Playing College Baseball For Full Price

I will hope for FA of some sort but the wife and I prepared to go full freight. We put money into a 529 program over a decade ago and our budget always included private school so the combined will get us by at least a year or so, then I will leverage assets and go deeper into debt or possibly sell an organ. My son is considering HA schools and to keep my sanity I have only compared the state school v. private cost less than 10 times. I think sages in here stated college is an investment for the 40 years. I am not bashing state schools but my kid does not want to go to really big school.   

We're in a similar boat 2022NYC.  We've saved since the day he was born, but he is only interested in very HA schools, most of which offer no merit aid.  He was looked at a bit by a few HA D1s, but he was enthusiastically recruited by the HA D3s.  And, there has been some pretty serious sticker shock when we run these HA D3 schools' net price calculators.  We are financially comfortable, but we are not rich, and it is going to be hard to come up with the kind of cash they say we should be able to come up with each year.  It has been a big eye opener, and there has been a lot of hand-wringing and number-crunching at the LuckyCat household over the last month because we are determined to pay for it without taking out loans.

If our son had been willing to look lower down on the US News and World Report list of best liberal arts colleges, there would have been very generous merit aid offered that would have made it much more affordable.  We have an older son at one of these (very good, but lower ranked) schools now and he got more than half the cost of attendance in scholarships for all four years!  But, our younger son was not interested in those schools.  His goal (not ours) was to use baseball to open the door to one of the best schools in the country.  And he has accomplished his goal.  

We do qualify for some need based aid, and our son understands that he will do work study, but it is still going to be a challenge coming up with our "expected family contribution."

Yes, Francis, affordability is a big factor with college selection, baseball or no baseball.  Like so many others, son had to narrow his list of schools due to our inability/lack of willingness to pay $$$, particularly without a focused major that would clearly provide a strong return on investment.  Again, everyone's path is different.  For many, JC and then state school is the only viable path due to affordability. 

You comment about most kids who play coming from families who can afford travel, lessons, etc.  I think you may be surprised at how many kids that play in college do not come from wealthy households.  They have to be more creative in mapping their plan.  Many don't even have a plan.  They are just very good players and so they are seen/found anyway... but still can't afford expensive private colleges.

Then, there are a great many "in the middle".  There are so many ways that college tuition can be subsidized.  It isn't always academic or needs based or athletic money.  But it can take a lot of digging to uncover.  This is an area that probably isn't talked about enough here.  Very often, a student athlete will have to choose a school that isn't the optimal academic or athletic fit because it just isn't realistically affordable.  I think very few would recommend paying any significant additional amount of money for your son to choose one college over another just so he can play baseball.

Some, at some places, maybe, in some situations and not others.  It's possible, maybe probable, but not definite, within some parameters. It falls in the category of could be, but might, or even probably not. Though exceptions are sure to be exampled, or imagined.

Sorry to be sarcastic. Many different levels of baseball and funding in college. If at a fully funded school attempting to be competitive, the amount of the scholarship is directly related to how much the school values the player. If the player is not offered a scholarship, but a chance to walk on, he will have a lot of players in front of him the coaches value more.

I would completely agree with a lot of the above. The struggle to pay for both athletics and ultimately college is very real for a lot of us. But I will add...still look at the aid calculators for the schools your son is considering. Some HA schools have very large endowments and the amount of financial aid, the type of aid and the threshold for receiving aid varies significantly from institution to institution. You might be surprised. 

College is like buying a car. Don’t go by the sticker price. See what they offer. Then negotiate. Bowdoin College (a NESCAC) is 73K. The average financial aid is 47K.

@RJM posted:

College is like buying a car. Don’t go by the sticker price. See what they offer. Then negotiate. Bowdoin College (a NESCAC) is 73K. The average financial aid is 47K.

I'm not sure how much like buying a car it really is.  Yes the sticker price is not necessarily the price, but at schools that only offer need-based aid, there isn't a whole lot of room to negotiate.  They have a formula for divvying up institutional aid.  The financial aid folks can tinker with it a bit , but you're going to end up paying about what they say is your expected family contribution is.

