pitching speed

Too many factors are at play to give much of an accurate answer. At age 15, some kids are pretty much done growing (already have full facial hair, bulk, etc), while others may not finalize their growth for another 2-3 years.

My guess (uninformed as it may be) is always that a 6'4" 180 pound freshman throwing 85 has less projectability than a 5'8" 150 pound freshman throwing 80.

But it's all conjecture.......I'm sure this threadwill get lots of replies!!

Krak,

I know what you mean, but couldn't you have given a bit closer examples?

A 6-4/180 freshman throwing 85 is already a prospect. And he could end up being 6-6/250 throwing upper 90s when he grows up.

The 5-8/150 throwing 80 could project very well, but he could end up being 5-9/165 throwing 85 when he grows up.

You can't simply say that the smaller guy projects more than the bigger guy... because sometimes the bigger guy ends up growing more than the smaller guy... Making an even bigger difference!

I think you might have meant a physically mature 6-4 vs a undeveloped 5-8. But that's still a lot of catching up for the 5-8 to do.

Tobette, Have to agree with Krak... there's too many factors to be considered to give a good answer to your question. If your a freshman throwing 83-84 you've got a chance to be real good!

PG, thus my reply caveat, 'as uninformed as it may be'

I think a lot of what I say comes from the fact that I was that skinny 5'8" kid until age 16 or 17 when I finally grew another few inches, and then another inch to reach 6' at age 19. I just wouldn't ripen!!

Young Krak may need to stay on the vine for awhile, too!! He's hitting 80 now as a 15.5 y/o 5'9" 144 pounder. My fingers are crossed that that's not all there is!! GROW, little fella, grow!!

I imagine the Big Unit was 6'4 as a freshman when his growth spurt finally kicked in!

Thanks. We were just wondering much more speed he will have by his senior year. He is doing speed and strength. Again, Thank you for your information.

Krak,

I think with your caring advice and great attitude, your son will do as well as he possibly can.

That's all any of us can ever ask for! But here's hoping the "little fella" keeps growing!

Tobette, there is just no way to know what will happen with any given kid. That is the bottom line.

Scouts are obsessed with a pitcher's size, to the point that they are often blinded to things that would otherwise not be overlooked.

I have been watching numerous youth pitchers over the years. Some of the big kids that many considered were very "projectable" are not much better as seniors than they were as freshmen.

Whatever size your son is, & wherever he may be in his physical maturity, he needs to focus on honing his mechanics. And on developing baseball specific flexibility/strength. Most importantly, he must develop an incredible mental toughness. As Tommy Lasorda has pointed out, mental toughness is the one thing that a pitcher absolutely must have to be successful.

Good luck to your son.

Thank you again. We are very lucky to have a coach that is interested in developing a kid instead of just wearing out his arm. My son needs to develop another pitch. He is pitching fastballs, knuckle balls and not sure what you call it, but a ball that comes in high and sinks while curving. Coach says it is not really a "curve ball". I have heard that at this age we don't want him throwing "curve balls" because he could blow out his arm. Thank you again for all your knowledge.

He needs a changeup. I would recommend trying both the circle change and three finger change. After a while, he can settle in on the one that works best for him. If you would like some info on these grips, let me know.

The key thing to the c/u is to keep all the mechanics identical to the fastball. No slowing the arm down, no dragging the foot. The grip alone will take off the proper amount of speed.

A freshman is old enough to learn the curve - if it is taught properly and he doesn't throw it much.

If it rotates like a curve ball and breaks like a curve ball, it's a curveball or some variation thereof. It doesn't matter whether you call it mystery pitch, a football slider, or a cutter. If it quacks like a duck it's a duck. Believe what you see, not what the coach tells you.

quote:

Originally posted by Tobette:
.... Coach says it is not really a "curve ball". I have heard that at this age we don't want him throwing "curve balls" because he could blow out his arm. Thank you again for all your knowledge.

Krak, I think your post was well meant but very ill informed....a 6'4 freshman is still 6'4. The 5'8 freshman is still 5'8. That 6'4 freshman is still going to get stronger and learn to use his size better. Not in all cases but in the 95 percentile a 5'8 freshman isnt going to reach 6'0. He will be lucky to to reach 5'11. When iut comes to pitching size matters unless your a junk baller. The taller the pitcher is the more of a dwonward plane the pitch is on thus resulting in groundballs and strike outs. A nasty slider will be a more effective pitch for a taller pitcher, just physics and angles. A taller pitcher with an 85 mile per hour fastball will in most cases be more effective than a 5'11 pitcer with the same velocity, especially if he keeps the ball down in the zone and works the outside corner....ask Leo Mazzone if I aint right. He has made an outstanding living with this philosophy. We are talking abut starters here not setup men and relievers. If you have size and talent your a prize, talent with no size...just anohter pitcher....IMHO

Make sure he works hard on conditioning. I may not have much credit to my saying since I'm only 15 but from what I know nobody gains as much velocity as possible by doing nothing. Practice and conditioning and I'm sure he'll gain velocity if not then accuracy.

