Players that disappear from rosters

Quit, flunked out, busted for booze, drugs, missed practice, pregnant GF, permanent injury, ineligible, missed the bus, no money to fund balance of scholarship, no playing time, failed physical, didn'tlike the coach, not competive enough, too competitive, incoming signee potential, recovered medical redshirt, drafted, homesick, drafted player doesn't sign and returns to play,

Yep, it frees up the money.

Just like work.

No play no pay.

Same risks in ALL conferences just more of it, the higher up you go.

grandslamfan - Its a good question you ask at its most basic level, that is, what is the risk?

FormerObserver has given you a fairly complete list of the reasons.

But I would like to add that there are some programs known for running players off (remember Indiana basketball under Bobby Knight?). And there are some programs that will stick by the player through most stuff. What I am saying is that it might depend on the school and the coaching staff. Do your research school-by-school.

Grandslam,

In college, there are players that get told,

"You can't play on this team."

Handled many, many different ways, though.

Almost 50 on the fall roster.

In a month only about thirty will be there.

The coaches pick the best team that they can pick out of the players they invited to compete for a position.

Some just don't make it.

I guess you will never really know why they left...And so you can never estimate the risk of getting cut.
If a kid has talent, is a good kid, no drugs, good grades, the risk will be less.

Jump in, play hard and take your chances...

(I give up trying to make a logical decision about this one)

Grandslam - You are making excellent observations. You will notice some schools post their "Fall Roster". On some websites you can find last years roster along with this years - compare. He needs to have all of the information he can have on a school and coach before making a decision. I've always thought that your "gut" tells you a lot too!

quote:

Jump in, play hard and take your chances...

quote:

I guess you will never really know why they left...And so you can never estimate the risk of getting cut.

Naw, but the coach wouldn't have him out there if he didn't think he had a chance..........

This question -- ironic for our family situation. And I don't know if you really ever have a true picture of the "risk". As we discuss here all the time -- have a realistic assessment of your son's talent -- and let him follow his dream. And, as always, it's good to have "plan B".

FO is right. Lots of extra players in the fall. 54 players showed up last fall at Jr's school. In the end 14 red shirts, 2 or 3 quit, a couple transfered out after the fall, a couple got hurt and didn't play.

You should always go to a program where the coach is just as excited to have you on his roster as you are to be on the roster.

Anytime there is an imbalance the future is murky.

Formerobserver gives a pretty good list of reasons. There are probably a dozen more. Some of them you really need your imagination for.

This is true whether it is a top D1 program, a small D3 or a local JUCO.

Never let the fear of getting cut keep you from joining the team.

Have a back up plan if you want, but go for it while you can. As the old saying goes "You can't steal second base with your foot still on first".

quote:

Originally posted by AParent:
This is true whether it is a top D1 program, a small D3 or a local JUCO.

AParent is right. This doesn't only happen at top DI schools. There are many, many reasons.

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THREE things EVERY parent and player should do...and few do...and no one ever talks about doing..and no one ever suggests... and fills in some gaps...

First....Before your '06 signs...go to the baseball website of the school...go to the news section...look at the list of LAST novembers/springs/summers recruits - those players who have JUST arrived on campus, because this is your close competition. If you are a 1B and there are 3 1B's recruited (who have just arrived on campus and do not yet show anywhere on any roster, or media guide) you had better know.

Second....Check those of the year before that. Compare that to the list that actually made it to the team. Then "google" the "lost" players.

Thirds...Compare team rosters year to year, "google" the "lost" players.

All very interesting reading.



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Take a careful look at the rosters for as far back as you can. See if you can find a pattern. When our son was looking at schools we tried to find a team that NEEDED him. He's a RHP. The school he is at needed to replace 250 innings. They only had 6 returning pitchers due to the draft and graduation. We felt that he would at least get a chance. Pitching Coach sat down with us and detailed each pitcher who was returning, their strengths and weaknesses and each new pitcher and exactly where he sees them. He was pretty much right on the money.