If $47K is the average at Bowdoin, roughly half of families are getting less than that.  It behooves everyone targeting Bowdoin (or other schools like it) to do the net price calculator and proceed assuming it will probably be about that amount, give or take maybe five thousand.  There is a handy third-party calculator that gives low, high, and best estimates, that you can use called MyInTuition. https://myintuition.org/  But, unless you have extenuating circumstances (a parent has lost a job, extensive medical bills, etc.) the EFC generated by most net price calculators on college websites these days is fairly close to the mark.

If you have time to kill, what is interesting is plugging the same numbers into multiple schools at MyInTuition and seeing different results.  That's because different schools choose to look at, and count, parents' assets differently.  Some schools, for instance, do not count home equity at all, some count it up to a point but cap it (usually 2.4 times income), and some schools count the whole shebang.  So schools with the same sticker price can really turn out to be very different prices for the same family.

I will add that, after two sons at private schools with full financial aid guarantees, it has been the case that we could afford what they said we could afford, even if I was sometimes dubious when we got the annual financial aid calculation.  Two schools calculate need quite differently, too.  Your situation will vary from one year to the next, which is why they re-calculate it each year - a huge pain each January, but I see why they do it that way.

I think D1 and D2 schools with athletic scholarships, but with no guarantee of financial aid, would be quite different though.  On this site, it's always pointed out that if you have no athletic scholarship, you can be easily cut, especially in this age of over-recruiting.  I have seen it play out that way with kids who had financial need scholarships.  That is especially brutal.

@LuckyCat posted:

I'm not sure how much like buying a car it really is.  Yes the sticker price is not necessarily the price, but at schools that only offer need-based aid, there isn't a whole lot of room to negotiate.  They have a formula for divvying up institutional aid.  The financial aid folks can tinker with it a bit , but you're going to end up paying about what they say is your expected family contribution is.

If $47K is the average at Bowdoin, roughly half of families are getting less than that.  It behooves everyone targeting Bowdoin (or other schools like it) to do the net price calculator and proceed assuming it will probably be about that amount, give or take maybe five thousand.  There is a handy third-party calculator that gives low, high, and best estimates, that you can use called MyInTuition. https://myintuition.org/  But, unless you have extenuating circumstances (a parent has lost a job, extensive medical bills, etc.) the EFC generated by most net price calculators on college websites these days is fairly close to the mark.

If you have time to kill, what is interesting is plugging the same numbers into multiple schools at MyInTuition and seeing different results.  That's because different schools choose to look at, and count, parents' assets differently.  Some schools, for instance, do not count home equity at all, some count it up to a point but cap it (usually 2.4 times income), and some schools count the whole shebang.  So schools with the same sticker price can really turn out to be very different prices for the same family.

I don’t need to do the research anymore. My kids are 27 and 32. They’ve been through college ball and grad school. I only chose to look at Bowdoin’s numbers as a reference due to a recent conversation with a Bowdoin person. Plus my family would have preferred my kids and I be 6th and 7th generation. Unfortunately Bowdoin isn’t D1.

@Francis7 posted:

 

No academic or athletic scholarship and no financial aid. How many college baseball players fall into this category? Is it more common than people think where a kid is playing baseball at the school he is attending and paying 90 to 100% of the full cost to attend that school?

I think what you are really asking is... attending and paying 90 to 100% of what the cost would be without baseball?

I make the distinction because we have two private D2 schools in my area that are notorious for implying to kids that they are getting scholarship money because of baseball, when in fact every kid in the school is getting the same discount. You might be surprised how many parents fall for this. I just tried the NPC at one of these schools and gave them every reason to charge me full price (salary, savings, low SAT, etc) and the school still gave me a 43% discount off of total COA (which included room and board).

Back to your question:
Theoretically, every D3 player is in this position.
D2 is harder to estimate since they can split their 9 scholarships up among everyone if they want, but I'm guessing an average of at least 10 kids per program are getting no baseball money (probably more).
At least 8 players on every D1 roster are getting no scholarship, and since many programs don't fund the full 11.7, it has to be much more than that.

