POLL MAN: MAXIMUM INNINGS FOR HS PITCHER

my though:

5 innings a week over 8 months a year with 4 off equals around 160. So if you run 6 to 7 on occasions you could easily exceed 170 a year.

Im amazed when I find a "young" team and the coach says---I have 3 pitchers....they are called pitchers simply because they occupy the mound...lets be honest...they are throwers...even the pros will tell you it takes them a couple of years in the Bigs...talking day on day with veterans before they truly become "pitchers." Why isnt every kid on that team of 15 on the mound at some point in time during a week or two? Because the coach and parents want a "WINNING" team and want their player on a "WINNING" team. We would see a great deal more healthy players making it to higher levels if we got the coaches and parents out of the "WINNING" attitude...and into the "Lets let Johnny or Joan have some fun today." Far fetched I know...but not everyone is going to the Bigs...we still need doctors, lawyers, teachers, ministers and truck drivers.

Yes, yes, yes, GShew. I am assisting a fall program now and we have 12 kids. I am trying all 12 to see what they can do. As for innings, I don't and can't include that in judging pitchers. This ain't college or the pro's we're talking about is it? For youngsters it should be pitch count. A kid who is hitting his spots or allowing the hitters to make contact can actually get thru 7 innings with 65-70 pitches. Thats only 1-2 pitches per hitter, so its highly unlikely, but not impossible. More realisticly a young thrower goes 4 innings, throws 60 pitches and I am more than happy with him and his performance. See, if he completed the 4 innings, he got 12 outs, hopefully didn't walk the house and didn't get hit to hard. I also hope he hit some spots and changed speeds. On our fall team, we'll play 1 to 2 games a week and we hope to have pitchers go no more than 3 innings in any game. But it will be determined by pitch count first and foremost.

Gshew, I assume you are talking about a team younger than high school. This poll is intended for high school pitchers. By high school, if a kid hasn't worked on his mechanics and armstrength, he just won't pitch or if he does will never pitch in college ball. Just go to the PG website and peruse the profiles if you want to see what real pitchers can do. A lot of these kids work on their game year-round so one of your 12 "throwers" has no chance in beating him out of a scholarship.

High school coaches want to win, and it is only natural that they use their best pitchers, not the whole team. And that's the way it should be because the best pitchers usually have worked harder at this aspect of the game than the others. It's the same reason capitalism works better than communism: The hard workers and innovators are rewarded.

You say the emphasis should be on having fun, not winning. Are you serious? Have you ever been around a losing team? NO ONE is having fun.

I hear what you're saying, Coachric, about pitch counts (IMHO 65-70 is too low for high school) but with kids pitching on multiple travel teams the innings add up, too. How many is too many?

My son said he read somewhere that a good approximation for maximum innings is (Age X 10 - 10). So if a kid is 16, then 16*10=160-10= 150 Maximum Innings.

our high school team has one or two pitchers who can get outs ,maybe three.these may not be real pitchers but are consistent.they draft kids every year that didn't pitch much in high school so that really doesn't fit in.
as far as a pitch count in high school IF you struck every one out your going to throw 66 pitches.in a seven inning game i think a number for high school should be under 100 pitches.not in march either, maybe that number should be something to work up to?
this is a huge problem in baseball today,way to many kids with shoulder and arm problems.pitch counts may not fix it all but it is a start.

Bum, you make good points. But when a high school tryout is going on, most good coaches want to see the arms, then they will determine if they want to work with the kid. If he makes the team they can put him in the pen, teach him some mechanical foundation and see if he can get some people out. We had 10 pitchers (throwers) on our '02 team. 3 starters but 7 others who could come in and get the job done on any given day.
I have instructed 17 yr olds that had bad mechanics, had good arms and determination, so with lots of work, we made improvements.

I personally am against innings as an indicator because there are too many other factors, like pitches for one.
A 10 yr old throwing 10 innings can be 100 pitches or like the L.L. series average of 20 pitches per inning, then it could be 200 pitches.

A "DAYS REST" RULE needs to be in place based on # of pitches throw in a game which will control the number of innings pitched for a season.

Visit this link to review the discussion about the concern about the pitchers for Virginia’s Midlothian Post 186 run to and thru the American Legion World Series …

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9106002781/m/5401046181


Legion as well as high school needs to come up with some type of rule, nothing in NHFS in regards to pitching limits unless I missed it.

Legion has 12 innings max. in 3 consectitive days.

I came up with this model … just something to look at and modified.


2 days rest … pitch on Day 3 ... 30-50 pitches

3 days rest … pitch on Day 4 ... 51-75 pitches

4 days rest … pitch on Day 5 ... 76-100 pitches

5 days rest … pitch on Day 6 ... 101-120 pitches

Coach Ric,

I understand your emphasis on pitch-counts, but let me put the question another way. Say it's your own kid and he has been invited onto a Florida travel team that plays year-round, except for a set shut-down period. Your kid is set to pitch once per week for 10 months. That's 43 starts or about 250 innings. Would you let him do it?

