some alterations that may occur but in no way are we trying to say throw like Sabathia, George Sherill, Lincecum, and Maddux. And, the reason I reference them is because if you watch them, they all throw differently...and they are extremely successful. However, what they do have in common is their kinematic sequence; their ability to have certain body parts progress through the delivery correctly. I would have to disagree with throwing as an unnatural motion. We've been doing it for thousands of years. A tennis players' racquet is heavier than a ball and is unbalanced. Why don't they have more injuries?

I have seen Mike Marshal's stuff before however I am not convinced it makes you the most successful pitcher. I can't argue that it prevents injury because most of the information hammers on pronation. Pronation naturally happens on every pitch and every type of pitch. All in all, I think Doc Marsh is big on injury prevention and that may be the ceiling. If you put a pitcher on his knees he throws 80% of his max velocity. Through his methodology (I haven't tried it on the knees), but I don't think you get the same result. You need some sort of whip action.

Nolan Ryan, was pretty sound. If you look back at pictures, from his earlier days and the latter portion of his career, his improvement came from spinal alignment. This improved his kinematic sequence which improved his longevity. The same can be said for Roger Clemens. Both had made similar changes. Maddux was a freak and his kinematic sequence was perfect (Ironically, so is Tiger Woods'). His delayed rotation helped upset a hitter's timing. Roy Halladay: delayed shoulder rotation, not extremely overpowering, disrupts timing.

This leads us into Bulldog. He nailed it on the head with muscle imbalances. You can probably take 85-90% of all high school pitchers and do an assessment on them. Most of these kids are so, so misproportioned it's rather frightening. I think this attributes to why so little of a % of these kids can start at the collegiate level. I think this is why most of them start at the juco level or redshirt. Juco helps log immediate innings. I generally do an assessment on all kids I see. You can tell that a kid may develop some problems by the way his shoulder pops forward, out of the socket, when his hands are in back of him, in the praying position, facing down. You need to strengthen the muscles to pull that back. Functional Fitness takes care of that among other things.

I agree overuse is a predominant phenomenon. This subject may make me go on a tangent. I instruct every parent to monitor pitch counts. Little league championships don't pay the bills, major league championships do. You do need rest and recovery.

I don't have any thoughts on Prior. It may have been his time. His body may have had enough. It wasn't mechanics, or the towel drill, or anything else that I could see.

"For every arguement you make that bad mechanics causes arm issues you can find a pitcher with no arm issues with those exact bad mechanics." I agree with this statement. What people "see" or "think" is not a great assessment. The assessment should be on a person's kinematic sequence. We shouldn't make a pitcher throw like anyone other than himself.

Instructors should be teaching kinematic sequence, timing, and biomechanics, not "perfect mechanics" as to what they visually think is perfect.

CPLZ's son probably went to his more natural arm slot. 3/4's is not bad by any stretch. More importantly, and I don't know this, but that probably improved his spinal alignment to be more perpendicular than away from the arm's side. Did you know that throwing over the top only makes about 1 degree of difference from 60'6"? I know of a few well-known high school pitching coaches who stress throwing over the top. Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye.

To the last post:
Truth be told, that conventional wisdoms have been brought down from generation to generation. None of it is science-based. Think about this. When did baseball facilities really become rampant? The 90's? What eras have some of our most successful pitchers, with longevity, come from? Pre 1990's? Did we create a modern model last decade that is now not very credible? That may be up for debate.

I think a lot of people tried to recreate the wheel and now we have a lot of question marks. I mean, who really teaches in these facilities? The majority of them are former high school or collegiate players. And nothing against that, don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between being able to teach correctly and once being able to play successfully.

I apologize in advance for being so longwinded. My opinion is not Bible but rather a compilation of research, question, and application. I hope I was able to clear a few things up. I do understand that I have addressed the kinematic sequence a few times but not have cleared up as to what it exactly is. And I can't do that because I'd be giving away the key to the kingdom. I'm sorry. However, if you need resources, I have them. Just contact me. Furthermore, I hope that I have provided some great insight.