Before Spring 2 freshmen pitchers had left the team. One a RHP with a large scholarship. He was just burned out and wanted to move on with his life. A year later he is still at the school. The other a walk-on who saw the writing on the wall. 2 more freshmen left during the season. One just packed up his room, quit, and moved home. He had been getting pt and was doing well. One quit due to "health issues". They all leave for different reasons.

Our son was given every opportunity in Spring. Started out great, fell apart in the middle, and closed the season out strong. Was placed with a team in the Coastal Plain League and had a great summer. Life is good. Several of his friends from high school, who were very high profile and had their choice of lots of schools, committed early, either left during their first year or saw little or no playing time.

It's all about finding the right fit. Son truly wanted to go to an excellent, smallish college and play baseball 'cuz "that's what makes school fun". He also wanted a respected D-1 program. The pieces didn't come together until June of his Sr. Year.

.

Nice post ....Mom



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At son's school a few players left after fall practice. They knew they wouldn't be starters and wanted to go to smaller schools where they would play. This spring, a few other's left, because they knew that they would not play next spring as starters. I do know of one player in our area who left, I heard he was not happy with life there. Another version, I heard he forgot to leave his ego at home when he arrived at school.

Never turn down an offer because you feel you might get cut. However be leary of the 50 man roster.

Also, I noticed that some players that play at Clemson are pretty versatile. They may have been recruited for a particular position, but end up playing different positions from year to year. Our third baseman played second base the year before, as an example. This can be discussed with the coach before a decision is made.

To further elaborate on Panther Dad's statement, if you have a realistic assesment of your son's talent, you won't be worried about his being cut.

GSF,
For the most part the disappearing player is the walk-on, recruited walk-on, and the non-scholarship player at the larger universities. Many players want to put on the uniform of the major conference teams. Therefore there will always be players that fall into the classification of “little fish in the big pond”. These players may realize a year or two later they should have gone to a “smaller” school where they would have more playing time and end up transferring. Some just decide to hang up the cleats because they realize a bench is a bench no matter how prestigious the university. There were players at my son’s college that had never gotten on the field during a game. Some rostered players were not even allowed to take BP with the team. I don’t think this is a “fault” of the major colleges. Players know the situation going in. MomX4 talks about “fit”. Fit is probably the most important factor in selecting a baseball program. I have talked to some of the parents whose sons were in this predicament and surprisingly most parents and players accept this as the way it is. They say their sons like being “part” of this SEC team even though they don’t participate in the games. I doubt that any of these players receive much in the way of athletic scholarship money so staying doesn’t burden the scholarship coffers and their leaving would not free up scholarships. Their leaving is not reported by the press and for the most part only the coaches and the players are aware of it ever happening. Never the less these players are part of the team. One non-player was even recognized at a banquet last year for his dedication and hard work at practices. On senior day, when the senior players are recognized for their contribution and are presented their uniform displayed in a frame, one player had played four years and had only ONE official at bat in those four years. A great young man, set a great example, and he was a team leader... (from the dugout).
Fungo

Very good topic. I'd often seen 10-14 freshmen entering a school, but only 4-5 seniors on the roster, and have wondered what happened to the rest of that class. Our oldest is now one of those "disappearing acts".

My '03 went to his D-2 college as one of 12 freshmen. Of the 12, 5 are now there as juniors playing baseball, 2 quit baseball but didn't leave the school, 1 is playing football, 4 transferred. Biggest "change reason" is playing time. Ironically enough, 3 transfers came to the school this fall and in checking them out, all three had very minimal playing time at their previous school so the door swings both ways. My son liked the school and his teammates (with an IM list to prove it), and had a nice scholarship, but ultimately was on the low end of the totem pole for playing time and wanted to (1) play and (2) be closer than 7.5 hours from home. I suspected he was "ignored into transferring" as he was getting starting pitcher money but apparently wasn't rated that highly by the staff, but then who really knows, other than the head man? The coach was very classy about how the transfer was handled, even to the point of calling the coaches at schools in which my son was interested ,and the new school is working out very nicely (except watch out for "credit massacres" on those transfers) so no complaints.