The reason I'm polling this is that I am concerned somewhat in that my own son has been getting several invites to year-round events. By the end of Fall, he'll be at 152 innings and counting. I was hoping to get a HSBBW consensus on the max innings, but it appears no one has similar concerns.

Coachric: You're right. You need several pitchers and why not give a kid who wants to pitch a try? Many times I've seen what I call the "child star" pitchers out-done by last year's subs.. you just never know. But I would not pitch any kid who's flying open and is a candidate for TJ surgery. Maybe bullpen work, but not pitch.

New Jersey limits pitchers to 10 innings per week with mandated rest between appearances in high school baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Coach Ric,

I understand your emphasis on pitch-counts, but let me put the question another way. Say it's your own kid and he has been invited onto a Florida travel team that plays year-round, except for a set shut-down period. Your kid is set to pitch once per week for 10 months. That's 43 starts or about 250 innings. Would you let him do it?

The reason I'm polling this is that I am concerned somewhat in that my own son has been getting several invites to year-round events. By the end of Fall, he'll be at 152 innings and counting. I was hoping to get a HSBBW consensus on the max innings, but it appears no one has similar concerns.

While not addressed at me, I thought I would answer anyway:

It seems like too many innings regardless of the age of the player. Assuming under 14 - e.g. pre high school - I would not want him pitching in games that much - he needs to have time to develop in practices via bullpens etc. and he needs more down time than 2 months a year. I would think that less than 100 game innings (e.g. 25 4 inning outings) and another 20 quality bullpen sessions would be more than enough pitches for a year.

For a high school aged player, any team like that would need to work around his high school pitching season. I'd like to see a high school aged pitcher throw perhaps 50 innings during the season - and then another 50-75 innings with his off season team. Bullpens again are needed to develop and perfect skills - so add those into your pitch count for the year. I'd also like to see a 4-6 weeks of complete down time followed by a gradual easing back into throwing of about 6 weeks (e.g. long toss at gradually increasing distance and quantities).

Essentially the high school program is what my son's pitching coach has him on - the pre highschool is more just my opinion based on what I have learned over the years.

Hope this helps,

08

Ok, what about the contention that, years ago when kids threw more without so much supervision, there were less arm injuries? Like to hear opinions from everyone.

When son was being recruited we were told by his now college pitching caoch that apprx 100 innings PER YEAR in actual games should be the standard. This does not include all the work in bull pens and practices. Also considered is type of pitches thrown, if a pitcher is throwing mostly FB and CU, it's alot less taxing than CB and slider. Hemight be able to get more in.

250 innings a year . You are kidding right?
My college pitcher has averaged 90 per year, in regular season play and one summer.

BBD,
In answer to your question, we don't really know how much is too much, but most probably added to the fact that more coaches teach and tell their kids to throw CB and allow them to use them consistantly hasn't helped.

I think I asked you once, this former Joisey girl wants to know where you are from?

Westfield...Exit 135 off the GSP.

West Orange, can't remember what exit off the GSP!

145.

Baseballdad

In NJ does that also include the tournaments outside of HS play that go on nearly every weekend ?

No. There was a team two years ago that used its ace for three innings on a Wednesday and saves him for a County tournament game on Saturday. What the coach did not plan for was the game to be tied 2-2 fter 7 and the ace had to come out of the game. It's 10 in a week and that's it. Wait, i didn't answer you - the NJSIAA (governing body in NJ) has no jurisdiction outside of HS.

Of course I'm kidding about the 250 innings. That's insane.

150 seems about right.

Gshew, I assume you are talking about a team younger than high school. This poll is intended for high school pitchers. By high school, if a kid hasn't worked on his mechanics and armstrength, he just won't pitch or if he does will never pitch in college ball. Just go to the PG website and peruse the profiles if you want to see what real pitchers can do.

High school coaches want to win, and it is only natural that they use their best pitchers, not the whole team.

You say the emphasis should be on having fun, not winning. Are you serious? Have you ever been around a losing team? NO ONE is having fun.


Bum--you assume too much. I played my stint in the minors...I do coach HS kids...and run clinics for younger kids I will one day inhierit....I have been on losing teams...but I will tell you now I would give a whole year of Sundays for a few more days out in the sun....I believe baseball should be fun...how many pros do you hear say...Im just having fun...win lose or draw...losing isnt fun..but then again you cant win them all and I doubt seriously you have won them all...its the season..the fun of getting to play...I stand by my guns...you wear them out now...it wont matter what coach you pick..college or pro...they cant use an abused arm...DAD!

Gshew,

Hey, didn't intend to offend! Obviously if you've been to the minors you know what you're talking about, and I respect you for that.

I too, believe baseball should be fun. But we'll have to agree to disagree on one point.. I believe winning solves a lot of gripes.

At levels below high school, I agree 100% that WAY too much emphasis is placed on winning at the expense of developing players. I know because my own son, who is now the #1 pitcher on his staff, sat on the bench watching "child stars" pitch every other game.. the same child stars who are now out of the game with bad arms. But at the high school level, I think these (overlooked) kids have for the most part caught up and, at this point, the hardest workers should get the quality starts.