Thanks for reading.

my feeling on arm injury's are only based on what i've seen. by no means are they the least bit scientific. it seems to be the norm.

i think kids today throw with more velocity at an ealier age. the body isn't yet ready for this violent act, the strength to support isn't there yet. things break down.

those kids that throw with a greater velocity are ridden like a rented mule. the body isn't ready for the velocity yet it's being pushed beyond it's limit until it breaks down. all for the lure of the 6 dollar trophy.

maybe the term functional fitness fits my theory.

Wow, good stuff.
I beleive that mechanics may have something to do with it, but I agree that there is no scientific evidence to prove it right...or wrong. I also beleive that a pitcher that has been pitching for most of his life and successful should be left alone, those are HIS mechanics, he doesn't have to pitch like everyone else.
FWIW my son has impeccible mechanics, never had any issues, has had a few adjustments, one being a change to add velocity. Developed chronic bursitis since then, but found a physiological answer as to what it could be, an enlarged cortacoid bone which is not common and often goes unnoticed, adjustments to slot may have caused an issue (impingement), IMO, that was never present. Also,needs to do specific excercises (and has been in rehab) to improve muscle imbalance in shoulder. Unless you visit a sports specific doctor who may look further for opinions from some of the best in the country often times the problem is treated but not the cause.
BTW, there are many tennis players that do have major shoulder issues, you may just not hear much about it unless you are into tennis. I know this from the surgeon who recently corrected sons issue.

Do you know that a common procedure in swimmers is to remove the bursa sac, the unnatural motion is repeated so many times they just remove it to avoid tendinitous. The removal of the sac allows more room for movement. So IMO, these motions may be normal, but repeated over a period of time causes issue.

BTW, check out Priors work load in college, he was abused, it wasn't his mechanics.

Many years ago I began to watch college pitchers that had unusually high pitch counts, too many games without enough rest in college and pitched too much in HS to get to college. So many of them had either TJS or major shoulder surgery. Most with high velo. No one argues that over use isn't a major issue.

All in all, interesting discussion.
`

PP-

Really enjoyed the discussion. Hasn't been a lot of that around here lately...

We are all products of our experiences. I am curious of your opinion on why MLB pitchers throw so many fewer innings today? What would Fergie Jenkins stats line be like today? Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

nc42dad

i think back then,the pitchers that made a mlb team, were the strongest of the herd. there wasn't anywhere near the number of pitchers there are today. we also don't hear about how many didn't make it, or got hurt on the way up.

when you look at any one organization, with every team in the lower ranks. tons of pitchers, (they won't all make it). still only so many innings to go around, they are schooled to go 6 or 7 then the BP. even 5 can be a good day.

it would be nice to see how those guy's would do today.

Interesting point about the human arm----myself and many others who fish(ed) pro bass tournaments ,hundreds of casts a day in 8 hour periods over a two or three day span, developed problems with the elbow and shoulders---call it tendonitis or whatever you desire--I call it a result of using the arm the way the joints are not meant to be used---we do the same in baseball but hopefully not in 8 hour periods on back to back days

20dad-

Not sure about the "strongest of the herd." You know, back in the 60's, what was the population of the US? Today? Not to mention, the influx of Dominicans playing today...Koreans...Japanese. I guess it is a theory, and might be part of the equation but is just seems so glaring that across the board, the innings are just drastically down even amongst the MLB elite pitchers. Seems you would still see a few guys throwing 280+ innings like the old days, and now we don't. This has to be one of the great mysteries of the sports world IMO.

