If D-1 college play time is said to be based on Athletic ability-and not personal--- then should a player with 14 errors already this season have his buns on the bench?
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Not if he is hitting and they have no player better than he at that position
Does tenure enter into your formula for playing time?
Great point Pat
Alot of the pitchers have been complaining for he is the reason they racked up a loss. And is tenure a good enough reason for good of the team...if he does produce at the plate then why not DH him and let a benchwarmer give it a try(in a non conference game) if nothing else but to light a fire under the kid?
Bob:
So, let me guess. You have a dog in this fight?
So, let me guess. You have a dog in this fight?
"a loss". As in 1 loss? I always find it tough to blame a team loss on 1 player. As for coaching tactics to pick a kid up, I agree. And yes, IMO, tenure comes into play when a junior or senior has put their time in and has been, possibly, an intregal part of the team, and possibly a team leader, other than the coach.
And i'll add that I think there's an issue that there is a subset of players complaining about a team mate. How about that same subset picking up that player? As a coach, I would end that **** real quick.
And i'll add that I think there's an issue that there is a subset of players complaining about a team mate. How about that same subset picking up that player? As a coach, I would end that **** real quick.
Poptime--No, my kid plays a completely different position. So, no fight here! just an observation.
And it is niave to think that players don't get upset at other players--just as co-workers don't ever get ticked at other co-workers when it effects their work load. Kids are going to talk no matter what. Do coaches keep a pitcher on the mound when they can't throw strikes or hit the strike zone? Then why not give another kid a chance if this kid can't be consistant--no matter how many years they held that spot.
And it is niave to think that players don't get upset at other players--just as co-workers don't ever get ticked at other co-workers when it effects their work load. Kids are going to talk no matter what. Do coaches keep a pitcher on the mound when they can't throw strikes or hit the strike zone? Then why not give another kid a chance if this kid can't be consistant--no matter how many years they held that spot.
In our case the coaches kid plays shortstop, starter since freshman. last year junior H.S 2 out of 3 routine groundballs were an error. H.S. national record, maybe. This year so far he has been better but still the weakest in the league, we have 4 who would be better there.
Bob, with the information you have posted, it wasn't too tough to find the player.
He is a junior who was All Big East as a freshman and sophomore, was a Louisville Slugger Freshman All American, and he was a regional all american selection last year.
Looks like he had a very good summer in the Cape in 2007 also which might be further evidence of his ability.
As a freshman he made 7 errors in 58 games, last year he had 20 in 58 games.
I also notice a game summary where he threw the tying run out at home, was on base 3 times, had a stolen base and the like.
I am guessing those errors are in his head and that makes it tough.
Based on his history alone, he appears to be a very, very good player.
Why would you not let him play through it, especially if he is playing hard and helping in other areas? If I were his coach, I sure would based on the skills he clearly has as a player.
If I remember, ARod struggled mightily in the field and his errors were a daily visual on ESPN. This player isn't ARod, but on paper, he sure appears to be darn good and seems to have earned the opportunity to play through this. He is still helping the team it appears in many other areas.
He is a junior who was All Big East as a freshman and sophomore, was a Louisville Slugger Freshman All American, and he was a regional all american selection last year.
Looks like he had a very good summer in the Cape in 2007 also which might be further evidence of his ability.
As a freshman he made 7 errors in 58 games, last year he had 20 in 58 games.
I also notice a game summary where he threw the tying run out at home, was on base 3 times, had a stolen base and the like.
I am guessing those errors are in his head and that makes it tough.
Based on his history alone, he appears to be a very, very good player.
Why would you not let him play through it, especially if he is playing hard and helping in other areas? If I were his coach, I sure would based on the skills he clearly has as a player.
If I remember, ARod struggled mightily in the field and his errors were a daily visual on ESPN. This player isn't ARod, but on paper, he sure appears to be darn good and seems to have earned the opportunity to play through this. He is still helping the team it appears in many other areas.
I think most of the time it is based on ability. There are times when it is not and those times are difficult to understand.
quote:And it is niave to think that players don't get upset at other players--just as co-workers don't ever get ticked at other co-workers when it effects their work load. Kids are going to talk no matter what.
Bob ...
I watched our son through 3 years of college and now into his 4th full season as a pro and never once has he expressed his displeasure (on or off the field) 'when they aren't playing well behind him' to anyone other than his girlfriend (now wife) and/or us. This is something that players need to do as they mature ... it is a tough lesson but they need to remember that everybody has bad games/bad stretches/slumps/whatevers and get on with controlling what they can control. And that the reason a struggling player is still in the game is entirely up to the manager/coach (and in some cases, the front office of a MLB club).