Most people, in general, attend college at full cost, with a few partial academic scholarships.  Baseball players attending at near full cost is no big deal to me.  Most Baseball players don’t get full rides, even at SEC schools. 

We have a few high profile recruits who were drafted out of HS getting full rides. Let's say that number is 4. That leaves 7.7 divided up among 23 others. Knowing what mine and one other is getting, I would probably safely assume 16/17ish are paying full tuition. So 35 guys, 18-20 splitting the 11.7 the rest paying their way. 

I think it’s close enough to the truth to say that 50% of all D1 college baseball players receive no baseball scholarship $. The same is true at D2 and I’m guessing NAIA is similar. No D3 players receive any baseball scholarship $.   Once you eliminate JuCos from the discussion, most college baseball players are not receiving any athletic scholarship $. 

I have to thank Francis for being so active here.  Lots of interesting things are brought up in the discussions.  I've come to realize in the past year that my 2023 will not be a D1 player.  Heck he's probably not a D2 player.  He's smaller, athletic but not crazy burner fast, great MIF/OF defense, hits for average and high OBP but not for hit-it-out power.  But what he is is wicked smaaht...  He is a 4.0 uwgpa and based on practice SATs (yes, he does them already), he will be that 1500+ kid.  So HA D3 it is for him.   Hell, his goal... cough... his parents goal, is an elite academic D3.  I plugged into the financial calculator above and we will get no financial aid at any elite school.  (I suppose if he went a step below, he might get merit money).  But how disappointing it is to think that he might get strung along with 20 freshman who show up in the fall on a roster of 50+ kids.  

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

I have to thank Francis for being so active here.  Lots of interesting things are brought up in the discussions.  I've come to realize in the past year that my 2023 will not be a D1 player.  Heck he's probably not a D2 player.  He's smaller, athletic but not crazy burner fast, great MIF/OF defense, hits for average and high OBP but not for hit-it-out power.  But what he is is wicked smaaht...  He is a 4.0 uwgpa and based on practice SATs (yes, he does them already), he will be that 1500+ kid.  So HA D3 it is for him.   Hell, his goal... cough... his parents goal, is an elite academic D3.  I plugged into the financial calculator above and we will get no financial aid at any elite school.  (I suppose if he went a step below, he might get merit money).  But how disappointing it is to think that he might get strung along with 20 freshman who show up in the fall on a roster of 50+ kids.  

If he’s a top recruit he will be asked to apply ED. The coach will offer to walk his application brought admissions. The HA D3 coaches usually are allowed a handful of passes each class for their teams. The kids still have to be top students. But they might be a step behind non athletic applicants.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

I have to thank Francis for being so active here.  Lots of interesting things are brought up in the discussions.  I've come to realize in the past year that my 2023 will not be a D1 player.  Heck he's probably not a D2 player.  He's smaller, athletic but not crazy burner fast, great MIF/OF defense, hits for average and high OBP but not for hit-it-out power.  But what he is is wicked smaaht...  He is a 4.0 uwgpa and based on practice SATs (yes, he does them already), he will be that 1500+ kid.  So HA D3 it is for him.   Hell, his goal... cough... his parents goal, is an elite academic D3.  I plugged into the financial calculator above and we will get no financial aid at any elite school.  (I suppose if he went a step below, he might get merit money).  But how disappointing it is to think that he might get strung along with 20 freshman who show up in the fall on a roster of 50+ kids.  

HA D3's will not have overloaded rosters.   These schools have under 20% (or much tougher) admissions.  The coaches have a few slots to help athletes (4 or 5).   You do need to keep your ear to the ground because there are some exceptions but this board will help you sniff that out when you get closer to decisions in two years.   There are not a ton of 4.0, 1500+ guys who want to play baseball who can get through admissions and try to walk on a team.  There are some out there but it's not as large as you might think.

