My son is 13 yo. Not a big kid. He is 5'3 and weighs 105lbs. He has been catching for about 4 years and is finally moving up to the "big" fields. His coach timed his pop time at 2.7 consistantly. Is this pretty good??
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JohnT-Welcome and hope you stick around. Lots can be learned here.
Your question is a tough one to answer. Is it good compared to what? To the best 13 year old in the country. Probably not, but the best 13 year old catcher in the country may be biologically three years older than your son. To the other catchers on his team maybe so. You probably get my drift.
Right now I would have him work on his receiving, arm strength, and footwork and once he starts to grow he will be in position to have that hard work pay off.
I will say I was at my son's future high school's freshman game the other day (decent baseball school) and their best catcher was about a 2.5 so he should be on the right track to have a playable pop time. Wouldn't worry about it too much other than a barometer to see if the drill work, etc he is doing is resulting in improvement.
Your question is a tough one to answer. Is it good compared to what? To the best 13 year old in the country. Probably not, but the best 13 year old catcher in the country may be biologically three years older than your son. To the other catchers on his team maybe so. You probably get my drift.
Right now I would have him work on his receiving, arm strength, and footwork and once he starts to grow he will be in position to have that hard work pay off.
I will say I was at my son's future high school's freshman game the other day (decent baseball school) and their best catcher was about a 2.5 so he should be on the right track to have a playable pop time. Wouldn't worry about it too much other than a barometer to see if the drill work, etc he is doing is resulting in improvement.
John T,
When my boy played all in HS, he was a pitcher of some note. The starting catcher on his team had probably the weakest arm I’ve ever seen in a HSV catcher. He threw out threw out only 18 of 65 runners in 60 games for a rate of 28%. That may look pretty bad at 1st, but there more to the story. In all that time, he only made 2 errors of any kind, he had only 7 PBs, and his pitchers only had a total of 24 WPs.
On the team I score for now, for 3 seasons we had one of the areas best catchers. He had an arm like a cannon and threw out 38% of all runners, but only the very best tried to steal on him as can be seen in only 48 runners attempting to steal in 3 years. But even though he was very good at that part of the game, he was noted as being a catcher who stopped almost everything that came in. But even as good as he was, he still had 17 PBs and his pitchers had 57 WPs.
That’s about 1 PB every 5 games, and 1 WP every 5 innings, for a pitching staff that had 7 players move on to college ball. But the kid who caught for my son who had the poor arm, had only one PB every 8 games, and allowed a WP about every 17 innings, with a pitching staff that had only 2 pitchers move on.
The point of the story is, there’s a whole lot of ways a catcher can help his pitchers and therefore the team. Yes, its great to have a guy who can gun down the fastest runners, but its also extremely important to have a guy who isn’t allowing many balls to go to the backstop. Its amazing how much it helps that the pitcher doesn’t have to worry about throwing a ball in the dirt when there are runners on. It gives them a lot of confidence and adds a great dimension to the defense.
When my boy played all in HS, he was a pitcher of some note. The starting catcher on his team had probably the weakest arm I’ve ever seen in a HSV catcher. He threw out threw out only 18 of 65 runners in 60 games for a rate of 28%. That may look pretty bad at 1st, but there more to the story. In all that time, he only made 2 errors of any kind, he had only 7 PBs, and his pitchers only had a total of 24 WPs.
On the team I score for now, for 3 seasons we had one of the areas best catchers. He had an arm like a cannon and threw out 38% of all runners, but only the very best tried to steal on him as can be seen in only 48 runners attempting to steal in 3 years. But even though he was very good at that part of the game, he was noted as being a catcher who stopped almost everything that came in. But even as good as he was, he still had 17 PBs and his pitchers had 57 WPs.
That’s about 1 PB every 5 games, and 1 WP every 5 innings, for a pitching staff that had 7 players move on to college ball. But the kid who caught for my son who had the poor arm, had only one PB every 8 games, and allowed a WP about every 17 innings, with a pitching staff that had only 2 pitchers move on.
The point of the story is, there’s a whole lot of ways a catcher can help his pitchers and therefore the team. Yes, its great to have a guy who can gun down the fastest runners, but its also extremely important to have a guy who isn’t allowing many balls to go to the backstop. Its amazing how much it helps that the pitcher doesn’t have to worry about throwing a ball in the dirt when there are runners on. It gives them a lot of confidence and adds a great dimension to the defense.