Had a wonderful chat with our son last night as he is getting ready for another season in AA (hoping it is short-lived) and he told me that one thing he wants to do this year is to uplift teammates who might be having a rough go of it (hitting, fielding, pitching), so that they understand the concept of teamwork etc. It is even harder in the minor leagues to develop a real 'team mentality' as every player is trying to beat someone else out of a job. But it can be done at the pro level and should be emphasized at the college and high school levels.
So, altho I understand your comment above, I think that we as parents need to foster a different attitude from our sons when they face these dilemmas in their lives. And as far as I am concerned, it needs to start at an early age for our boys so that it doesn't become a problem when they are adults.
JMHO FWIW
quote:Originally posted by Bob Sanders:
Poptime--No, my kid plays a completely different position. So, no fight here! just an observation.
And it is niave to think that players don't get upset at other players--just as co-workers don't ever get ticked at other co-workers when it effects their work load. Kids are going to talk no matter what. Do coaches keep a pitcher on the mound when they can't throw strikes or hit the strike zone? Then why not give another kid a chance if this kid can't be consistant--no matter how many years they held that spot.
Tony LaRussa put Ryan Franklin in late in the game last night with a two-run lead I believe. The night before Franklin got the loss after the starting pitching did excellent and the offense seemed to have some fire.
Sometimes you just gotta get a player right back out there after a bad outing so he can work through it and it doesn't linger mentally.
I understand getting someone back out after a bad outing. But why continue to let someone play when their defense and offense is lacking when you have someone, atleast as capable, if not more, on the bench?
One of the craziest fist fights i have ever seen was between 2 of my own team mates in college out side a bar. But on the field they were brothers and realized that they needed each other to succeed. PLayers argue and fight with each other all the time, but they have to be on the same page when it comes to the team. For those on your sons team who think this kid's performance is the reason the team is losing, they better not strike out or make an error, ever. Obviously the coach has him pitching for a reason. The team needs to be on board with that decision.
'At least as capable' in whose opinion? Pretty much the only opinion that counts is the coach's.
Unless one has attended every practice, one doesn't know what the alternative to the error-prone player is.
Baseball can be looked at from lots of different perspectives. Outboarding parents and their dogs in various fights
, it can also be as simple as a coach who is more offensively minded than defensively, or even a balance between the two. I'm a great believer that robbing a home run is as good as hitting one, as it's the same one run difference in the game. And errors that lead to runs had better balance out with RBI's by the "offending" player, or an alternative needs to be developed.
But I've also heard coaches praise a player's "great game" because he hit a hr, ignoring the error(s) that gave the opposition multiple runs. (Before ya'll think me insensitive, I would say the hr deserves praise, not his 'game')
Unless one has attended every practice, one doesn't know what the alternative to the error-prone player is.
Baseball can be looked at from lots of different perspectives. Outboarding parents and their dogs in various fights
, it can also be as simple as a coach who is more offensively minded than defensively, or even a balance between the two. I'm a great believer that robbing a home run is as good as hitting one, as it's the same one run difference in the game. And errors that lead to runs had better balance out with RBI's by the "offending" player, or an alternative needs to be developed. But I've also heard coaches praise a player's "great game" because he hit a hr, ignoring the error(s) that gave the opposition multiple runs. (Before ya'll think me insensitive, I would say the hr deserves praise, not his 'game')
Are you saying, if a player can hit a home run every once in while, that's all that matters? Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.
Also, In who's opinion? What if the asst coach/recruiter told a player he knows he's better, but doesn't know why he is playing. How does that shake out?
Also, In who's opinion? What if the asst coach/recruiter told a player he knows he's better, but doesn't know why he is playing. How does that shake out?
quote:Also, In who's opinion? What if the asst coach/recruiter told a player he knows he's better, but doesn't know why he is playing. How does that shake out?
To me that shakes out as a communication problem in the recruitment and coaching staff. Maybe the source of the issue. But that's the not the players fault. There are 2 issues here. Players blaming losing on a team mate and the coaching decisions made on this team. In this case it turns out that one is tied to the other. Sticking with a pitcher, even when you are losing, doesn't seem like an issue to me. Blaming that pitcher for your loss is an issue.
quote:Originally posted by Bob Sanders:
If D-1 college play time is said to be based on Athletic ability-and not personal--- then should a player with 14 errors already this season have his buns on the bench?
Errors don't indicate the player is not athletic or not doing his job.
I just looked at a team's stats, the two with the highest amount of errors are the best and play the most difficult positions to field.