Gunner based on what I read on this board damn near every kid is 4.0 1550 and looking at either P5 or HA...I mean my son is at normalish college, had 1250 for sat is pulling a 3.4 GPA in business starting his SR year, he is going to be doing grad school and playing a 5th year because he can and is going do grad school anyway...and when I read this board I have concerns that he is some kind of mouth breather who isn't going to be do anything successful in life. OF COURSE it is possible people overstate things on a message board...just saying. 

As far as cost goes almost every kid who applies to a school gets an "academic scholarship" of some kind...remember the price of college is kind of like car price, nobody pays the list and nobody pays the exact same. My son was 3.3ish GPA in HS, he had a handful of AP courses and was 1250 SAT - he went to Mid Atlantic D3 with good academics, sticker price 55k or there about, son got "academic scholarship" of 18,500 so he is paying 36k a year...this is kind of standard. We received nothing need based and I refused to fill out a FAFSA form. 

other son is non athlete in college goes to a D1 Catholic in Philly - sticker is 64 or there about - his HS transcript was almost identical to older one - he is getting 12 or 13k per year - so that one is roughly 50k per year. 

I think / am pretty sure these numbers are fairly typical for our area unless you are going to one of the state universities. 

Old School -  I do think this board attracts parents who have very good baseball players and many have academic over achievers.  Like you, I have a few in college so I've been through the admission wars.   I know so many kids in my town with 3.9, 4.0, 1500's to1600 who got turned down at high academics.   To the parents that haven't been through the process yet I caution them now, its a crap shoot.   Getting that slot from a HA coach is key.  

All the schools we were looking at for my son, HA D3, had normal rosters and from what we found out not a lot of players trying to walk on.   We tracked the roster sizes over the years too to find out how many kids stuck with the programs all four years.  It tells the story many times better than the anecdotes.  There are some though that have too many players - the ones that have JV seem to over recruit.

Love the mouth breather comment on your son.   We all know success is about how hard you work for it.  Doesn't matter where you start, its what you do with your opportunities.  Your son sounds like a great student to me.

Yes I know of a girl with perfect gpa and max ACT that applied to only 1 school and was turned down!

And my guy with less but a plus 90 FB was offered chit by IVY HC's. 

Then to my chagrin decided IVY baseball was not competitive enough.

One example: Dartmouth received 24000 applications for this Fall and accepted 1800! 

Now California schools are not using SAT or ACT. What a crazy world.

Not sure I want my doctor to be diverse with a mid SAT score.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

I have to thank Francis for being so active here.  Lots of interesting things are brought up in the discussions.  I've come to realize in the past year that my 2023 will not be a D1 player.  Heck he's probably not a D2 player.  He's smaller, athletic but not crazy burner fast, great MIF/OF defense, hits for average and high OBP but not for hit-it-out power.  But what he is is wicked smaaht...  He is a 4.0 uwgpa and based on practice SATs (yes, he does them already), he will be that 1500+ kid.  So HA D3 it is for him.   Hell, his goal... cough... his parents goal, is an elite academic D3.  I plugged into the financial calculator above and we will get no financial aid at any elite school.  (I suppose if he went a step below, he might get merit money).  But how disappointing it is to think that he might get strung along with 20 freshman who show up in the fall on a roster of 50+ kids.  

I agree with you. These questions have been really good for new members.

Good job Francis.

Let me tell you what HC Florida Gators Kevin O'Sullivan told me many years ago.

Every player on a team has been recruited for different reasons. One of the reasons, besides the obvious is because they excel in the classroom. The coaches job is not just to win games, but to have students that win in the classroom as well. Obviously one bad GPA is helped by the stellar GPA. I also might add that any coaches get awarded for a teams GPA.

As a 2023, your son has plenty of time to improve his game and continue to work hard in the classroom and in the gym.  I did read something on Twitter, a coach often asks about a players workout, how hard that he puts in training,  is a direct correlation to the players work ethic in the game. 

Continue to do research and send out emails.  Dont give up on D1 opportunities. And dont worry about the numbers right now. It will change next spring.