Get him working on foot work , arm strength , and general overall strength. Doesnt seem too bad for a kid of that age and size
@ 14U my son's pop was 1.9. He is now a Pitcher & SS. The catchers gear is in the basement collecting dust.
All the advice given so far is good. Good blocking and receiveing skills will go along way. When my son has a lot of confidence in his catcher I believe it makes him a better pitcher.
All the advice given so far is good. Good blocking and receiveing skills will go along way. When my son has a lot of confidence in his catcher I believe it makes him a better pitcher.
quote:Originally posted by Thurm:
… When my son has a lot of confidence in his catcher I believe it makes him a better pitcher.
I believe that too, but the thing is, a pitcher has to learn to still pitch aggressively and with great confidence, even if the guy behind the plate is absolutely atrocious. After all, a manager or team owner isn’t going to want to hear that unless there’s a top flight catcher behind the plate, he can’t be expected to produce his “A” game.
In order of importance to catching.
1. Receiving
2. Blocking
3. Throwing
However, you asked about his pop time. You have had some good answers bc it varies greatly at such a young age. You mentioned he is 5'3 105. His time will come down naturally as he grows and gets stronger. To work on his time, footwork and transfer skills are the most important thing he can do so that when he grows stronger, he does not have to fix poor mechanics. Better to one hop 2nd base now with a good release rather than winding up to try to get the ball to 2nd in the air. I have a few catching posts on my blog if you are interested.
Http://rileyperformancetraining.wordpress.com
1. Receiving
2. Blocking
3. Throwing
However, you asked about his pop time. You have had some good answers bc it varies greatly at such a young age. You mentioned he is 5'3 105. His time will come down naturally as he grows and gets stronger. To work on his time, footwork and transfer skills are the most important thing he can do so that when he grows stronger, he does not have to fix poor mechanics. Better to one hop 2nd base now with a good release rather than winding up to try to get the ball to 2nd in the air. I have a few catching posts on my blog if you are interested.
Http://rileyperformancetraining.wordpress.com
quote:In order of importance to catching.
1A. Hitting1. Receiving
2. Blocking
3. Throwing
quote:Originally posted by YesReally:quote:In order of importance to catching.
1A. Hitting1. Receiving
2. Blocking
3. Throwing
Our Var coach.....
1. size
2. arm (after the lunch break to get rid of the ball)
3. perception of hitting (caveman approach)
4. receiving
5. blocking
Ridiculous I know but its the cards we've been dealt.
quote:Originally posted by slbaseballdad:
Our Var coach.....
1. size
2. arm (after the lunch break to get rid of the ball)
3. perception of hitting (caveman approach)
4. receiving
5. blocking
Ridiculous I know but its the cards we've been dealt.
Just out of curiosity, how old is your coach, and what’s the record of the last 5 teams he’s coached?
Welcome to the site and make sure to look around because this place is filled with tons of stuff. Thankfully the vast majority of it is actually good even if it's people going at it with differing viewpoints.
As to your question - no a 2.7 is not a good pop time. The magic number has always been 2.0 and to drop it down .7 of a second is very difficult to do. I don't care how quick the pitcher is to the plate or how well he holds runners. A 2.7 will not throw out an average high school runner.
The good news is your son is almost a blank slate and can learn / develop into a stronger arm.
Quick story - we had a freshman (who is now a junior) and he was a beast behind the plate. He received well (we had a junior throwing upper 80's to low 90's at the time) and did a great job blocking. He did everything behind the plate that you wanted except throw well. His time was around a 2.7 as well as a freshman and we gave up some stolen bases but felt in the long run since he was young and could catch a guy throwing 90's it would be worth giving up some stolen bases if we could get someone to catch our pitchers.
Now as a junior he is down to a 2.2 - 2.1 and has hit the 2.0 mark but not consistently. He got here from growing / maturing like your son will do. But he worked on his footwork, transfer and release while learning to throw long toss. All these added up together lowered his time and we're hoping it can be a consistent 2.0 - 2.1 next season.
This is where your son is - he can get and be better if he puts the work on. Everyone here has put some excellent advice and there's nothing I can really add.
Good luck to your son and let us know how he progresses.
As to your question - no a 2.7 is not a good pop time. The magic number has always been 2.0 and to drop it down .7 of a second is very difficult to do. I don't care how quick the pitcher is to the plate or how well he holds runners. A 2.7 will not throw out an average high school runner.
The good news is your son is almost a blank slate and can learn / develop into a stronger arm.
