The "cream" will eventually separate from the rest of the milk! Sometimes, it just takes a little longer.
Mythreesons and itsallgood
If you can do a better job than PBR ....Go for it !
If you can do a better job than PBR ....Go for it !
quote:Originally posted by mythreesons:
Am I the only one who questions the objectivity of PBR? When you call yourself "The Truth", but you're financially related to MVP/Full Package/Top Tier, can you really be objective? Or would your opinion naturally be swayed to favor players who support your business ventures?
I was in the middle of bringing this up when rosy suggested moving on. :-) Since it's brought up now, I'll comment!
No, you're not the only one - I've heard this from others, too. I don't think it's a big deal, though. IMO, this is about which is influencing which and how? Isn't it equally POSSIBLE that Top Tier looks to PBR for which players they'll recruit? Isn't it a reasonable assumption that the two parts of one organization would rely on one another for info? How stupid would TT have to be to pass up players their own organization thought were the best? And I think there are other reasons to assume this isn't as unobjective as all that.
First, they can only assess what they see - and they see more of the kids who go to their showcases. Part of their assessment comes from coaches, and there's another opinion! I know of a kid who, most people seem to agree, is the best on his team. The kid hasn't been able to do showcases and the coach is all behind promoting Player2 harder. Player2 is ranked well by PBR, Player1 not at all. Not PBR's fault, not even the coach's fault, just the way it is.
In the end, though, I think anything that gives these boys, any portion of them, another way to get noticed is a good thing, because I don't honestly believe (and neither do you!) that there's a coach or scout anywhere fleshing out his dream roster based on PBR. It's a tool for them, and I'm glad of it's existence. Is there room on the market for other publications? Sure - PBR's mostly a "best of" approach and the public could stand a general reporting effort. http://www.ihsbaseballreport.com might grow into filling that niche in time, or someone else might come along - and I'll subscribe if they do!
This talk about Top Tier players getting preferential treatment in the magazine comes up frequently. First of all, let me say (again) the integrity of the magazine is the most important thing to me and I will not allow one or two players to compromise that.
With that said, Top Tier has a reputation of having a lot of talented players. So do the Illinois Orioles, the Sparks, Norwood Blues, SI Bullets, Lombard Lightning, etc. It's like this in basketball, too. The top players usually gravitate toward 3-4 elite programs.
With that said, one of the heads of Top Tier was my best man at my wedding. I see a lot of baseball, go to all the showcases and many games. If I see a player who is very good, I'll naturally tell him about the player. If Top Tier chooses to contact the player, that is up to him and the other coaches. I frankly don't care if they do.
I am not swayed by who plays for what travel team. Honestly, I don't even know where everyone plays. But if I see a kid throwing 86-89 mph and no one's really seen the player that much -- as was the case three weeks ago -- then I'll let him know about the player. If the player happens to be playing with another team, he will still be listed (ranked is such a loaded word on this board) where he deserves.
sd
With that said, Top Tier has a reputation of having a lot of talented players. So do the Illinois Orioles, the Sparks, Norwood Blues, SI Bullets, Lombard Lightning, etc. It's like this in basketball, too. The top players usually gravitate toward 3-4 elite programs.
With that said, one of the heads of Top Tier was my best man at my wedding. I see a lot of baseball, go to all the showcases and many games. If I see a player who is very good, I'll naturally tell him about the player. If Top Tier chooses to contact the player, that is up to him and the other coaches. I frankly don't care if they do.
I am not swayed by who plays for what travel team. Honestly, I don't even know where everyone plays. But if I see a kid throwing 86-89 mph and no one's really seen the player that much -- as was the case three weeks ago -- then I'll let him know about the player. If the player happens to be playing with another team, he will still be listed (ranked is such a loaded word on this board) where he deserves.
sd
Beenthere,
JP, I thoroughly enjoyed your post. So much old school wisdom and suggestions for the younger group. Combining long-toss with running and doing it alone is a new one on me. Boy, have the times changed. Thanks for an enjoyable read.
JP, I thoroughly enjoyed your post. So much old school wisdom and suggestions for the younger group. Combining long-toss with running and doing it alone is a new one on me. Boy, have the times changed. Thanks for an enjoyable read.