Do roster research, and remember that only 8 + the pitchers play in any given game, there are never guarantees, and there are always kids on every team who don't play much.  At super-selective schools, getting an admissions slot is an indication that the coach thinks your son is likely to get playing time (with no guarantees), and, as others have said, the rosters tend not to be large.  At less selective schools with larger rosters, it is harder to figure out, going in, where your son stands in the coach's eyes.  On here people always say, "it's better to play than to be on the bench," but those teams with 45+ players are obviously full of students who just like being part of a baseball team.  There's nothing wrong with that, in the end, it will depend on what your son wants out of college baseball - and if you feel that the value he is getting out of his education is worth the money you are paying at that particular school.

GN I'm going to challenge you on that. Wake Forest (no slouch school) went test optional in 2008. After 10 years, they assessed and discovered that "there has been no difference in academic achievement at Wake Forest between those who submitted scores and those who declined to do so." I'm one of those people who has always liked standardized tests and does really well on them. I saw some of my nerd friends (academic equals) who hated tests not do as well and other friends who's parents were able to afford a crap ton of prep classes increase their scores by hundreds of points. Neither one seemed fair or a true indication of the individual's intelligence...just their ability to do well on a test that was basically geometry and vocabulary. I personally also believe the studies that show that diversity on college campuses, improve the “intellectual engagement, self-motivation, citizenship, and cultural engagement, and academic skills like critical thinking, problem-solving, and writing – for students of all races." But maybe that's just me.  Footnote (rather than make another post)...diversity and educational excellence are NOT mutually exclusive!

@old_school posted:

Gunner based on what I read on this board damn near every kid is 4.0 1550 and looking at either P5 or HA...I mean my son is at normalish college, had 1250 for sat is pulling a 3.4 GPA in business starting his SR year, he is going to be doing grad school and playing a 5th year because he can and is going do grad school anyway...and when I read this board I have concerns that he is some kind of mouth breather who isn't going to be do anything successful in life. OF COURSE it is possible people overstate things on a message board...just saying. 

As far as cost goes almost every kid who applies to a school gets an "academic scholarship" of some kind...remember the price of college is kind of like car price, nobody pays the list and nobody pays the exact same. My son was 3.3ish GPA in HS, he had a handful of AP courses and was 1250 SAT - he went to Mid Atlantic D3 with good academics, sticker price 55k or there about, son got "academic scholarship" of 18,500 so he is paying 36k a year...this is kind of standard. We received nothing need based and I refused to fill out a FAFSA form. 

other son is non athlete in college goes to a D1 Catholic in Philly - sticker is 64 or there about - his HS transcript was almost identical to older one - he is getting 12 or 13k per year - so that one is roughly 50k per year. 

I think / am pretty sure these numbers are fairly typical for our area unless you are going to one of the state universities. 

haha. I'll try not to be too defensive here.  2023 will never throw a 90FB nor run a 6.6 60.  So I don't know why I'd feel an urge to overstate his academic gifts on an anonymous message board.  That said, I've found that a majority of the very successful people I've met in life were not the best students.  It really does come down to hard work, communication skills, persistance.  But the reality is that there are some schools which give you a lift in getting started in your career.  Who knows how his academics will actually end up.  There are a lot of potential pitfalls along the way.  ie Bambi with long legs. 

My sense is that, if you are an affluent family, there is little chance of getting academic merit money at a, say, Williams, Bowdoin, Amherst, Johns Hopkins.  At a step below... yes... tuition will be knocked down.  My friends daughter is going to a very good out-of-state college where her 34ACT and 3.7 GPA got her $25k/year.  

If I follow everyone correctly, if 2023 gets told that he should apply ED and the coach says he will help get through, there is a pretty good chance he would at least make the freshman spring roster.  And elite D3s have less risk of "over-rostering" then the next tier down because the academic requirements limit the pool of students who also play decent baseball.  

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

If I follow everyone correctly, if 2023 gets told that he should apply ED and the coach says he will help get through, there is a pretty good chance he would at least make the freshman spring roster.  And elite D3s have less risk of "over-rostering" then the next tier down because the academic requirements limit the pool of students who also play decent baseball.  

