Politics and Coaching

MY advice--stay out of it

Obviously if he is winning the AD will turn a deaf ear to you abyway

One question--- if the better kids, in your estimation, are sitting on the bench how come he wins?? Perhaps the better players are on the field

TRhit

LIfe, at times, is not fair.

No need for you to be a "champion" of a cause because it will only negatively impact on your son's relationship with the coach (whether you believe it or not).

The coach has already injected "favoritism" into the team; he has won with that attitude; and, there is nothing for you to do at this time. If you do, you are likely to "hurt" your son.

If other other parents feel as you do, and their sons are involved, they should be the ones that start the "protestations".

Unless a parent is at every practice and hears every word spoken by the coach its unfair to judge his playing time actions.

Sometimes talent is not enough to be a starter.Sometimes the better talent is on the bench because they refuse to play team ball.The team ball I refer to is hustle and attitude.

If a superstar is constantly berating a team mate for an error or strike out at the plate he's not my idea of a team player.

If a player wants to mouth off to the umpire or worse yet to a coach he's not a team player. If he whines about bunting because he wants to swing away he's not a team player.

There is more to being a starter than just being talented. Some parents don't seem to see this and wonder why a player is not starting even when he seems to be talented.

This may not be the case with the situation you described but it might be something to consider.

There will ALWAYS be coach's favorites thats a given. Life is often unfair. Some coach's handle it to the teams benefit better than others.

I would say stay out of it and just stay positive with the players. You might suggest they find a quality summer team so they can get the looks they deserve if they are thinking of college.

Seadog

The choices we make dictate the lives we lead.

Reading this post from a coach's perspective, I was stuck with this thought...the nine best players sometimes do not make the best nine. I don't pretend to know your situation, and I am not trying to judge, but I agree with earlier posts. The coach is having success and without being at practice to see how the players perform with their teammates, react to pressure, set an example for others to emulate (or not), etc., no person can make the decision on who makes up the best nine except the coach.
I am a little biased, but I once had a father come to me once who stated I played favorites, and did not have best nine on the field. Furthermore, "everyone" knew I did not put the best lineup on the field the previous season.

That season we were 26-3 and state runners-up...the previous season we were state champions. Just goes to show you, you can never make every parent happy

I'm a mom replying to this post here, because even though you also posted in the ladies lounge I think the discussion is best served in one thread.

Let me preface by saying that my kid has been on both sides of this situation over the years, sometimes the favored, sometimes the passed over, sometimes clearly deserved, sometimes not so clear.

I have a couple thoughts:

1) You say your son plays--I take this to mean that your son does not sit on the bench as his friends do. When you look at the kids on the bench, is there one who your son thinks is better than him? Who should be playing your kid's position while your son sits on the bench? If so--your son needs to have a talk with the coach about your son's skills and contributions to the team. Feeling like you have a position you haven't earned does no one any good. This conversation has to be between your son and his coach. It is no one's business but theirs.

If your son feels like he's earned his own position fairly but is sticking up for his friends--I wouldn't worry anymore about it. Possibly the coach knows a thing or two those boys don't. It's been known to happen.

2)Consider that it is much easier to sit on the bench and complain that so-and-so is starting only because his parents paid for the field than it is to spend extra hours every day all year round working on your skills to the point where the coach has no other choice than to play you. So you may have to work harder than somebody else to get to the same place--so what? If your goal is to play, it really doesn't matter who's playing in front of you or why. You just go out and keep doing your job until you get where you want to go.

Just my opinion as a mom. Coaches may think differently.

I am intriqued by this question time and time again. How many people honestly belive that a coach purposely does not play the players he believes to be his best nine? I had a parent approach me one day and ask why his son was not our everyday shortstop. I simply asked him to stop by practice the next day and watch his son's work habits. If he then beleived his son should be our shortstop please call me. I saw him in the distance at practice so I knew he was there, but he never asked me again why his son was not our everyday shortstop. I have sat more talented players for lesser talents in the past and will do so again. I will play the nine guys who I feel will give their best effort everyday. I have had very talented kids in the past who only felt the need to bust it twice or three times a week. Those guys don't play very often on my team.

eck10....AMEN...

"If you can imagine it you can create it. If you can dream it, you can become it". William Arthur Ward

"Baseball is Life"

DIVA,

While I certainly can't speak to your situation specifically, I agree with Eck...it is SO unusual for a baseball coach to sit the best players on his team and play "favorites" who's parents contributed time and money....