I love it when asking a question is equated with "sour grapes". I never said I had a problem with PBR doing what it does, I just think that people in general are unaware of the relationship that exists between PBR, Top Tier and MVP. The reporters from our local papers were definitely unaware of the ties.
To me it's like a restaurant claiming to have the "world's best" pizza, only to find out that the voting was done by the people who supply the cheese that goes on the pizza. I think it's reasonable to expect that players who are attending MVP training/showcases (in other words, keeping the business afloat) might get preferential treatment... wouldn't making the list prove that the money mom and dad are spending at MVP is money well spent?
To me it's like a restaurant claiming to have the "world's best" pizza, only to find out that the voting was done by the people who supply the cheese that goes on the pizza. I think it's reasonable to expect that players who are attending MVP training/showcases (in other words, keeping the business afloat) might get preferential treatment... wouldn't making the list prove that the money mom and dad are spending at MVP is money well spent?
I guess I'm also a bit curious as to why the original post by Sean Duncan isn't considered to be outside the boundaries established for this board... isn't advertising prohibited activity? I wouldn't have a problem if the PBR was free, but you do have to have a paid subscription to get it...
The bottom line is this ....players get noticed and receive recognition based on their performances at showcases and their abilities on the field , not by who they are or are not affilliated with. PBR would lose their credibility if they ignored players based on which organization they are with.
Mythreesons
What evidence do you have to back up your comments ?
Mythreesons
What evidence do you have to back up your comments ?
You say "players get noticed and receive recognition based on their performances at showcases and their abilities on the field , not by who they are or are not affilliated with"
Isn't the PBR supposed to be about rating high school baseball? What about the high school player who isn't able to attend showcases? Shouldn't he be judged by his performance on the high school field?
And many, many good players DO NOT get noticed... it's just not that easy. If being good is indeed enough, then why do so many parents spend so much time and energy on showcases, scouting agencies, elite summer teams, etc? Shouldn't we all just sit around and wait for our sons to get noticed?
The fact is good players do get overlooked and underrated - there are so many variables to the baseball recruiting process and to the game of baseball for that matter. The best infielder around could spend an entire weekend tournament at 2nd base and never get a ball hit to him in front of the coach or scout who's there to see him play. That's baseball. The window of opportunity to be recruited is so short. Even knowing where to showcase can be difficult to figure out - we're on son #2 of 3, and we're still learning from our mistakes.
You ask what evidence I have to back up my comments... what comment did I make that requires evidence to back it up? I am simply stating my opinion. The connection between PBR/Top Tier/MVP is a fact, if that's what you're referring to. Whether or not the relationship between them matters or not is up to each individual to determine. I just feel full disclosure is a good policy, and I think when the local papers pick up on the PBR ratings and print the lists they do a disservice to the readers by not mentioning it.
Isn't the PBR supposed to be about rating high school baseball? What about the high school player who isn't able to attend showcases? Shouldn't he be judged by his performance on the high school field?
And many, many good players DO NOT get noticed... it's just not that easy. If being good is indeed enough, then why do so many parents spend so much time and energy on showcases, scouting agencies, elite summer teams, etc? Shouldn't we all just sit around and wait for our sons to get noticed?
The fact is good players do get overlooked and underrated - there are so many variables to the baseball recruiting process and to the game of baseball for that matter. The best infielder around could spend an entire weekend tournament at 2nd base and never get a ball hit to him in front of the coach or scout who's there to see him play. That's baseball. The window of opportunity to be recruited is so short. Even knowing where to showcase can be difficult to figure out - we're on son #2 of 3, and we're still learning from our mistakes.
You ask what evidence I have to back up my comments... what comment did I make that requires evidence to back it up? I am simply stating my opinion. The connection between PBR/Top Tier/MVP is a fact, if that's what you're referring to. Whether or not the relationship between them matters or not is up to each individual to determine. I just feel full disclosure is a good policy, and I think when the local papers pick up on the PBR ratings and print the lists they do a disservice to the readers by not mentioning it.