 

Anecdotally - my son is now a senior at a very HA D3.  So far, not a single "slotted" kid has failed to make the team during freshman year.  Some have failed to see the field much or at all, but nobody has failed to make the team.  BTW not a single unrecruited walk on has made the team during that time.

That said, there's a former user here whose son was slotted at an equally HA school in the NESCAC.  He played for a very good summer team so I think he was at the least a decent player. He failed to make his team freshman  year.

Well PTWOOD,  then this is a win-win.

You take the diverse Doctor that is a very hard worker and I will take the one with the best grades and test scores and we will both be happy!

But we have stolen the thread and should apologize to the baseball fans here.

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

HA D3's will not have overloaded rosters.   These schools have under 20% (or much tougher) admissions.  The coaches have a few slots to help athletes (4 or 5).   You do need to keep your ear to the ground because there are some exceptions but this board will help you sniff that out when you get closer to decisions in two years.   There are not a ton of 4.0, 1500+ guys who want to play baseball who can get through admissions and try to walk on a team.  There are some out there but it's not as large as you might think.

Hopkins has a reputation for having 50.

Is there a way to reliably see fall roster sizes?  Or if it is only a word of mouth kinda thing, perhaps someone might pm me with other schools known for this? Thanks

@RJM posted:

Hopkins has a reputation for having 50.

Yes they do. There are some HA D3s that do over-recruit. Not many, but some. I do agree that HA D3 will be the segment of college baseball least affected by NCAA ruling, overcrowded rosters, etc. However they also seem the quickest to pull the trigger on cancelling things. So they are some of the schools most affected by Covid19. If you go HA D3 a legit scenario might be that you make the spring roster (as a freshman) on a team that plays no games. 

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Is there a way to reliably see fall roster sizes?  Or if it is only a word of mouth kinda thing, perhaps someone might pm me with other schools known for this? Thanks

You could try. Most programs that list 2021 rosters only list returning players. Programs don't normally publish fall rosters.

There are many, many programs in D1, D2, D3 that do not over recruit. We often tend to hear about the more popular programs.  

Just keep in mind that there are all types of programs that are struggling, overloaded athletic rosters helps pay bills.  But that can stress out coaches trying to help their players become better.

By the way, just a conclusion that I have discovered, this site has more parents whose players attend or did attend D1 programs.  So do not be shy about asking questions.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Is there a way to reliably see fall roster sizes?  Or if it is only a word of mouth kinda thing, perhaps someone might pm me with other schools known for this? Thanks

You can't see fall roster sizes for most D3s, but you can definitely see spring rosters, and going back several years.  Some are as high as 45-50.  That will tell you something by itself.  If they want to cut, they can cut, but they don't have to.

@adbono posted:

Yes they do. There are some HA D3s that do over-recruit. Not many, but some. I do agree that HA D3 will be the segment of college baseball least affected by NCAA ruling, overcrowded rosters, etc. However they also seem the quickest to pull the trigger on cancelling things. So they are some of the schools most affected by Covid19. If you go HA D3 a legit scenario might be that you make the spring roster (as a freshman) on a team that plays no games. 

It’s unlikely a parent would pay 70K just so their kid could play another year. Most HA D3s don’t have grad schools. The player is more likely to move on to a high paying job, grad school someplace else, or grad school someplace else and play ball. 

I realize there’s a time value to money. But when I went to a top end state school the full price was $2,000. Full price at the best state campus where my kids grew up is now $32,000. Inflation would only make $2,000 in the mid 70’s $10,00 today.

"Hopkins has a reputation for having 50."

And I believe they are actually quite upfront about it.  One should be able to clearly hear it stated. 

If you happen to attend a prospect camp there, you will first have to send an academic transcript to the head coach, and he'll then tell you whether to sign up or not.

@adbono posted:

 However they also seem the quickest to pull the trigger on cancelling things. 

They are the wokest! Congrats.