I can certainly think of times when I've tried to get a backup player in because he's a great kid who works hard, but I've never done it just because his dad donated a batting cage or whatever....often times, that great kid's parents just happen to be great people too, and therefore they donate their time and money. That doesn't mean that is why their son is playing.

Remember, despite how well you know your son, his coach (assuming he knows what he's doing) is with him every day for many weeks, watching his skills. Perhaps your son, or the other boys who you feel should be starting, are not as good as they used to be, or aren't performing as they need to in practice.

What are your thoughts?

"Swing hard in case you hit something" Gary Ward

To think that favoritism does not exist is not reality. To believe that it is malicious or for who gives the most money is not reality.

Of course a coach is going to have favorites. Some of these guys he has been through 2 or 3 seasons with. I wouldn't respect him if he did not have favorites. Where I have a problem is when the coach lets that bias overlook a younger more talented player in favor of "he'll get his chance". I also have seen firsthand that a coach confuses physical maturity with baseball ability, thus leaving a talented player on the bench. I have seen coaches so intent on their favorites that he leaves them in in 10 run games even though he could re-enter his starters if it gets close, but choses not to put in younger subs to develop.

Some coaches will hold back a players development so as not to embarass an upperclassman who will not play at the next level. Though I understand it to some degree, it is not fair to a kid who has worked so hard to excel. jmo

"I love the HSBBW"

I agree that coaches want to win. I agree that their are favorites involved. I agree that we (parents) don't always have enough information to make this call....and we all could adjust a line up give or take a player or two...

bbscout - Although I would agree its rare, I've seen it. And later facts proved it to be the case. It involved a coach's determination that seniors play ahead of underclassmen, almost no matter what happened. Even had the coach tell me, "I've got a problem, the sophomores are better than the seniors."

I said, "Whats the problem?"

He said, "I can't play a sophomore ahead of a senior."

Underclassmen (both of them) on bench went on to college ball (one is frosh this year, other signed for D1 next year). Senior did not move on. Coach wasn't rehired for following year.

Only point is, it happens sometimes.

I've seen what you are speaking of but not in high school ball but in Babe Ruth. IN the B.R. league my son was in there was no way for him to get a tryout in Mickey Mantle. The coach of his team was blatantly showing favoritism and my son and others only got to play when other kids didn't show or if they were needed. The odd part about the Mickey Mantle team was they were winning and with kids I had seen play several times that were not the best players while other kids were not even allowed a tryout even when they requested one. On the B.R. team when no other pitchers were available and the one who was pitching was getting rocked my son was finally brought in. Pitched a one hitter over 5 innings and was told by the coach as they left the field "You Suck". At the final game of the year the coach brought to the game his younger sons who were not on the team and played them while team members sat the bench. I called the league president and informed him my son would not play the following season and why. At the time no one thought it would matter. But the following season most of the team failed to return and they could not field a team. A new coach was brought in and he finally got enough kids to field a team. The new coach seems like a good one and they probably won't have those problems again and the new coach asked my son to play for him several times but he had moved up to a higher competition level and is vary happy with his new team.

Jw
That is an incredible story. If you told me that and I had not been involved in coaching and being a parent of a player I would say it was far fetched.But the way things are and have developed over the years it sadly does happen. Then people wonder why kids get tired of playing or in some cases trying to play.

Big Hit 15
I agree totally. In the league i was involved with we had no 10 run rule or re entry. It was tough to get the bench players some time. What I did was schedule a non conference game every week. Those kids knew that they were going to not only play but start that game. Winning the game was not as important as getting them their at bats and innings.And over the years what I saw in those games made for some significant time for them down the road. You would think with the 10 run rule and re entry the coach would have a no brainer in this regard.

I've got a couple of comments, on both sides of this. First, this year I watched a high school team play all season. Many of the parents were scathing about the coach. I, too thought that some players didn't get the playing time that I thought they deserved (plus and minus.) I had the opportunity to coach essentially the same group of players later in the year, and by the time a dozen practices and games had gone by I realized why the school coach had done what he did, and conclude that he was right all along. So if your opinion of whether or not the coach is playing based on talent is based on what you saw from outside the fence during games, you might think differently if you were on the field with the players every day for practice and in games.
On the other hand, an honest coach will admit that he hopes fervently that the "big booster's" kid will be good enough to deserve to play on his own merits; because if he isn't, the coach is gonna get reamed by somebody, all season long. And if it's a close call; well, yeah, "booster's" kid probably will get the benefit of the doubt. Just reality.

D'oh!

The day may never come but people in the stands have to realize that it is more than just "talent" that gets a player playing time.