PBR doesnt hide the fact about their relationship with top tier/MVP ..Its a known fact . Your comments suggested that their relationship with top tier and how they rate/ rank /list players or however you want to phrase it, is somehow connected to it . You believe that PBR is biased ...you said it yourself . Im asking you what evidence do you have of this ? Pretty simple question . If you are going to come on the board and make unfounded accusations , you need to back it up with something.
Parents spend a lot of time and money going to different showcases/tournaments/events/ etc because they realize that the more different scouts/colleges/ that see the player perform the better . Unless the player is some kind of a stud , more is usually better than less.
If a scout is interested in a player , they will usually come out and watch him take BP and infield/ outfield practice before the game
Parents spend a lot of time and money going to different showcases/tournaments/events/ etc because they realize that the more different scouts/colleges/ that see the player perform the better . Unless the player is some kind of a stud , more is usually better than less.
If a scout is interested in a player , they will usually come out and watch him take BP and infield/ outfield practice before the game
Well, I re-read what I posted - I didn't say PBR was hiding anything... However, I disagree that it's a "known fact".
I also never said PBR was biased... I said the potential for bias exists and people should just be aware of the connection when they print and/or read PBR rankings. No accusations, unfounded or otherwise. Just one person's observation and opinion.
I also never said PBR was biased... I said the potential for bias exists and people should just be aware of the connection when they print and/or read PBR rankings. No accusations, unfounded or otherwise. Just one person's observation and opinion.
I still think that My3sons makes a valid point. It's a nice publication but there are reasonable questions to be asked.
Beentherein IL.....what the heck did your rambling comments about the old days have to do with the points made?
For those who are strong in their defense of PBR/MVP/Top Tier, how many of you are connected to any of those entities?
I've heard that Mr. Duncan is a great guy and will publicize anyone who is deserving, but I do think it (PBR) is somewhat diminshed by being Top Tier's shill.
Answer my questions and that's all I have to say about this.
Beentherein IL.....what the heck did your rambling comments about the old days have to do with the points made?
For those who are strong in their defense of PBR/MVP/Top Tier, how many of you are connected to any of those entities?
I've heard that Mr. Duncan is a great guy and will publicize anyone who is deserving, but I do think it (PBR) is somewhat diminshed by being Top Tier's shill.
Answer my questions and that's all I have to say about this.
quote:Originally posted by PBR:
I have received many emails about when the next Prep Baseball Report is coming out. Many questioned if I had fallen into a dark hole, never to be found again.
The next issue will be in the mail May 5.
I apologize about the extended delay, but please trust that I've been hitting the baseball fields all over the state to bring you the most current, accurate, and hopefully incisive bathroom-reading material possible.
Thanks,
Sean Duncan
Mythreesons,
Is this what you're calling advertising? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?
Sean goes to quite a few games and sees more teams in a season than 99% of us.
Unfortunatley, he does not have cross checkers, a scouting director, associate scouts and bird dogs, etc... I have debated Sean on certain players too. I have heard him mention players that were never on my radar screen.
Sean relies heavily on information from HS coaches. However, some coaches do not speak up about some of the talent on their teams.
Instead of knocking SD and the integrity of the magazine, write to him directly to express your opinions (duncan@prepbaseballreport.com) and feed him info that you think that he is overlooking.
fyi...
Top Tier, PBR and MVP have complete different ownership structures
Top Tier pays for the use of the MVP facility and does not get free subscriptions to PBR
Top Tier trys to select the best players in Illinois. Therefore, some of them will be in PBR
Top Tier & MVP have no involvement with selecting players in PBR. As a matter of fact, Sean will not let me see the new issues until they have been released and circulated to the subscribers.
If you feel that you know a; player, team or event that deserves recognition in the magazine contact - Sean Duncan (duncan@prepbaseballreport.com). I am sure that he is always looking for a refreshing story or a new kid on the block.
If you feel that you have a player that has the talent to play on Top Tier go to our Player Recommendation Form:. Or contact us at, info@toptierfp.com
If you would like to train at MVP or take some BP call Ron Ehrens (847) 549-1687
None of these companies are trying to offend anyone. However, we do have one thing in common...
We all have passion and love for this game.