Quick story - we had a freshman (who is now a junior) and he was a beast behind the plate. He received well (we had a junior throwing upper 80's to low 90's at the time) and did a great job blocking. He did everything behind the plate that you wanted except throw well. His time was around a 2.7 as well as a freshman and we gave up some stolen bases but felt in the long run since he was young and could catch a guy throwing 90's it would be worth giving up some stolen bases if we could get someone to catch our pitchers.
Now as a junior he is down to a 2.2 - 2.1 and has hit the 2.0 mark but not consistently. He got here from growing / maturing like your son will do. But he worked on his footwork, transfer and release while learning to throw long toss. All these added up together lowered his time and we're hoping it can be a consistent 2.0 - 2.1 next season.
This is where your son is - he can get and be better if he puts the work on. Everyone here has put some excellent advice and there's nothing I can really add.
Good luck to your son and let us know how he progresses.
First off, is the 2.7 a legit time? Many people/coaches aren't capable of getting the time right. Use a video camera to get a real time.
From stats I've seen, kids throwing 75 can get to a 2.0 pop time or thereabouts, so average arm strength can get a catcher to get to an acceptable time with good mechanics.
From stats I've seen, kids throwing 75 can get to a 2.0 pop time or thereabouts, so average arm strength can get a catcher to get to an acceptable time with good mechanics.
Welcome.
There are a few threads on this in the Catching forum. You'll find lots of help there. Also a good group of experts who check in regularly on various topics.
There are a few threads on this in the Catching forum. You'll find lots of help there. Also a good group of experts who check in regularly on various topics.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:quote:Originally posted by slbaseballdad:
Our Var coach.....
1. size
2. arm (after the lunch break to get rid of the ball)
3. perception of hitting (caveman approach)
4. receiving
5. blocking
Ridiculous I know but its the cards we've been dealt.
Just out of curiosity, how old is your coach, and what’s the record of the last 5 teams he’s coached?
under .500 except for one year when they made the playoffs.
Hold on, folks. He said his kid is 13 and just moving to the big field.
2.0 or under is a pop time you'd like to see an elite HS catcher do, especially if he's thinking he'll play D-1 college ball.
A solid HS varsity catcher, not D-1 bound, more commonly comes in around 2.2-2.3. At that time, you'll see plenty of stolen bases, but that is kind of the norm, isn't it?
Honestly I don't know what would be a solid time at 13u, because I've never compared players at that age. My gut instinct is that 2.7 is just fine, especially if your kid is a typical 13 and not one of those who already has a full beard. Pop time not only measures footwork and quickness, but also arm strength (velocity), and most 13's are still struggling just to get it to 2nd on the fly, not exactly sending a Johnny Bench rifle shot down there.
So, don't panic over 2.0. Focus on fundamentals, test him every 4-6 months but not all the time, and see how things progress over the next 2-4 years.
2.0 or under is a pop time you'd like to see an elite HS catcher do, especially if he's thinking he'll play D-1 college ball.
A solid HS varsity catcher, not D-1 bound, more commonly comes in around 2.2-2.3. At that time, you'll see plenty of stolen bases, but that is kind of the norm, isn't it?
Honestly I don't know what would be a solid time at 13u, because I've never compared players at that age. My gut instinct is that 2.7 is just fine, especially if your kid is a typical 13 and not one of those who already has a full beard. Pop time not only measures footwork and quickness, but also arm strength (velocity), and most 13's are still struggling just to get it to 2nd on the fly, not exactly sending a Johnny Bench rifle shot down there.
So, don't panic over 2.0. Focus on fundamentals, test him every 4-6 months but not all the time, and see how things progress over the next 2-4 years.
Good catchers receive well, block well, and throw well. You are not a good catcher unless you're good at all of those things.
Anyone who thinks throwing is not important needs to go watch the higher levels of college or professional baseball. Count the number of catchers you see with weak arms. Also count the number you see with strong arms.
I hope the wrong message isn't sent to young kids regarding the importance of throwing and pop times. There is a good reason why all those college coaches and MLB scouts carry stop watches. Knowing your pop time can make it easier to confirm that you are improving your pop time.
The 2.7 mentioned earlier really doesn't matter. Obviously he is going to get much better as he gets older. I would be more concerned with whether or not he has a good arm for his age. Even that doesn't mean he will or won't gain substantial arm strength over the nexst few years.
JohnT, It will be interesting to know what that 5-3/105 looks like in 3 years.
Anyone who thinks throwing is not important needs to go watch the higher levels of college or professional baseball. Count the number of catchers you see with weak arms. Also count the number you see with strong arms.