Talk to Jon Gruden down in Tampa Bay !!!!! God bless him for standing up to the BS!!!!

TRhit

Dont worry too much about the coaches. The vast majority of them do the right thing and want to win IMO.

Worry about the local media. Thats where it can get ugly.

Ive never in my over 20 years of coaching met a coach that did not try to win every game they were in. Even the most ignorant coach knows in order to give yourself the best chance to win you play your best players. Now there might be some disagreement over who thinks the best players are. Especially between parents and coachs. That is to be expected. But believe me if your son is a stud then unless he has a attitude problem he will be on the field. Whens the last time you have seen a parent tell the coach "My son is not one of the best players so please take him out of the lineup coach". Your not helping you child by offering up excuses on why he is not in the lineup. Give him some solutions on how he can earn a spot and he wont need excuses.

Most coaches are stubborn power freaks (good trait) and got into coaching because they thought they had the formula and leadership skills to produce a winner. I cannot envision a SUCCESSFUL coach that wins by using poltics. High School athletic careers are short lived and parents disappear as fast as they come on board with the exception of the sibbling factor. Find a parent that cries politics and in most cases most of the other parents will say the parents appraisal of the kids talent is over rated. Those parents should check out practices where pt is determined. There are exceptions to the rule but for what a hs coach is paid it makes no sense to be a parental pawn.

Because of this perception that has evolved over the years, it has gotten to the point with me that I am almost to the point of no longer asking parents to help with anything. I am so reluctant to do this because without parental help, we would lack many resources here. But it does seem that parents who help sometimes expect things in return. We try to evaluate as fairly as possible to put the nine players on the field that will give us the best opportunity to win in that particular situation. Parets are always biased towards their children. I see my nine-year-old daughter differently than my riends see her, because she's mine. Only when parents can become totally objective, attend practice every day, and know what happens with any program will this change. However, I do not know of any coaches that intentionally cheat kids, but you must look at more than ability. Look at attitude, work ethic, coachability, cooperativeness with teammates, etc... All of this makes for a successful team.

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The only thing between extraordinary and ordinary is that little EXTRA.

Good Things may come to those who wait, but only things left by those that hustle!

If your kid is good enough to play, the coach will play him, bottom line. All the qualifying ingredients (pitching,hitting,speed,lefty,righty,attitude,work ethic etc.) that determine whether a player starts are factored in by the coach's formula of making the team. It will vary by coach. Some coaches will weigh "pitching" ahead of "hitting" and visa versa. Depending on the school's philosphy, a coach may weigh these ingredients with different priorites. Parents should consider their school choice before critizing a coach! It's like buying a house, you should consider the neighborhood first and then pick out the house.

What I find interesting is a lack of consistancy of some HS coaches. One successful coach in our conference almost always has a varsity 9 of at least 6 seniors year in and year out. Our coach on the the other hand is known for blowing out HIS program and only having about 3 of 4 starting seniors each year. One year he did not even have a senior on the team. He always has the fall back excuse that "we are a young team". It sickens me that once he deems talent only average that he bypasses the upper classman any tries to develop Soph and Fresh much too early. I really can't understand giving up on a senior that has put 3 yrs in the program. This really has had a demoralizing effect on the team and program. These underclassmen parents do a lot of work, however.

This is an interesting thread. As much as I love baseball and as much enjoyment as I get working with players, there is no way in the world I would be a high school coach, for any sport, especially baseball. The politics have become so stiffling we (parents) are running off all the good coaches. At a school in our area (not the school my son attended) a baseball "Section Coach of the Year" was fired within months of receiving the honor. He made the unforgivable mistake of playing some very talented Sophomores over some Juniors during the stretch run. The group of Junior parents, realizing their son's playing time might be even more limited in their senior season rebelled. Coach Evans is right, we all want to see our children succeed, but give the coaches some rope!

Itsoutahere

You say"we parents are running off good coaches" You are starting to sound like me, Oh well. Believe it or not a similar thing almost happened to myself. We were not doing well one year and going nowhere so I decided to bring up some younger players from the JV to get some time and varsity experience. I figured it would help down the road. A couple of seniors were not happy and a few of the parents expressed their displeasure to me and of course to the administration of the school. I later found out that one was adament about me no longer being the coach. He lobbied to have me fired.It got a little sticky. to make a long story short the younger kids played well at times. Next year they made the conference playoffs and the following year the finals. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what needs to be done.

G222406,
Regardless of age, does he play the best team he has? If he tends to keep and play the underclassmen don't they eventually become an experieced senior class?