First, I am not sure why everyone compares the pitchers of yesterday to the pitchers of today. The game is so much different, the mound is different, the balls are different, the bodies are different as well as parks and the $$ are different, there are more teams, not sure about more games, even the geography of where temas are located are changed, making weather a factor.
I often wonder and doubt very much if many HOF pitchers would be HOF pitchers today. Yes one would think that better conditioning would allow a pitcher to put in more innings, but it doesn't work that way, realistically. Due to the uncertainty of the life of a pitchers arm, plus the money they are paid, who wants a multi million dollar a year guy sitting out a year due to injury. Therefore it makes sense, to me anyway, that with the uncertainty as to what makes one pitcher stay in the game longer than another, limit their work load.

TPM-

We compare EVERYTHING in baseball. HRs, BA, records, everything. So what is wrong with comparing arms of today to arms of yesterday? It is what baseball is all about. Fergie Jenkins would never throw 300 innings in today's era. It just makes terrific conversation - something that other sports cannot do to the degree we do with baseball. He obviously had it in him then & I am sure, if given the opportunity, he could do now too. (Now, he would just not be allowed! Unfortunate too IMO.)

Good discussion so far.I am also a believer of there is no such thing as perfect pitching/hitting mechanics.I am more into refining what a pitcher has and working to improve his natural mechanics.

I view MLB pitchers throwing 5-6 innings then going to the bullpen as nothing more than money related.The pitchers of today make an ungodly amount of money and I don't think the organizations are willing to risk over working them and risking injuries.

Profactory
Pitching,

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“what I told a pitcher's father”

I’m more interested in what you asked of the father than what your guess was from this inadequate amount of information that you gave to us?

quote:

The father- “he was opening up too much and was all arm”

The problem here is “Humeral lag” has nothing to do with proper shoulder rotation which always looks like and called opening up to soon.

The fix is to keep your humerus in line with your shoulders from transition thru drive and release.

quote:

“He’s a bigger kid for his age but doesn’t throw all that hard. Maybe that’s the reason”

Body size has nothing to do with velocity and little to do with mechanics. Velocity is genetically attained from higher percentages of fast twitch muscle fiber opposed to slow twitch muscle fiber. This is a physiological fact, the opposite belief of scouts and the uneducated baseball establishment is “Yard myth”.

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“I replied back with a thorough explanation”

How can this be done when all you have to go by is “he had some shoulder issues last year”? There are over 10 different main shoulder injuries to deal with all caused by mechanical issues.

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“And, I didn't label it to one thing but rather gave him a quick assessment of a few possibilities”

Kinemeatics and functional strength are the same excuses that are given by all traditional pitching coaches whom give this same incorrect parroted answer.
Did you find out what shoulder problems actually were being suffered?

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“Now, based off of the information provided (to which I didn't leave any details out)”

I’ve seen no details yet? The information given being complete leaves me thinking you actually did have enough information but in reality was far short to help the father.

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“I'd like to hear what some of you would of said in this situation”

What is the Child's biological age not chronological?
Does he pitch competitively more than the 3-month spring baseball season?
Does he pitch more than 2 innings a week during this 3-month period?
How severe were these shoulder issues?
What is the exact issue?
We’re they diagnosed by a Dr. to pin point the issues?
Was he given a medical release to start training and throwing again?
Does he “over early rotate” during his leg lift like all traditional pitchers?
Does his ball arm rotate beyond the driveline at pendulum swing like all traditional pitchers?
Does he bring the ball back when pendulum swinging with his hand on top (pronating) of the ball like all traditional pitchers?
Does he “grab” or “scapular load” during transition?
Does he produce “forearm flyout” from his centripetal imperative caused from the previous 4 questions?
Does he leave his (longitudinal axis) humeral line behind his acromial line (line running between the shoulder tips) during initial forward shoulder rotational and initial forwards ball drive?
Does he have a high (vertical) humeral and forearm vector or traditionally low (7/8 and down) one.
Does he supinate all or some of his pitches?
Does he fling his ball arm down and across his chest at finish?

quote:

“This should be a rather hot topic considering the rise of injuries in today's youth”