I hope the wrong message isn't sent to young kids regarding the importance of throwing and pop times. There is a good reason why all those college coaches and MLB scouts carry stop watches. Knowing your pop time can make it easier to confirm that you are improving your pop time.
The 2.7 mentioned earlier really doesn't matter. Obviously he is going to get much better as he gets older. I would be more concerned with whether or not he has a good arm for his age. Even that doesn't mean he will or won't gain substantial arm strength over the nexst few years.
JohnT, It will be interesting to know what that 5-3/105 looks like in 3 years.
Midlo Dad,
Thanx for at least trying to bring some sanity to the conversation. No matter how hard I try, I can’t understand why it is that so many people take such huge leaps, and go from something like the pop time of a 13YO, to the kind of pop times that as you note, are something you’ll most likely see in a HS elite catcher, not likely in a kid new to the HS ranks, or even an average but fully adequate HSV catcher.
So, your advice of not panicking and to just focus on fundies, is pretty much right on target.
Having said that though, I want to comment on this.
“A solid HS varsity catcher, not D-1 bound, more commonly comes in around 2.2-2.3. At that time, you'll see plenty of stolen bases, but that is kind of the norm, isn't it?”
I think you’re pretty much in the ballpark with the times, but I don’t know that even with slower times than that there’d be a whole lot of SBs. Now if SBs depended only on the catcher’s pop time, it would prolly be much more true, but since it depends on may other factors, like the ability of the pitcher to get the ball to the catcher, the accuracy of the throw, the ability of the runner to read the pitcher, and the foot speed and sliding ability of the runner.
I’d never say that a good pop time wasn’t important, but I will say that in the “AVERAGE” HS game, there’s not gonna be a merry-go-round on the base paths because runners are stealing every base in sight, even if the pitcher is average, the catcher is average. The reason is, there aren’t that many runners who are good enough to take advantage, and more importantly, not a many coaches who will have the runners going as what people believe.
Thanx for at least trying to bring some sanity to the conversation.
No matter how hard I try, I can’t understand why it is that so many people take such huge leaps, and go from something like the pop time of a 13YO, to the kind of pop times that as you note, are something you’ll most likely see in a HS elite catcher, not likely in a kid new to the HS ranks, or even an average but fully adequate HSV catcher. So, your advice of not panicking and to just focus on fundies, is pretty much right on target.
Having said that though, I want to comment on this.
“A solid HS varsity catcher, not D-1 bound, more commonly comes in around 2.2-2.3. At that time, you'll see plenty of stolen bases, but that is kind of the norm, isn't it?”
I think you’re pretty much in the ballpark with the times, but I don’t know that even with slower times than that there’d be a whole lot of SBs. Now if SBs depended only on the catcher’s pop time, it would prolly be much more true, but since it depends on may other factors, like the ability of the pitcher to get the ball to the catcher, the accuracy of the throw, the ability of the runner to read the pitcher, and the foot speed and sliding ability of the runner.
I’d never say that a good pop time wasn’t important, but I will say that in the “AVERAGE” HS game, there’s not gonna be a merry-go-round on the base paths because runners are stealing every base in sight, even if the pitcher is average, the catcher is average. The reason is, there aren’t that many runners who are good enough to take advantage, and more importantly, not a many coaches who will have the runners going as what people believe.
John,
First off, defense means squat in any sport. People who score runs, points, goals, etc are what tantalizes coaches and fans. Pop up was always a good defensive player, he has now moved up to HBC (Head Bullpen Catcher). Due to his so so offense, he will go no farther. So the moral is this, 99% of baseball players hope to go as far as possible, anyone in college that says otherwise is blowing smoke. If you can hit and you don't block so well, slow pop time, they will move you somewhere else.
If son absolutely wants to catch, work on the hitting most of the time. Take this from a dad who has experienced it first hand.
First off, defense means squat in any sport. People who score runs, points, goals, etc are what tantalizes coaches and fans. Pop up was always a good defensive player, he has now moved up to HBC (Head Bullpen Catcher). Due to his so so offense, he will go no farther. So the moral is this, 99% of baseball players hope to go as far as possible, anyone in college that says otherwise is blowing smoke. If you can hit and you don't block so well, slow pop time, they will move you somewhere else.
If son absolutely wants to catch, work on the hitting most of the time. Take this from a dad who has experienced it first hand.
quote:Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
First off, defense means squat in any sport. People who score runs, points, goals, etc are what tantalizes coaches and fans.
If son absolutely wants to catch, work on the hitting most of the time. Take this from a dad who has experienced it first hand.