Unfortunatley, he does not have cross checkers, a scouting director, associate scouts and bird dogs, etc... I have debated Sean on certain players too. I have heard him mention players that were never on my radar screen.
Sean relies heavily on information from HS coaches. However, some coaches do not speak up about some of the talent on their teams.
Instead of knocking SD and the integrity of the magazine, write to him directly to express your opinions (duncan@prepbaseballreport.com) and feed him info that you think that he is overlooking.
fyi...
Top Tier, PBR and MVP have complete different ownership structures
Top Tier pays for the use of the MVP facility and does not get free subscriptions to PBR
Top Tier trys to select the best players in Illinois. Therefore, some of them will be in PBR
Top Tier & MVP have no involvement with selecting players in PBR. As a matter of fact, Sean will not let me see the new issues until they have been released and circulated to the subscribers.
If you feel that you know a; player, team or event that deserves recognition in the magazine contact - Sean Duncan (duncan@prepbaseballreport.com). I am sure that he is always looking for a refreshing story or a new kid on the block.
If you feel that you have a player that has the talent to play on Top Tier go to our Player Recommendation Form:. Or contact us at, info@toptierfp.com
If you would like to train at MVP or take some BP call Ron Ehrens (847) 549-1687
None of these companies are trying to offend anyone. However, we do have one thing in common...
We all have passion and love for this game.
PBR is definitely beneficial to the KIDS!!!!!I know of several college coaches who have used this and made calls to me personally about kids who I would have never thought they would know of.... The reason they know of these kids is because of PBR.... Ranking of players by the PBR staff is PBR staff opinion only... College coaches do not take the rankings to heart...They talk to scouts, other coaches about the kids mentioned in PBR... Great exposure for the KIDS and thats what this game is suppose to be about.... Not for us "has beens" or wannabes.... It is for the KIDS>>>
and PBR is definitely helping out the KIDS>>>
I wish someone else would put out a publication like this and we would have something to compare it to...Right now....PBR is the best thing a kid could ask for... unless the magazine is being used as an edge in recrutiment of players for summer team..
and PBR is definitely helping out the KIDS>>>
I wish someone else would put out a publication like this and we would have something to compare it to...Right now....PBR is the best thing a kid could ask for... unless the magazine is being used as an edge in recrutiment of players for summer team..
quote:Originally posted by It'sAllGood:
For those who are strong in their defense of PBR/MVP/Top Tier, how many of you are connected to any of those entities?
<snip>
Answer my questions and that's all I have to say about this.
Strong in my defense of PBR (couldn't care less about TT or MVP). Connected - as a subscriber. That's it for me! Which, BTW, brings me to another point on the "known fact" issue. These local papers who quote PBR, do they subscribe? Because if they do, and the envelope it comes in didn't clue them in to the relationship... well, good thing they're in sports, because investigative reporting is obviously beyond them! ;-)
mythreesons is right, of course - "known fact" by some, not all. Maybe "matter of public record" is a better phrase for it.
What local papers are you talking about
It's...2 posts and you're an expert on everything. And you go so far as to allege someone is a "shill"?
Really simple...Maybe too simple for you to understand?
Moms and dads all love their sons and all believe that their sons, generally, are better than anyone else in the world. I know. I have 5 songs and 2 daughters.
Seems like several here have personal agendas of some sort re the publication and the principal's relationship with some of the most competitive local travel teams.
My point: Don't ***** and moan because your son or daughter hasn't been recognized by someone...do something about it...you don't need anyone to do some things to help yourself, i.e., running and long toss...to help your speed and arm strength.
quote:Beentherein IL.....what the heck did your rambling comments about the old days have to do with the points made?
Really simple...Maybe too simple for you to understand?
Moms and dads all love their sons and all believe that their sons, generally, are better than anyone else in the world. I know. I have 5 songs and 2 daughters.
Seems like several here have personal agendas of some sort re the publication and the principal's relationship with some of the most competitive local travel teams.
My point: Don't ***** and moan because your son or daughter hasn't been recognized by someone...do something about it...you don't need anyone to do some things to help yourself, i.e., running and long toss...to help your speed and arm strength.
This has already been talked about 3 or 4 times.