Your bat is your most important stat. DH position has a different mind set.
It doesn't matter what the players think one bit, it's what the coach does that matters.
Didn't Arod have the highest amount of errors at his position last year?
quote:If D-1 college play time is said to be based on Athletic ability-and not personal--- then should a player with 14 errors already this season have his buns on the bench?
Coach's team,.... coach's call.
What if you are about half way through your season, you're way below .500 and the starters that have been used are not getting the job done. At what point does a coach say, "alright, time for some changes." Shake it up. I'm not talking about one bad game, or the player that plays the toughest position. I'm talking about a general lack of urgency to perform, because noone fears being pulled from their starting position. My son's high school coach would have stroked with the number of errors. Frankly, my son's high school team would probably win against this team right now. I'm not a coach and don't claim to know as much about baseball as most of you. That's why I asked.
Many coaches at all levels are willing to give up defense to have better "hitting". By that term, they usually mean some kid who hits long fly balls and some home runs rather than the kid who gets on base more often and hits for extra bases [better slugging] but is not a home run hitter as a rule. But regardless of how you define a great "hitter", the issue is, late in the game why don't you put in the best defensive player you have at the position? Especially if you are ahead. The Red Sox often put Ellsberry in for Manny Rameriz late in the game during their very successful 2007 post season. Are they just stupid?
To say that you must allow a great hitter to play through his terrible defense for a whole game because of his head is to put a player before the team. Why not let the great defensive player play through his bad hitting on the same grounds? Because it is not best for the team?
TW344
To say that you must allow a great hitter to play through his terrible defense for a whole game because of his head is to put a player before the team. Why not let the great defensive player play through his bad hitting on the same grounds? Because it is not best for the team?
TW344
There are errors and then there are ERRORS.
Who is keeping the stats?
A ss could make a amazing stop deep in the hole throw from his knees and the the first baseman doesn't pick it on the short hop and the error is on the ss ( I always thought that if the ss can make a great catch so should the 1st baseman, can you tell I'm a ss mom?) I have have seen a ss run out into out field (no he didn't call off the out fielder) make a diving play, miss a ball he never should have gotten close to and get an error.
Errors are not a indication of whether a ss is doing his job.
Who is keeping the stats?
A ss could make a amazing stop deep in the hole throw from his knees and the the first baseman doesn't pick it on the short hop and the error is on the ss ( I always thought that if the ss can make a great catch so should the 1st baseman, can you tell I'm a ss mom?) I have have seen a ss run out into out field (no he didn't call off the out fielder) make a diving play, miss a ball he never should have gotten close to and get an error.
Errors are not a indication of whether a ss is doing his job.
njbb,
good points. also from a stats position the SS will get more balls over a season than most other infield positions on the field,except second base.
no player will play a perfect game every game.
It seems to me that too many parents are ready to pick apart players when they make mistakes. we were watching opening day for mlb nad there were about ten errors.
What really gets me is a kid who is putting up huge numbers, makes 98% of plays and when he makes an error parents are groaning.is it jealousy? I dont know, as a coach once told me When your son is doing really well, people get jealous and they want their sons to be the star so they begin chipping away at the star every opportunity they get. pretty sad but i see it happen over and over, to many players.
Coaches are there 5 days a week, they put the kids on the field that they choose, live with it, there is nothing you can do to change it.
sometimes like as you stated the fielder will attempt a play that is a great play and not make it then its an error, what some people dont realize is a lesser athlete woulnt have a chance to even make that great play.a good athlete makes great plays look easy, its not as easy as it looks.
good points. also from a stats position the SS will get more balls over a season than most other infield positions on the field,except second base.
no player will play a perfect game every game.
It seems to me that too many parents are ready to pick apart players when they make mistakes. we were watching opening day for mlb nad there were about ten errors.
What really gets me is a kid who is putting up huge numbers, makes 98% of plays and when he makes an error parents are groaning.is it jealousy? I dont know, as a coach once told me When your son is doing really well, people get jealous and they want their sons to be the star so they begin chipping away at the star every opportunity they get. pretty sad but i see it happen over and over, to many players.
Coaches are there 5 days a week, they put the kids on the field that they choose, live with it, there is nothing you can do to change it.
sometimes like as you stated the fielder will attempt a play that is a great play and not make it then its an error, what some people dont realize is a lesser athlete woulnt have a chance to even make that great play.a good athlete makes great plays look easy, its not as easy as it looks.
