Do you feel that throwing 56 pitches on Friday afternoon and then throwing 60 on Sunday evening is too many for a 14u player? He does not complain about soreness, fatigue, but it seems that charts say they need more rest.
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Welcome to HSBBW quiesedba .
Most 14yr olds are probably not going to complain or say anything when asked to pitch this much. My biggest concern is your son's coach that would ask him to. He needs to have his head examined IMO.
He may not complain about soreness, fatigue, etc. but rest assured it exist. Not to mention the stress and breakdown of muscle, ligaments, etc. that he has in the arm.
Most 14yr olds are probably not going to complain or say anything when asked to pitch this much. My biggest concern is your son's coach that would ask him to. He needs to have his head examined IMO.
He may not complain about soreness, fatigue, etc. but rest assured it exist. Not to mention the stress and breakdown of muscle, ligaments, etc. that he has in the arm.
quote:He may not complain about soreness, fatigue, etc. but rest assured it exist
So if we get to 60 pitches on Friday we need to take the rest of the weekend off? Or throw an inning or two?
Check out the ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) guidelines on youth pitch counts.
For 13-14 yo, they recommend a max of 75 pitches per game and 125 pitches per week. It is generally thought that 1 hour of rest is needed for each pitch thrown.
By those guidelines, junior should rest until at least Monday. If it were my son, I would tell him that anything over 50 pitches, and he gets 4 days rest before the next outing.
Never let the youth's arm condition weigh into the decision. They all feel great. Injuries occur when
1. Fatigue (muscle fatigue, not player fatigue) causes minute breakdowns in mechanics
2. Micro tears and lesions are not afforded enough healing time.
For 13-14 yo, they recommend a max of 75 pitches per game and 125 pitches per week. It is generally thought that 1 hour of rest is needed for each pitch thrown.
By those guidelines, junior should rest until at least Monday. If it were my son, I would tell him that anything over 50 pitches, and he gets 4 days rest before the next outing.
Never let the youth's arm condition weigh into the decision. They all feel great. Injuries occur when
1. Fatigue (muscle fatigue, not player fatigue) causes minute breakdowns in mechanics
2. Micro tears and lesions are not afforded enough healing time.
A good rule of thumb is one hour of rest for each pitch thrown before pitching again.
quote:Do you feel that throwing 56 pitches on Friday afternoon and then throwing 60 on Sunday evening
I think what is often ignored when counting pitches is the number thrown in the pen before the game and the number of warmup pitches between innings. Add those numbers onto the 56 thrown on Friday and then determine if you should be concerned about overuse.
With all due respect RZ, you can't do that. All pitching recomendations by ASMI take those into consideration in the pitch count numbers. If you counted them in pitch count totals, you would essentially be counting them twice.
I'll throw this out as well. I'm not sure I agree with the 1 hour per pitch thrown recommendation in all circumstances. I think if a kid throws his limit, that is a great recommendation. However, if a kid goes in and throws 2 or three innings and say 30 pitches, 30 hours is a long time to wait when the kid may not even have been tired. I don't have an answer for how long to wait under those conditions, but if a kid capable of thowing 80 pitches only throws 30, a day and a half off is a long time for probably only getting warmed up on the mound.
Just food for more debate.
I'll throw this out as well. I'm not sure I agree with the 1 hour per pitch thrown recommendation in all circumstances. I think if a kid throws his limit, that is a great recommendation. However, if a kid goes in and throws 2 or three innings and say 30 pitches, 30 hours is a long time to wait when the kid may not even have been tired. I don't have an answer for how long to wait under those conditions, but if a kid capable of thowing 80 pitches only throws 30, a day and a half off is a long time for probably only getting warmed up on the mound.
Just food for more debate.
quote:All pitching recomendations by ASMI take those into consideration in the pitch count numbers.
All I'm saying is that when a coach or parent counts pitches many times they are counting only those with an AB attached. When guiesdba says a pitcher threw 56 pitches on Friday, did he include the bullpen pitches, the between inning pitches?
Not being the sharpest fork in the drawer, maybe I'm misunderstanding what is meant by the statement
quote:ASMI take those into consideration
Does that meam that ASMI bases it's numbers on...
Bullpen + AB + Warmups = Total pitches
or
Are they saying with a typical bullpen and typical warmups, an AMSI based pitch count is X. If that makes any sense
If the later, what is typical. I've seen kids at all levels rapid fire 50 pitches in the bullpen, and, I've seen others get ready with 15 off the bullpen mound. I've seen situations where a kid goes to the pen 2-3 times a game. IMO, with youth baseball, if the AMSI is going to make standards that they publish for others to follow they count any pitch off a bump and then base their findings on an "REAL" pitch count.
What I am saying is that when ASMI gave their recommended pitch counts, they are talking about actual game pitches. They did take into account an "average" pre-game warm up, and the 8 warmups prior to each inning.
So if ASMI's recommendation is 75 pitches for a 14 yr. old, pre-game bullpen and between inning warmups are NOT included in that number, but they took into consideration those throws when coming up with the recommended game pitches. I hope that makes sense.
If you wanted to count pre-game warm up and between inning warmups, it would be impossible to throw within their guidelines. Let's say a pitcher throws 30 pitches in pre-game. If they are going to pitch 4 innings at 8 pitches between, the total warm ups would be 62. That would only leave 13 pitches to complete 4 innings.
So what ASMI did is take that average (something along the lines of what I mentioned above), then said you have 75 actual game pitches. They are not included in the pitch count recommendation, but are considered in coming up with the recommendation.
Keep in mind, other than LL, it is just a recommendation. Some kids may not be able to go that many and need to come out before that. Some are capable of going more before becoming fatigued.
I understand what you are saying, but in the real world there are so many variables that I think they are doing the best they can to come up with some kind of standard. Besides, in reality, pregame warmups and between inning warmups are generally thrown with much less intensity than actual game pitches.
So if ASMI's recommendation is 75 pitches for a 14 yr. old, pre-game bullpen and between inning warmups are NOT included in that number, but they took into consideration those throws when coming up with the recommended game pitches. I hope that makes sense.
If you wanted to count pre-game warm up and between inning warmups, it would be impossible to throw within their guidelines. Let's say a pitcher throws 30 pitches in pre-game. If they are going to pitch 4 innings at 8 pitches between, the total warm ups would be 62. That would only leave 13 pitches to complete 4 innings.
So what ASMI did is take that average (something along the lines of what I mentioned above), then said you have 75 actual game pitches. They are not included in the pitch count recommendation, but are considered in coming up with the recommendation.
Keep in mind, other than LL, it is just a recommendation. Some kids may not be able to go that many and need to come out before that. Some are capable of going more before becoming fatigued.
I understand what you are saying, but in the real world there are so many variables that I think they are doing the best they can to come up with some kind of standard. Besides, in reality, pregame warmups and between inning warmups are generally thrown with much less intensity than actual game pitches.