We put alot of enfasis on velocity. The average for a frosh or a senior doesn't matter if he can't command and control, change speeds or lacks movement. Control means being able to hit a spot or keep it in the strike zone. Command means being able to throw a pitch to a location anytime you want and having confidence in that pitch. Pen work and lots of it along with a trainer to check your mechanics, work on grips, and learn fundamental pitching are things that will benefit any young pitcher regardless of his velocity.

Coachric

Topic may have been dead for a while, but. 5-8 is not short for a freshman. Im a 5-8 freshman and im the 85% percentile on the height chart. Im projected to be 6-3. I dont see how the 5-8 doesnt make it to 6 foot when its 85% percentile in height. Not huge by any means, but 5-8 aint short.

5-8 as a freshman could be short, or it could be tall. I'm a sophomore and was 5-7 last year. I'm still 5-7 now. My dad's 5-7 and my mom's 5'6 so I'm probably not going to be that tall. Another kid I know was 5-7 last year and now he's 5-10, you never know. As for velocity, I played freshman baseball last year and the average velocity was around the high 60's. There were freshman that played j.v. who were higher so I'd say the average for a freshman was around 70. I watched varsity games and would say the average was high 70's-low 80's.

I was throwing around 74 as a frosh 79 as a sohp. and 84 as a jr. The only things that you can do is throwing,lifting,and running. If you are 5'9 as a Frosh. you can't make youself be 6'2 as a Sr. that's totally out of your controll.

quote:

My guess (uninformed as it may be) is always that a 6'4" 180 pound freshman throwing 85 has less projectability than a 5'8" 150 pound freshman throwing 80.

Look at Jake Peavy Rich Harden, pedro Martinez. Small guys throwing in their 90's. You dont have to be a big guy to throw a 90mph fastball. It's all on what kind of arm you have.

"Krak, I think your post was well meant but very ill informed....a 6'4 freshman is still 6'4. The 5'8 freshman is still 5'8. That 6'4 freshman is still going to get stronger and learn to use his size better. Not in all cases but in the 95 percentile a 5'8 freshman isnt going to reach 6'0. He will be lucky to to reach 5'11. When iut comes to pitching size matters unless your a junk baller. The taller the pitcher is the more of a dwonward plane the pitch is on thus resulting in groundballs and strike outs. A nasty slider will be a more effective pitch for a taller pitcher, just physics and angles. A taller pitcher with an 85 mile per hour fastball will in most cases be more effective than a 5'11 pitcer with the same velocity, especially if he keeps the ball down in the zone and works the outside corner....ask Leo Mazzone if I aint right. He has made an outstanding living with this philosophy. We are talking abut starters here not setup men and relievers. If you have size and talent your a prize, talent with no size...just anohter pitcher....IMHO"


Srsly, just because someone is big doesn't automaticly make them a good pitcher or that they can throw a ball hard. I am 16 years old at 6 feet tall and i throw harder then a guy that is at 6'3. And he is a year older. Sure size matters, but you have to have the talen to go with it.

quote:

5-8 is not short for a freshman. Im a 5-8 freshman and im the 85% percentile on the height chart. Im projected to be 6-3. I dont see how the 5-8 doesnt make it to 6 foot when its 85% percentile in height. Not huge by any means, but 5-8 aint short.

Projected to be 6-3??? Yeah, if you're a 12 year old freshman!

BTW 6-3 is about 98 percentile.

my son was a 5'7" freshman in high school who is now a 6'4" freshman in college. There are a lot of late bloomers out there who are overlooked by coaches in high school, yet, because of hard work and perseverence due to lack of size, they excell at the next level. my son is now pitching in college and the sky is the limit for him. Not one scout or coach has ever asked him how well he did in his freshman year of high school or how tall he was at that age!

quote:

There are a lot of late bloomers out there

Most people bloom in a fairly predictible way at least by freshman year. Odds of a 5-7 freshman reaching 6-4 are tiny. Only about one or two boys in 100 reaches that height and few of them are 5-7 at age 14. If Dad is 6-6 there might be some realistic expectation.

HSBBW is a great discussion group, but realism isn't its strong suit.

My oldest son was 5'6' 120lbs at 14 entering high school, he is now a 17 year old senior who is almost 6'4" 185lbs and still growing. My younger son is 14 and the same size as his brother was at the same age. Guess I just have late bloomers. You just never know.

Height is like pitching speed. That I do know. Often very inflated when the means to measure aren't at hand.

I know one 6-7 HS pitcher who bacame a 6-4 college pitcher this year! Last year's 5-11 HS short stop is playing D-1 at 5-9 (actually the kid looks like an honest 5-11 to me)

There are growth charts on the web (look in Google) that project how tall a kid will eventually be. They aren't perfect.