Sometimes in life, you just take things in stride, make your decisions, deal with them (remembering there has only been 1 perfect person on this earth), and move on. I think in a nutshell this would describe a lot of those disappearances.

This is a great topic, and really there's not much left to say.

Observer 44. Your advice is good but not new comes up annually about this time.

What I tell kids/parents who ask me is a just a quote from the opera "Faust" ( ).

Better to "rule in hell than serve in heaven." If most losses are playtime related go somewhere you will be an important piece to the team. You'll know how important you are by what they offer you.

It's nice to go back to your hometown and have the cutest girl in the party introduce you as "Johnny plays for STATE" but it's embarrasing when one of the guys follows it with. Well that's not exactly true is it Johnny you don't actually play just suit up -right?

imo some good points offered, the one that stands out has already been highlighted by grateful

quote:

Originally posted by AParent:
This is true whether it is a top D1 program, a small D3 or a local JUCO.

we more looked at #'s of JC "in-transfers" each yr as an indication of rostered players leaving,
but I'll also add this about checking roster history
if a pattern doesn't jump out at you, don't frustrate yourself looking for one that's not there

also, in my experience, role players who are loyal to the program by working hard on the field & in school, see that loyalty returned to them by the staff - -
after all "most" coaches realize they're doing what's expected of the college player they recruited - - "getting after" their baseball work & academics

sebaseball had an intersting article recently on transfers and proposed changes regarding releases

an interesting proposal regarding releases -
to request & grant releases only in a "window" around the exit meeting at season-end, virtually eliminating late summer transfers that are mostly caused by summer league "illegal" tampering/recruiting

It really is very simple--the kid who wants it and is confident will stick it our and make it work---the kid who cannot cope with not starting, geez did he start on HS varsity as a frosh?, will not make it. Egos need to be parked at the entrance door !

In my eyes it is not the parents assessment of talent that is involved here---it is the talent and desire of the player that makes it click. Obviously the boy has talent if he has a scholarship but does he have that special desire to compete and win that starting spot

Keep in mind also that many kids are playing college ball just to satisfy mommy and daddy and their desires---we had a kid at one of our events this summer who told my coaches that he was there only to make daddy happy--he didnt even want to play ball in college. Kids like this evaporate rapidly in the fall

TR:

There are lots of situations and lots of reasons why certain players make it and others don't. A lot of it has to do with "fit", which cannot always be readily determined ahead of time, despite great efforts to do just that.

But, I must say, most parents I know have done a great job with their sons and really don't deserve broad derision any more than operators of showcases deserve derision.

Most folks are simply trying to do what they believe to be best for their sons and nothing more or less. Some just happen to be better at it than others.

The other part is this: College baseball is great, but if and when it does not work out, it is not the end of the world or even that big of a deal. Some of those kids actually have a positive impact on society in the end as doctors and lawyers and businessmen and mothers and fathers etc....

quote:

But, I must say, most parents I know have done a great job with their sons and really don't deserve broad derision any more than operators of showcases deserve derision.

You got it all wrong. Parents are idiots. Coaches get the kids scholarships.

If the truth be known, kids earn scholarships. It flat creeps parents out when folks sprain their elbows patting themselves on the back when a player gets a ride. I see it all the time though.

jemaz

Wherein do you read derision ?

TR:

Not a big deal, but the mommy and daddy part did not strike me as a voice of support. But I understand that I could be misinterpreting that.

jem

jemaz

That is fact--it happens

Not knocking parents but facts are facts--it happens

Wonderful topic that can be summarized as follows:

quote:

Why do college teams have so many freshmen and so few seniors?