I agree very strongly. Good defensive players are a dime a dozen. The key is finding one who is a good or excellent hitter. He can be the greatest catcher (blocking, throwing, etc) since sliced bread, but if he can't hit, he won't go far.
I've got to disagree somewhat with the last two posts. While good defensive players might be a dime a dozen, GREAT defensive players are not. Many college coaches will give up some hitting for an outstanding shortstop, defensive catcher or even center fielder. It's true there are many good defensive players riding the pine in college but the truly standout difference makers are in the lineup even if they are a weaker hitter than someone else as long as they can at least hold their own with a bat.
quote:Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
First off, defense means squat in any sport.
Hope you never run into Bill Belichick. I never heard anything more ridiculous in my time on these boards.
quote:First off, defense means squat in any sport.
If that's the case why do College & Pro's recruit pitching first & foremost??????
Threebagger, any examples in MLB you can name?
Redsox, must admit a poor choice of words. More like defense takes second place to offense. I was a bit over the top, however much defense is needed, you only seem to hear about so and so scoring x runs/points. I still stand behind concentrating on hitting above all else, hence my screen name.
Pop UP Hitter Dad,
I can name a lot of ML players that can't hit OR field at that level. This is of course recognizing the they are a hundred times better than we are at these skills. Some guys known as great fielders who really are not even good hitters at the ML level include Ronnie Cedeno 2100+ AB's, .286 career OBP,.246 ave.; Jack Wilson, shortstop, .307 career OBP none over .300 since 2008; James Loney 1B with a career .778 OPS, last year 12 HRs 65 RBI typical year for him, terrible hitter for a first baseman; Juan Uribwe, 3B career .298 OBP, .721 OPS in 4600+ AB's; Scott Hairston, .303 OBP, .244 lifetime ave. in 1800+ AB. The list goes on and on...including Brooks Robinson the last five years of his career and Hall of Famer Bill Mazeroski for almost all of his career.
I can name a lot of ML players that can't hit OR field at that level. This is of course recognizing the they are a hundred times better than we are at these skills. Some guys known as great fielders who really are not even good hitters at the ML level include Ronnie Cedeno 2100+ AB's, .286 career OBP,.246 ave.; Jack Wilson, shortstop, .307 career OBP none over .300 since 2008; James Loney 1B with a career .778 OPS, last year 12 HRs 65 RBI typical year for him, terrible hitter for a first baseman; Juan Uribwe, 3B career .298 OBP, .721 OPS in 4600+ AB's; Scott Hairston, .303 OBP, .244 lifetime ave. in 1800+ AB. The list goes on and on...including Brooks Robinson the last five years of his career and Hall of Famer Bill Mazeroski for almost all of his career.
quote:Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
Redsox, must admit a poor choice of words. More like defense takes second place to offense. I was a bit over the top, however much defense is needed, you only seem to hear about so and so scoring x runs/points. I still stand behind concentrating on hitting above all else, hence my screen name.
LOL, my apologies for my over the top representation of it being the most ridiculous thing I've read here. You've been around much longer here than I and I appreciate many of your posts. Play Ball!
Some good reading in this thread. I feel better knowing that catcher is a star on both sides of the ball..... 
Insert sarcasm here......
Insert sarcasm here......
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Hold on, folks. He said his kid is 13 and just moving to the big field.
Thank you.
What is important skills for catchers changes as they move up the ladder. FWIW, there are a slew of catchers that are now pitchers at the pro level, one of the reasons being they couldn't hit, or pop time not good enough to stop the running game.
BTW, for anyone interested Cardinals catcher Robert Stock was just converted to pitcher.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Hold on, folks. He said his kid is 13 and just moving to the big field.
Thank you.
What is important skills for catchers changes as they move up the ladder. FWIW, there are a slew of catchers that are now pitchers at the pro level, one of the reasons being they couldn't hit, or pop time not good enough to stop the running game.
BTW, for anyone interested Cardinals catcher Robert Stock was just converted to pitcher.
It's because they can't hit. Molina was a .200 hitter but threw folks out and his hitting developed to average now.
Jason Motte threw folks out what an arm, couldn't
hit a lick he's now a very good closer.
Stock can't hit now to the mound. Harper now to right field, he could throw but not the defensive player need at catcher, could hit so now they say he's too valuable to put behind the plate.
This illustrates the absurd to some extent and why the MLB has such problem developing catchers.
The big arm big kid, that can't run, is the best catcher candidate, not so much... looking where this kind ends up.