Generally people shy away from this issue and will not discuss it because they learn their healthy pitcher has all the mechanical flaws that produce all these injuries and more at some point in everybody using them whether they debilitate you or not.

quote:

“I told him how I had rotator cuff surgery after my sophomore year in college”

Did you understand that it was your mechanics that similarly produces centripetal imperative that all pitchers are trained with that caused your problems and the more important question, did you continue to use these injurious mechanics after you were released to train again by the Dr.

quote:

“It is imperative that we are able to identify a pitcher's kinematic chain sequence so that their progression happens in order”

Can you call out the 4 main disconnections in the perfect traditional pitching mechanic that you and all traditional pitchers perform that will never let you throw with this main kinesiological tenet, the kinetic chain.

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“important functional fitness”

Can “functional fitness” be attained thru non-Sport specific exercises?

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”A tennis players' racquet is heavier than a ball and is unbalanced. Why don't they have more injuries?”

Because they have learned to pronate their serves and forehand smashes and drive their overheads inside of vertical unlike the baseball establishment.

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’I have seen Mike Marshal's stuff before however I am not convinced it makes you the most successful pitcher”

You can make this claim by just observing training video?

I have taught it for over 12 years and it has culminated with this years signing in a first round pick in MLB and a first round pick in the NFL amounting in over 54 million in signing bonuses. All my pitchers at every level are pretty successful; we even have College strike out records that have been held since 1953.

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“I can't argue that it prevents injury because most of the information hammers on pronation”

Pronation is only one of the many tenets in the MTS; can you name just two more out of the 20 more?

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“Pronation naturally happens on every pitch and every type of pitch”

This is a major false claim !! What you see as pronation with supinated pitches is involuntary pronation after release where then forearm has supinated to full range of motion at end drive and the after release it only has one place to go, snap back in pronation involuntarily. Marshall teaches full voluntary pronation from all the way backs at the end of transition all the way through drive and release.
This is typical of instructors observing 30 to 60 frames a second grainy video where the ballistic activity only gives you a few frames to diagnose! When you have high speed clear video you will see what I am talking about.

quote:

“All in all, I think Doc Marsh is big on injury prevention and that may be the ceiling”

All in all, I think you really do not understand this mechanic enough to comment on it one way or the other and to do so negatively only muddies the water for people who would like to learn the truth about it. What is this ceiling you speak of?

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“You do need rest and recovery”

With the traditional motion you need recovery, rest has nothing to do with it!
Capacity is never the problem, cumulative injurious affect makes you think its fatigue.

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”I don't have any thoughts on Prior. It may have been his time. His body may have had enough. It wasn't mechanics, or the towel drill, or anything else that I could see”

Prior had one of the other “shoulder issues” problems “scapular loading” and then “grabbing” that grinded his humeral head within the Glenoid Fossa like a mortar and pestle. Absolutely mechanically obtained!

quote:

”Instructors should be teaching kinematic sequence, timing, and biomechanics, not "perfect mechanics" as to what they visually think is perfect”

The first thing instructors should be preparing for youth is “Do no harm” and this can only be done through correct non-injurious mechanical force application.

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”I know of a few well-known high school pitching coaches who stress throwing over the top. Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye”

You would do well to listen to these coaches instead of cracking wise.

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” I do understand that I have addressed the kinematic sequence a few times but not have cleared up as to what it exactly is. And I can't do that because I'd be giving away the key to the kingdom. I'm sorry. However, if you need resources, I have them. Just contact me. Furthermore, I hope that I have provided some great insight.”

What is it that you have provided but the sane old tired traditional thinking and now you are not even going to give us the keys to drive your Kinecar in to a wreck.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."AI

Nc42dad,

quote:

“I will pass on what an ORTHO guy told me back when one of my sons was having some issues”

This is a great idea since for 20 years these Orthos in association with ASMI have been studying then meeting every year for a symposium to eliminate pitching injuries.
For there efforts we now have 10 times as many injuries than when they started meeting.
You might think the first invitation would go to the top kinesiological expert on the throwing motion in the world but they exclude him because they do not want to hear that they all have it wrong by trying to salvage their prestious top half and bottom half traditional mechanics.
It’s a good thing the NFL has already listened to Marshall and made the change!