That isn't the case in HS. I can't recall a single kid dropping off our HS team other than by being cut or getting nearly zero playing time the first two years. Apparently just about every kid on our team is CRAZY about baseball.

Of course HS players almost never transfer schools to get more playing time. None of ours has dropped out.

I can see some of our HS players still interested in playing the game at age 100.

So what does college do to these kids that so many quit for good in a year or two???????????????

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quote:

Originally posted by micdsguy:
So what does college do to these kids that so many quit for good in a year or two??????????????? .

The reasons are many of the ones listed by FormerObserver in one of the first responses.

In college, the coach doesn't care a whole lot about keeping kids happy by playing them...certainly much less so than in HS. Most college rosters are 32-40 players in size...all HS stars. Beyond #20, not many will play, if at all. The bottom 10-15 players at some point may decide that the commitment is not worth the interference with their social life and/or academics. Some will quit, some will transfer. Not many of that group of 10-15 will sit on the bench all 4 years and be happy with it.

Lots of good points here. Thanks to everyone.

I was just comparing from year to year (guys who actually played) and then left. I know the fall cuts happen as well.
And I have googled the ones who left, to find out what happened, finding only a few.

Someone mentioned going where you are wanted, but what we are experiencing is coaches playing texas hold'em with their real thoughts on your talent in order to manage your expectations about scholarship money. This makes it more difficult to figure out if they want you, need you, or are just finding a breathing body. I guess the scholarship offer you get speaks the most about how much they want you. But you always hear from coaches about how they only get 11.7 and this is all they have to give you.
One other thought, I've heard coaches try to balance playing their investments (high scholly players) with winning. In the end, I think winning wins, but if you are on a low scholarship you may have limited chances in the beginning.

quote:

coaches playing texas hold'em with their real thoughts on your talent in order to manage your expectations about scholarship money

GSF,
that really IS a great way to describe that part of the recruiting process - keep in mind that other players that he's recruiting aren't showing all their cards either

with his recruit list it's a big table and as the "hand" plays out more cards will be on the table for all sides to gain info to make decisions, some players will "fold" & commit to other schools

but as long the coach doesn't "fold" on you and go to another table, you're still in the game





if a parents accessment of talent & desire to advise in finding the fit is a hinderance, why are we all here??

Just my opinion, but FIT really isn't as hard to decifer as some folks seem to think.

If a coach is REALLY excited to have you on his team you will KNOW it. He won't play games with you.

Now, on the other hand if the coach REALLY wants you on his team, but could EASILY replace you with a half a dozen other kids of like talent, then YES, he may very well play head games with you over scholarship money.

That in itself should tell you volumes.

You have to listen to what they say - you also have to listen to what they don't say.

quote:

but if you are on a low scholarship you may have limited chances in the beginning.

quote:

Now, on the other hand if the coach REALLY wants you on his team, but could EASILY replace you with a half a dozen other kids of like talent, then YES, he may very well play head games with you over scholarship money.

quote:

If a coach is REALLY excited to have you on his team you will KNOW it.

Grandslam, if it makes you feel any better, this is all so much easier understood AFTER you have been through it, and difficult to see any logic while you are on the way in.

If the average scholarship is 33%, then I think they are all low. So, more than 33% is high. Not more than 2,3-4 on the team with more than 50%.

My observation is that the amount they have "invested" really doesn't affect whether a player makes the team or not. But, they ususally don't miss on the kids they "invest" a higher amount, so it may SEEM that those players have "less risk". Not so, in my opinion.

Once you are one of the players on the fall try out team, you have a "chance" that no one else has.

The "chances" of playing at a major D1 university are just low.

So, when they offer you a "low" amount, I think that's still an indication that you are being given a "chance".

My son is fortunate to have an "above average" amount, but I think his "chance" of making the team are only slighly better because the coach knows how he has performed in the past.

An above average offer is ONLY and INDICATION of that players "chance" to make the team.

I think it is affected more by the "market" price and what it takes to pull a player from one school and away from another.