May I present an example:
Granted we are not HS ball but two years ago we had a game where our SS who had been with us for three years made three errors in the game---I wasn't there - I was at home having suffered a minor stroke--- but the coaches and players kept me posted continually----would you believe I got a call early Sunday morning from a parent wanting to know why we didn't pull the kid---WOW --he had been with us all this time and you want me to yank him because of one lousy game---the answer was simple--" If it were your son would you be happy if I pulled him in the same circumstances"---by the way the kid with the three errors got the hit to win the game and as college frosh is now starting at UNC GREENSBORO
Coaches have to make decisions and it is not always by impulse
Another example: we had a young man, he was a SS, with us a year ago and in his first game for us he stunk up the joint. He came from a small HS program and I wasn't sure if he wasn't pressing because of the huge jump in talent level.--After the first game I asked him if he would be more at ease switching to second base in the next game---he looked me in the eye and said clear as a bell" Coach I f----ed up---Short is mine for this tournament." No more errors and he is now a frosh at a Top 5 Division II program and contributing right out of the box. he started every game for the rest of the fall for us at either SS or second base
Each kid is different and each situation is unique unto itself
There is more than just athletic ability that goes into making the decisions and every kid on our squad wants to do what is needed to help the team win
Granted we are not HS ball but two years ago we had a game where our SS who had been with us for three years made three errors in the game---I wasn't there - I was at home having suffered a minor stroke--- but the coaches and players kept me posted continually----would you believe I got a call early Sunday morning from a parent wanting to know why we didn't pull the kid---WOW --he had been with us all this time and you want me to yank him because of one lousy game---the answer was simple--" If it were your son would you be happy if I pulled him in the same circumstances"---by the way the kid with the three errors got the hit to win the game and as college frosh is now starting at UNC GREENSBORO
Coaches have to make decisions and it is not always by impulse
Another example: we had a young man, he was a SS, with us a year ago and in his first game for us he stunk up the joint. He came from a small HS program and I wasn't sure if he wasn't pressing because of the huge jump in talent level.--After the first game I asked him if he would be more at ease switching to second base in the next game---he looked me in the eye and said clear as a bell" Coach I f----ed up---Short is mine for this tournament." No more errors and he is now a frosh at a Top 5 Division II program and contributing right out of the box. he started every game for the rest of the fall for us at either SS or second base
Each kid is different and each situation is unique unto itself
There is more than just athletic ability that goes into making the decisions and every kid on our squad wants to do what is needed to help the team win
quote:He is a junior who was All Big East as a freshman and sophomore, was a Louisville Slugger Freshman All American, and he was a regional all american selection last year.
Those players are not exactly standing in line to sign NLI's. SS usually, if not always, has the most errors. BTW D1 is a long way from anything even resembling professional baseball. It is alot closer to high school that pro ball, imo. Longer bus rides and practices are sometimes the only difference.
I understand what all of you are saying about a player trying to make a spectacular play and end up with an error. I'm talking about routine functions of a position and barely hitting their hat size. Then you consider I have already proven myself more qualified, my hitting stats are better and I will have to play behind that person another 2 years? What do you do? Sit there or look for more fertile ground, so to speak.
quote:Originally posted by sportsfamily:
I understand what all of you are saying about a player trying to make a spectacular play and end up with an error. I'm talking about routine functions of a position and barely hitting their hat size. Then you consider I have already proven myself more qualified, my hitting stats are better and I will have to play behind that person another 2 years? What do you do? Sit there or look for more fertile ground, so to speak.
Good coaches don't let good players sit if they can contribute. They find a way to get them into the game, even if it means changing position (if the player is coachable and can do this). The player sitting and not contributiong in any manner is doing so for a reason. JMO.
No, sportsfamily, I didn't mean I thought hr's were more important than defensive plays that prevent runs; I meant I've seen coaches who (it would seem) feel that way. Different coaches have different approaches.
Sometimes the better the player, the harsher the scoring. When I coached, I used to refer to these as Ozzie Smith Errors. Ozzie could get to a ball few other MI's would have tried for and then....no out, it's scored an E (unfairly, I believe), despite the fact that it would have been through the hole for a hit with most ss.
As scorekeeper, I go by the JC rule. If, had the play been completed, I would have exclaimed "JC, what a play!" no error. And yes, on catchable balls, the E goes to the receiver.
Sometimes the better the player, the harsher the scoring. When I coached, I used to refer to these as Ozzie Smith Errors. Ozzie could get to a ball few other MI's would have tried for and then....no out, it's scored an E (unfairly, I believe), despite the fact that it would have been through the hole for a hit with most ss.
As scorekeeper, I go by the JC rule. If, had the play been completed, I would have exclaimed "JC, what a play!" no error. And yes, on catchable balls, the E goes to the receiver.