Will-
Thankfully, it sounds like your Administration provided some level of support. Out here, in what used to be referred to as the "People's Republic of California"*, the Administrators seem to be scared to death of parents. Glad to hear someone is still out there biting the bullet and doing the right thing.

* I believe we are now referred to as an "Austrian Colony".

Itsoutahere

As I said it got a little sticky. As far as support from the administration there were a few that reccommended and asked me to step down. Basically I told them to )(*&^%&^%. I would not quit. Fire me or leave me alone. They backed off. All this because I did what I thought was under the circumstances best for the program. A few parents thought otherwise. They say experience is the best teacher. I no longer coach. Was that why I left. It did not help but I had put in many years and in talking to other coaches some had or were having similar situations. One of my assistants from my last couple of years has applied for several head coach positions. I tell him to always watch your back. the person that pats you on the back one day may want your head the next. gloom and doom? Not really It goes on.

RZ1

Let's just say that the best 9 from the school are not on the field or the team. Some of them still play just not HS ball. I have seen one bad pitching outing actually take the player out of the rotation for the rest of the season, and actually told (heard by witnesses) that he will never pitch at this school again. This was the No 1 or 2 pitcher as an underclassman on JV and the 3 or 4 when he came up to varsity. Now the player will not play his senior year. This is only one example of how the coaching staff "black balls" a player and gets rid of them before they turn seniors. This also has a lot to do with are you in "the click" or not.

Yes Politics are rampant in HS sports no doubt.

quote:

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Originally posted by coachevans26:
Because of this perception that has evolved over the years, it has gotten to the point with me that I am almost to the point of no longer asking parents to help with anything. I am so reluctant to do this because without parental help, we would lack many resources here. But it does seem that parents who help sometimes expect things in return.

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Now that you make this point, I recall in LL a parent who was instrumental in an important, but specialized part of the LL administration. The head of the program made special efforts for this parent's child to fill one of the slots in the 12 y.o. LL all-star competition, even though the child would not have made the top 70 list in an 80+ player age group. This particular administrative position is difficult to fill.

Even though parents can sometimes be a pain in the rear end, they are a necessary element for success, if they can be properly channeled. Even saying this, however, it is probably normal human nature for a parent to see this kind of help as "quid pro quo". You're also right when you say that it is natural that parents are unable to be unbiased when evaluating their child. Many parents are unrealistic as to their child's capabilities and even desire for the great game of baseball. This lack of realism is often the crux of the playing time crying that goes on (also, some parents equate HS baseball with rec league baseball). However, the parent/coach relationship is like many marriages - less than perfect, with the one "spouse" thinking he/she is more perfect than the other "spouse". "Divorce" should rarely be the answer for this less than perfect relationship.

quote:

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Originally posted by Will:
Itsoutahere

... We were not doing well one year and going nowhere so I decided to bring up some younger players from the JV to get some time and varsity experience. I figured it would help down the road. A couple of seniors were not happy and a few of the parents expressed their displeasure to me and of course to the administration of the school. I later found out that one was adament about me no longer being the coach. He lobbied to have me fired.It got a little sticky.

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In my son's school, the JV coach purposefully selects players based on years in the school (sophmores get an automatic selection over younger children) rather than baseball ability. His coaching philosophy is that this may be the last time the older students get to play baseball. In his mind, winning games is not a necessity. I've been told that in years past he has cut players who afterwards excelled in the varsity program. I think you are correct when you observed that parents of older students expect their children to receive preferential treatment over younger athletes who may have more baseball ability. There are three things in life I would never want to be: an umpire, a coach and a combat surgeon.

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach May:
... Whens the last time you have seen a parent tell the coach "My son is not one of the best players so please take him out of the lineup coach".

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Just as an aside, I remember a semifinal game that my son's travel team played. The dad/coach decided to put in a relief pitcher midway through a tension-filled game. The relief pitcher's father begged the dad/coach for the next two innings that his relief pitcher son was not experienced enough to pitch in a game at this level of competition. This relief pitcher's father pleaded with the coach to put in a different pitcher, for the well-being of the team (the relief pitcher agreed with his father's assessment, since at that time he had not much pitching experience). There are some parents who have a realistic outlook on their child's baseball abilities. It is certainly true, however, that many parents have unrealistic outlooks and expectations for their sons.