I'm not advocating riding the entire season on two pitchers and abusing them..no way..but the 6-7 best who have earned their stripes by working their tails off to improve their game, like my own son, should be the ones that pitch. Besides, not all the players are pitchers. They may have poor mechanics and if you pitch them you not only have a better chance of losing but they end up with arm problems.

I was at one high school game and saw their starter totally flying open. Terrible short-arm. I mentioned this to his dad after the game and suggested an instructor that could help on his kid's mechanics and this dad looked at me with a "whatever" look. No way would I have pitched that kid.

Bum---no harm no foul balls! I am with you...I watched my son play HS and college and my stepson in HS....I saw such poor mechanics in HS and dads who sat with pride while their "progeny" was actively ruining any chance of moving up because POP taught them...and of course no one is going to tell POP they is not correct. I have on occasion caught a player like that off the field and away from POP and given them the name of a good instructor or higher level coach...told them to simply ask a few questions....I wish there was a venue like this when I was coaching some of my teams....seems its easier to get it from this source than from the coach.

My son was an early maturer & a pitcher with good mechanics.I was always concerned about overuse & a friend of mine with an older pitcher got me to count pitches.Most coaches(in my experience)just want to win at all costs.They will tell you how that they will take care of his arm."I'll only use him as a closer","He won't throw more than 80 pitches today",are some quotes from them tht did not happen.With travel ball it is a lot easier to make a stand on overuse because the coach knows you can join another team.With HS ball it is more up to my son to speak up,& grow up at the same time to take care of his arm.I have had to learn a whole new way of dealing with a "part-time,underqualified HS coach".Dads need to count pitches &speak up.Teach your son how to do this prior to HS & give him confidence to speak up about his arm during games.He is the ONLY ONE who really knows HIS arm & how it feels.

For HS age (15-18)I think that 100-125 Innings,1500 pitches is the right amount of work for a strong,mechanicly sound pitcher.Throwing once or twice a week,keeping 80-90 pitch limit in games,running & cardio work,& taking 2 months off(at least)should have you where you want to be by your Senior year.

About pitch counts, innings, etc. One very important element that you don't hear many coaches talk about in reference to this topic, is pitches per inning. Letting a pitcher throw too many pitches in an inning (over 25 pitches is too many in an inning) can do a great deal of harm to a young arm, even if his overall pitch count for the game is relatively low. There needs to be a break from throwing a great deal of pitches in an inning, not just in a game.

A good rule of thumb for resting an arm is to allow one hour of rest for every pitch thrown in a game, provided the boy feels good--no pain, etc. Figure it out--this formula works for relievers and starters and is why relievers can go just about every day with no adverse effects.

3up-3down: Love the moniker. Way more creative than "Bum". What you said about early maturers makes me wonder. As a late maturer, my son did a lot of sitting before, but he's doing a lot of pitching now.. projected at about 155 innings this year. I have a question, though. You said you think it is best to shut-down 2 months. You mean throwing from a mound, not long-toss, right? There are two schools of thought out there.. school 1 says long-toss year-round, school 2 says shut down completely. My own son has thrown year-round and has never had arm problems.. is your kid's arm ok?

Blue Skies, your formula sounds right. Thanks.

Pre-HS his routine was to do no throwing at all from mid-November to mid-January.Basicly to give him a break,mentally & physically.Play some basketball for school.By the end of basketball season,he's got the itch to get back on the baseball field.I have been told that younger,growing arms need some shut-down time.As you can see by the amount of baseball he has played I thought this was a good idea.His arm is fine,thanks.

My HS junior son has thrown 119 innings this year. He hasn't pitched in a game since August 5th in the Mickey Mantle World Series. He has 3 college showcases and a PG tournament in Jupiter to finish up the year starting this weekend at A&M. He should be at around 130-135 innings this year when all is said and done. That's probably double what he's ever thrown in one calendar year. We're planning on resting his arm the months of November and December and crank up in January to get ready for spring which starts the last week of January. He had dropped in speed about 2-3 miles an hour over the last couple of months prior to the MMWS. I think the workload on his shoulder was the main reason. His arm was just plain tired. I would like to see him throw no more than 100 innings next year.

In high school I find that many of the better pitchers are also SS/3B. I can’t count the number of times that I have seen a kid throw 80-100 pitches one day and come back the next 2 or 3 games at SS or 3B before their next start on the mound.

I think you need to look beyond pitch count and innings on these young arms that play other positions. They need to sure they are giving themselves time to recover.

quote:

Originally posted by jerseydad:
In high school I find that many of the better pitchers are also SS/3B. I can’t count the number of times that I have seen a kid throw 80-100 pitches one day and come back the next 2 or 3 games at SS or 3B before their next start on the mound. I think you need to look beyond pitch count and innings on these young arms that play other positions. They need to sure they are giving themselves time to recover.

I agree.

The worst thing for a P to do is to pitch and then go to C, 3B, or SS (be it the next day or the next inning).

When my P's aren't pitching, I like them to play 1B, 2B, or OF.

Baseballdad1228 I use to get off exit 145 when I worked in Whippany. Central Jersey guy here.