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”There is no scientific evidence that mechanical flaws cause a higher incidence of arm troubles”

This is what you should expect from somebody not educated in Kinesiology!

quote:

“I think that throwing is an un-natural act and to some extent”

Throwing has been evolving now for millions of years and well with in the range of motion and articulations of the human body, if we threw more like our spear chucking ancestors we would not be injuring our players.

quote:

“a higher power dictates whether your arm is going to take the abuse”

God said, let there be UCL degradation, evultions, bone deformities and debilitating inflamation for some chidren but not for others, so it was written, so it shall be done! NOT.

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“If there was scientific evidence that mechanics had a lot to do with it, then we should all make our kids throw like Nolan Ryan or Greg Maddux”

Nolan Ryan was constantly on the DL with many debilitating arm injuries his whole career and a severe injury finally ended it. Standard fair for the perfect traditional pitching motion!
Maddux had many non-injurious tenets including pronating all but one of his pitches and working at 90% effort. Better to emulate him with his higher MTS.

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“Fixing mechanical flaws may allow pitchers to repeat their delivery better”

Mechanical flaws are just as repeatable as being mechanically correct.

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“as far as I am concerned, there is no evidence that it "saves" the arm”

Maybe you were told that the changes you perceived were different when in actuality they were still the same and produced the same results giving you this concern.

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”Look at Mike Marshal's (former Dodger)website and look at what he believes is the perfect delivery. After watching that, you will be totally confused”

I teach all my clients how to perform and understand all of Marshall’s tenets first!
Then when they get towards a high school tryout I give them the useless leg lifted groin drive to a complete stop so that the coach does not cut them.

quote:

“For every arguement you make that bad mechanics causes arm issues you can find a pitcher with no arm issues with those exact bad mechanics”

I’ll take that challenge !, name these traditional pitchers whom have these non-injurious motions, even Maddux needed 3 days to recover from debilitating inflammation even with his low effort.

quote:

”Let's all get our pitcher's to throw perfect like this”

While Marshall called him “amazing” he also critiqued the over production of leg
throw and grabbing at transition that was being performed by this 12 tear old who while doing it wrong was praised for proving that even this over exaggeration of Marshall’s tenets was viable. He was throwing 55 MPh here with incredible movement. When he brought it to his little league the officials there said he would not be allowed to pitch this way so his father acquiesced and brought in the accepted useless crotch drive from leg lift.

Here is another example of a 12-year-old throwing full crow step motion who struck out
200 batters when he was 11 years old with 6 types of pitches, 3 that traveled towards the ball arm side of home and 3 that traveled to the glove arm side of home. He is throwing 73 MPH here while playing up as a 12 YO in a 13 YO club league. This kid will never injure his arm and can actually pitch as often as fastpitch softball pitchers if he was old enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eplyih8Ltmg


Here is a closer view, notice how he finishes fully rotated with his arm finishing straight at the catcher maximally pronated instead of across his chest that causes shoulder issues at the anterior labrum, Delts and rotator cuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE0xaaItzl0

Bravescoach,

quote:

“With all due respect, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard from a medical professional”

They believe that pitch counts and capacity are the culprits and never give mechanical advice that will leave then susceptible to law suits for giving advice that they are not trained to give. People need to quit giving Orthopedic surgeons the keys to the chicken coop. They have already proven to be kinesiologically challenged.