Very fun and intereting thread certainly influenced by perspective.

Some of you may be interested in checking out how many sophomores are returning to the schools they committed to as freshman. Here is a good starting point: Signing list compiled by PG Wood Bat

Reality is college scholarship money is ridiculous. Most of the players play for the love of the game while the universities and coaches make a bunch of money. You don’t see this kind of turnover of players in football or basketball. Why? Full scholarship money.

Grandslamfan...seems that you are now "2 for 2" in starting interesting and active topics ! Thanks for keeping the board lively!

I am lucky to have a circle of baseball parent friends going through the same thing right now. These are the questions we debate daily. I have a pretty good assessment of my sons talent from independent, unrelated sources. I do not wear rose colored glasses.
We all are trying to be realistic and find a good fit. I LOVE all your feedback. I think I am getting it (finally)
One more comment about baseball as a business...
This could start a whole new thread...
It is a business, but that does not excuse coaches for unethical behavior. There are right and wrong ways to behave. Baseball business or any other kind of business. I am sick of people excusing coaches behavior as "it's a business".

quote:

Originally posted by grandslamfan:
If you check out the rosters of teams in the top conferences you will notice players missing from year to year. They weren't seniors, they weren't drafted, they weren't injured. I know some transfer, but what happens to the rest? Are they cut from the team? (Does this free up scholarship money) Do they stay at the school as a regular student (paying full price)?

I checked out just 2 ACC schools and they had about 14-16 new players in the years I checked out. (one had - 11 early signs, 1 late sign and 4 jc xfers) and only lost 10 (seniors and drafted jrs) What happened to the other 6?

I just want to have my son understand the risks of playing in the "top" conferences. (I know you need to ask what normally happens to a players scholarship from year to year.)

About a year or two ago we had a thread that was similar to this one, and many of us who have gone through the process gave our opinions on what school to choose. I have gone through the process twice, and my advice is to go where you are wanted. The scholarship offered is a good guide to how much you are wanted. The stories given by the coaches and how they are hamstrung with only 11.7 is their problem. Our problem is our kid and "how much do you want him?".Once you get there, unless something drastic happens, stay there and get your degree.

They key thing that happens when a youngster transfers is the possibility of not having credits that transfer with him. If you stay at one school, you won't have that problem. If you are going to school just to play baseball, then don't pay any attention to what I am saying, as it won't matter if you transfer or not. My observation has been that there are more scholarship guys that transfer than walk ons who do. The reason is that the walk on is there to go to school and the scholarship guy will leave because he got beat out of a starting job. This will be the 8th year that I have had a son in school on scholarship, and that is what I have noticed in the 8 years.

BB Scout I agree with you 100%.

Grandslamfan I agree with you as well. Not all large DI schools behave in the manner that has been talked about. I told you about one DI school during a chat that I would not send my son to - I have been told exactly what you say. "It's a business". Well, I wouldn't want to work for certain employers that exhibit certain behaviors neither! I understand they have pressures, expectations, money, etc. to deal with, but they also have human beings to deal with. I wanted my son to go where he was respected as player and person!

bbscout....good post!

Some players transfer because that is what their parents think they should do; it isn't always the kid who wants to do so.

I would say to those of you who believe that college baseball coaches are making a bunch of money, or that they make unethical decisions because it is a business.... There is not a large percentage of college baseball coaches making large amounts of money, and if you compare it to football and both men's and women's basketball coaches, baseball coaches' salaries are much smaller. Coaches coach because they love coaching baseball, not because of the huge salaries.

I do realize, that when talking about any population, that there are exceptions.

Grateful, I hope my post didn't sound like I thought that there are HUGE numbers of coaches that play games that I and many others would consider unethical. I don't - I just know that there are some out there. I've met some. However,the best part of the recruiting process when I look back are the coaches that we met during son's journey. Like I said before, most parents can identify the programs that have issues if they just do their research.