As a coach sometimes Ive wondered to myself what it would be like in the stands if I let the disgruntled parent fill out the line up one night. Who would he take out of the line up in order for his son to start. Would he sit in the stands with the other parents after he made this decision. Would he sit with the parent of the player that he sat down in order to play his son. How would he feel each time his son got up. How much pressure would he feel everytime he had to make a play. How much pressure would the son feel to prove that his parent was right by putting him in the line up over the other kid. When his son had a bad game would he stick with him in the line up or would he take him out. Or, would he replace another kid that might be struggling in order to justify the move he made. How would the son feel everytime his teamates got together and were talking. Are they talking about me because dad put me in. Do they think that I should be playing or is it just daddy ball. Be carefull what you ask for. How about this "Your son earns his spot all on his own". When parents give their sons excuses then they can not find solutions. I tell players all the time to prove me wrong. If your not in the line up and you feel that you deserve to be in the line up prove me wrong. How do they do that. By busting their butt in practice and keeping a great attitude and taking advantage of the opportunities that they get. And Ill tell you how they prove me right. By giving up. By having a bad attitude. By going through the motions in practice. By crying to mommy and daddy to fight their battle for playing time. Kids that are coddled and spoiled are not going to survive when the going gets rough. And I dont care how good anyone is there are going to be times that you are tested. You can blame the coach all you want to. What does that solve. How about being good enough that he has to play you because if he didnt he would look like a fool for not.

You play the best players. Keeping a senior because he is a senior can present problems. sometimes you keep a junior on your squad because you think he will progress but it just does not work out. Then senior year comes and you have a roster spot to fill and there is somebody below him that is better. What do you do? It is a tough call.

coachmay, preach it brother, amen

will,
you are right it is a tough call. i have cut seniors the last 4 years, just for that reason. a few times it has been a mutual agreement with the player. i talked to them and told them playing time would be very limited, etc. etc. if i had a spot on my team where there is going to be limited playing time and the 2 guys for that spot are close in talent, i go with the younger one, because he MAY develope

Coach May - Another great commentary!!

quote:

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Originally posted by passive1:
However, the parent/coach relationship is like many marriages - less than perfect, with the one "spouse" thinking he/she is more perfect than the other "spouse". "Divorce" should rarely be the answer for this less than perfect relationship.

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passive1-

Divorce from the parents is not the answer, the key is to be objective. I know that if I dont allow the parents to help or encourage them and seek assistance from the community, then I can not possibly do things to improve facilities, maintain the field, or do other things to improve th eprogram. MOney is tight all over, schools cutting athletic budgets left and right.

Isn't all of this an example of where society is going?? Isn't the "REC LEAGUE" mentality spreading? When will society learn that the best rises to the top because they work harder.

Sounds like the ole liberal philosophy of handouts!!

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The only thing between extraordinary and ordinary is that little EXTRA.

Good Things may come to those who wait, but only things left by those that hustle!

A senior is one of two things: a cancer or a leader. There is no in between.

Coach May,Evans,&cat26
Is there really any other lineup that will statisfy the complaining parent and all others. You tend to see those that complain have a son for example that is 3 deep at 1st base that can hit ok but is a liability on the field or on base. But mom and dad see him as the one who can "get things going" if he only had a chance. I think a coach has to live and die by his decisions, and because there are a limited number of positions somebody will always feel slighted. Keep up the good work and coach YOUR team.

No matter what you do in relation to roster size and add to that the prospect of letting senirs go there is one thing that is a given. You will not please everybody. It goes with the territory. Everyday you post a lineup card somebody somewhere will take issue in one form or another. Sometimes it amounts to nothing and other times it can get ugly as we have seen in some other posts. I learned a long time ago you can not please everybody and if you try you are in trouble.

Cats nothing I have ever read on here has been any more true that what you just posted. (As a senior you are either a leader or a cancer). My first year as a Head Coach I had six seniors returning and had a large and talented Freshman class come in. With the exception of two of the Seniors the others never did anything to improve themselves on the field. They refused to even try out for Legion or play in the summer on our other team. They never I mean never attended any off season work outs in their entire careers. When we held tryouts two of the Freshman were just better than the four seniors. Both of them ended up starting as Freshman and one of them made all conf. I cut two of the four seniors. I made a terrible mistake. I should have cut all four. Why? Because they ended up being cancers. Instead of working hard to prove that they belonged in the line up they griped and complained about how they were seniors and they should playing because they were seniors. The best play period. Since that year I have not had any problem convincing guys that they need to work to make sure that no one comes in and takes something away from them because they did not work. It has helped our program in a ton of ways.

What always gets me is this belief that because you are a senior you play. Or because you are a senior you make the team.