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results” AI.

quote:

“find a more knowledgable ortho who has some experience with pitching mechanics and the bio-mechanical effects on the arm and shoulder”

Effects are fine, It’s the affects they don’t get!

quote:

“As for Maddux, he was known for a delayed rotation of some 82%”

Closer to where Marshall has his pitchers, this is why Marshall has Maddux on the top of the list for modern pitchers and the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum).

quote:

“In short, mechanics is everything from both performance and longevity standpoints”

It’s been a long time since I’ve seen that true a statement here.

Bulldog19,

quote:

”Muscle imbalances and such leading to problems”

Name one and why the mechanism works this way?
Have you ever seen what a professional bowler looks like? Now there is some muscle imbalances but if you were to balance them out their game would diminish and I have witnessed this first hand. This is not the cause of one pitching injury! I’ve even seen rehab and other medical professionals call this out as the cause for ham string pulls when the culprit is actually Motor unit contraction and relaxation sequence neural miss-firing.

quote:

“Most arm injuries occur during the eccentric phase for the rotator cuff muscles”

Use “some” instead of “most” and your good here

quote:

“Simple overuse”

With the injurious traditional pitching motion you are correct, yet I’ve seen many injuries occur right after a long atrophying rest and in the first innings of games.
You may want to ask yourself why fastpitch pitchers do not suffer any of these injurieswhile pitching 3 times as much with the same maximal effort, it’s all mechanics.

quote:

“Players are speciallizing more and more and the injuries just continue to rise”

Injury rates among adults remain the same; the large rise is associated with youth pitchers. Adults suffer from lack of fitness due to pitch counts and rest during the fall and winter months exaserbating the mechanical problems with their traditional deliveries.

quote:

“you also need at least 3-4 months of rest as well to let your arm recover”

In adults rest = Atrophy, if the mechanics are non-injurious you recover within 16 hr’s after maximal training or competitive pitching, If you have traditional mechanics it’s a craps shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
I have taught it for over 12 years and it has culminated with this years signing in a first round pick in MLB and a first round pick in the NFL amounting in over 54 million in signing bonuses. All my pitchers at every level are pretty successful; we even have College strike out records that have been held since 1953.

Would you care to share the 1st round MLB pick? I would like to watch his video on MLB draft tracker.
Thanks

Sorry I goofed on the quote thing...maybe CPLZ can fix it for me? Done...

That's ok nc42dad, we got it and with all that bandwidth used, he should tell you who his first rounder is.

Wowzer! I think I may have injured myself reading that.

Yardbird, ....... you made my head hurt!

I remember learning, during my post graduate college days, the benefit of using long words and flowery language to impress my PHD'd Professors. Then in my real world "Executive" days, being taught "effective writing" That is to get directly to the point and use nickel words where you can in place of the "Quarter words" targeting the lowest level of your audience.

So, since I could be the "lowest denominator" in this audience in regards to pitching arm injures and biokinetics, I will use words I can understand and won't parrot Dr. Marshalls language.

When thinking of pitching arm issues you must seperate children (growth plates not yet mature/closed) from adults! Even in H.S. and College players, one must realize that growth plate closures are determined not by Chronological age but by "Biological age." The shoulder growth plate matures at "biological 19" as X-ray studies have confirmed.

The California (1960's) study of Little League players revealed that the majority of the "Williamsport" finalist were chronologically 13 yrs., old but X-rays revealed they were biologically 15! Hence the entire other thread conversation about early age differences/advantages in athletics is a relevant consideration!
It, the study, documented elbow and shoulder injuries caused by pitching, to immature joints with growth plates that had not yet closed.