At this point I think everyone knows who is who for better and for worse.
Sean is a nice guy and very interesting to talk to, so regardless of what has been said (right or wrong) I think it is fair to say there is no evil here.
At this point I think everyone knows who is who for better and for worse.
Sean is a nice guy and very interesting to talk to, so regardless of what has been said (right or wrong) I think it is fair to say there is no evil here.
Kids,
Please play nicely together or I will have to ask you to turn off your computers and go to your rooms for a timeout.
Please play nicely together or I will have to ask you to turn off your computers and go to your rooms for a timeout.
Bottom line it is GREAT for the kids of ILLINOIS!
nuff said on this said topic and said publication.
Well said!
when will the next said publication present its next issue?
Sweaty look what you started.I thought we were told to end this topic.
Sweaty,I think you work for PBR. look at the publicity you have done for them, I think I am going to buy my first copy. 
Pony mom:
I would like to hire him, but his agent is Scott Boras!
I would like to hire him, but his agent is Scott Boras!
sorry to respond so long after the topic has been closed,but i just got my PBR and I have to say I agree with sweaty and ltcatcherdad.I have watched many of these kids play over the years and its kindof disheartning to see the favortism and on the flip side the players-good players- that simply get overlooked.I do understand thats the way the world works [who knows who] but it sickens me at this level.PBR the coaches DO NOT always give a fair evaluation of players.I also know parents who inform their local news papers incorrectly to get their own children recognition,please ,be real, and at least have the courage to admit that there is bias,and some of these kids are there just because they are favored for other reasons outside of their "talent".Whos gonna hold them up when they have to hold their own?It does a disservice to all,unless its legitimate.I am not saying most dont deserve it but some you have listed are so obviously political.... 
where can i find this magazine?
Every evalution of talent is subjective, therefore open to debate. The major league all-star team has disgreements so how can someone covering Illinois high school not have differences of opinion? That doesn't make it wrong, political, or corrupt. It is the best SD can do.
You can't do something like this objectively. If you used averages, RBI's and homers, ERA's, the competition is sifferent so you could still have differences using "objective" measures like stats.
The magazine is what it is. Buy it, talk about it, or don't. It is up to you.
You can't do something like this objectively. If you used averages, RBI's and homers, ERA's, the competition is sifferent so you could still have differences using "objective" measures like stats.
The magazine is what it is. Buy it, talk about it, or don't. It is up to you.
Thanks bballdad1954,but I think you missed my point. I clearly understand the way the magazine is put together and it can be subjective ,we could talk about that all day.That doesnt change the fact that there are kids who get overlooked,for reasons other than their ability to play the game.I think we are all mature,and realistic enough[maybe not bold enough] to admit that politics ,favortism, however you want to word it plays a role in the selections and I personally think it stinks.Your right about one thing -the magazine "is what it is" and I dont have to buy it..... and I never will again.
P3cubfan
I would look in a in a few garbage cans it sounds like some people dont want theirs.Cant beat a free bee
I would look in a in a few garbage cans it sounds like some people dont want theirs.Cant beat a free bee
i bought one just because of this website, I can only say GREAT JOB PBR!
Sikofthepolitics:
Players, as you put it, get "overlooked" not because of politics, but because I don't know of the player, and other baseball people (i.e. their HS coach, scouts,) don't say anything about them. Most high school coaches promote their players - they want them to play at the next level. Judging by your posting, it appears your situation is different.
Please, by all means, I'd love to get information about your son. Email me at duncan@prepbaseballreport.com.
I've never left a kid out because of politics. I've had parents MF me up and down, and I still rank their kids well. Heck, Sweaty's kid is going to be PBR all-stater. If a player is good, a player is good.
There are 10,000 players in the state. I'd like to know them all.
sd
Players, as you put it, get "overlooked" not because of politics, but because I don't know of the player, and other baseball people (i.e. their HS coach, scouts,) don't say anything about them. Most high school coaches promote their players - they want them to play at the next level. Judging by your posting, it appears your situation is different.
Please, by all means, I'd love to get information about your son. Email me at duncan@prepbaseballreport.com.
I've never left a kid out because of politics. I've had parents MF me up and down, and I still rank their kids well. Heck, Sweaty's kid is going to be PBR all-stater. If a player is good, a player is good.
There are 10,000 players in the state. I'd like to know them all.
sd
I will be glad to give you the specifics of my opinion once the season is over.I dont want my son to pay the price for it,and by the way its not my son I am refering to,its one of his coaches and some other players that not only got overlooked ,they got pushed down.My son is in your magazine,I am really looking for truth not promting my own child,he'll make it by working hard....on his own.
quote:Originally posted by PBR:
There are 10,000 players in the state.
sd
That's all? Geez, you could manage that. Are you still wasting time sleeping and showering? Toss the family in an RV and get to work!
I didn't miss the point. Just because YOU think they are good enough to be in the magazine doesn't make it so. YOUR opinion is as subjective as the author of the magazine. Maybe you overestimate hte talent of those players. When you see a kid every day, and you like him, you tend to remember the good plays more than the bad.
[QUOTE from Sikofthepolitics; there are kids who get overlooked,for reasons other than their ability to play the game.I think we are all mature,and realistic enough[maybe not bold enough] to admit that politics ,favortism, however you want to word it plays a role in the selections and I personally think it stinks.
QUOTE]
Sean Duncan, You're a better man than I. While I presume that you're raking in millions of dollars by publishing the PBR, you maintain your professionalism and a sense of humor in the face of personal attacks to your credibility, motives and sense of fair play. I love a great mystery just like most of us. I'm a big fan of "24" and "Prison Break" but enough of this consipiracy BS. It just doens't hold water as has been show by SD time after time.
Sick, I hope you hold all of the media that you either watch, read or wipe with to the same standards that you're holding a locally produced magazine which happens to cover HS baseball in Illinois. FYI, my son went DOWN in the most recent issue and, so *******' what? Taken in its entirety I think that the PBR is the best thing that's happened to HS baseball around here in a very long time.
QUOTE]
Sean Duncan, You're a better man than I. While I presume that you're raking in millions of dollars by publishing the PBR, you maintain your professionalism and a sense of humor in the face of personal attacks to your credibility, motives and sense of fair play. I love a great mystery just like most of us. I'm a big fan of "24" and "Prison Break" but enough of this consipiracy BS. It just doens't hold water as has been show by SD time after time.
Sick, I hope you hold all of the media that you either watch, read or wipe with to the same standards that you're holding a locally produced magazine which happens to cover HS baseball in Illinois. FYI, my son went DOWN in the most recent issue and, so *******' what? Taken in its entirety I think that the PBR is the best thing that's happened to HS baseball around here in a very long time.
Rosy..I said my son was in the magazine not that he was down please reread my post.I said there are coaches that push down other players and it was not my son.I also said I was looking for truth as a whole.I guess I hit a nerve I am not sure why? I was responding to bballdad not Sean.It wasnt a personal attack its just what I see throughout the "system" and I just think it stinks for the other kids who are just as good {no personal gain here} and dont have a conection or coaches support.Sorry if you are so bothered by someones opinion if it doesnt agree with yours I guess thats another point...not everyone blindly accepts the popular opinion.I did also say ,[if you need to go back please do] that most of the kids on there deserved it ,SOME,were clearly there for other reasons.
Sean,
I haven't seen the magazine and now I want to see it because of this thread.
I applaud you for doing something for Illinois kids. I remember the COMPLAINERS AND MOANERS when I suggested that we do a competitive TEAM ILLINOIS back in 2001 and 2002.
Some people ***** and moan when its too hot. The same people that ***** and moan when it is too cold. Some people ***** and moan just to ***** and moan.
Congrats, Sean. (And, no, everyone, he didn't pay me to write this.)
I haven't seen the magazine and now I want to see it because of this thread.
I applaud you for doing something for Illinois kids. I remember the COMPLAINERS AND MOANERS when I suggested that we do a competitive TEAM ILLINOIS back in 2001 and 2002.
Some people ***** and moan when its too hot. The same people that ***** and moan when it is too cold. Some people ***** and moan just to ***** and moan.
Congrats, Sean. (And, no, everyone, he didn't pay me to write this.)