IMO; pitching arm injuries in Adults can be significantly decreased through the use of correct biomechanical deliveries and proper throwing arm conditioning! You can be the best conditioned athlete, but if you haven't thrown enough, properly, to prepare your arm for the rigors of pitching, then you are NOT conditioned to protect your arm from injury! Dr. Marshall says, and I believe that he is correct, that "finishing the delivery bent at the waist, with the arm being too quickly "decelerated" as it comes across the body, causes serious injury to the shoulder/labrum area." Injuries to the pitching elbow are a result of bringing the arm too far behind the body at windup and all the stresses, on the elbow, then necessary to bring the ball to the plate in a direct line. Moreover, in the pitching motion, the arm is actually moving backwards when the front leg is driving towards the plate. A position player "crow-hops" allowing his arm to get to drive-line height so it can move foreward " with the front leg" when throwing! The position player "follows his throw" allowing the back, drive leg, to finish in front off his front leg. His arm does not come across his body thus can decelerate through a complete range of motion.

What do the Experts say .... Profac, Yardbird??

Prime 9- Welcome to IL! Don't think I've seen you around these parts before. Great points on chronological age.

I don't have any fancy degree on this stuff so that probably does not qualify me to even discuss "throwing a baseball."

However, I'm still confused on this mechanics causes injury thing. If we know what causes arm injuries then I would like to know the names of some MLB guys who are "going to get hurt" because of their poor mechanics. They seem to get hurt pretty frequently so many of them must be doing something wrong.

I am open minded but I just don't seem to see enough proof. Back in '03 everyone here was talking about how perfect Mark Prior was mechanically...after the fact, now everyone says he was wrong. I don't get that but I am trying to understand!

Yardbird-

"if we threw more like our spear chucking ancestors we would not be injuring our players."

My Minor league son wants to know how "spear-chucking ancestors" equates to throwing baseballs and who was around to analyze how they threw?

I'd still like the names of those first rounders...would love to study what they are doing.

These are Albert Einstein quotes, AI should be AE; stick to coaching pitchers.

Albert Einstein

As father of 15 year old pitcher/catcher, I'm becoming more and more convinced of the value of a few months off between fall ball and spring practice. An eleven year old with shoulder pain should (in my un-expert opinion) try rest first and then address the mechanics issue after an extended period of not throwing. I'm as guilty as the next baseball dad about pushing my kid too hard. It took a while to sink into my thick skull, but I'm now a proponent of rest and sound mechanics.

Just my two cents.

I have always been a rest guy and now after this season I am even more convinced of it. My son has always shut down for 10-12 weeks and this year we have patched in some rest in August, and only now because of the need for fall showcase events. This is also the first year he has had any discomfort in his arm. He had a very mild case of tendonitis, which I belive because of all of the fall throwing.

Because Jr's and Sr's need to throw for recruiting reasons in the fall they need to carefully plan their shut downs. The ASMI and Jobe folks are not stupid. Listen to them and make sure you get your rest.

two kinds of shoulder pain I have seen is on the front side to middle and seems to be caused by bringing the ball up to high and throwing with more than a 90-100 degree angle between the arm at release and the torso.

The other shoulder issue I have seen is in the backside and stems from guys who do not rotate their bodies enough as they bring the ball to release point and their arm gets flung around their body which pulls the muscles more than usual on the backside.

I also notice at least with one guy a muscle imbalance where he does too many bench presses with heavy weights and so his frontside is real strong but the backside is weak in comparison.

As for proper mechanics I have always gone along with the idea that if it looks good and smooth and they are properly conditioned they should have no problems. It's where you see what appears to be jerky or out of balance rotations with body parts flinging out and back in that worries me. Smooth= good while jerky= bad. There are some exceptions as always but if you look at other sports, the healthy and top guys of their professions always perform smoothly from start to finish and have well conditioned athletic builds.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I also notice at least with one guy a muscle imbalance where he does too many bench presses with heavy weights and so his frontside is real strong but the backside is weak in comparison.

Labrum tears in the shoulder are generally considered a deceleration injury. That supports exactly what you are saying, not enough muscular balance front to back. Besides normal band work to strengthen the smaller muscles and rotator cuff of the shoulder, working on lats primarily and traps secondarily are the considered the best injury preventive resistance training for pitchers. Another great area to concentrate on, for both injury prevention and increasing velocity is strengthening the core.