preteen travel as a precursor to high school ball

I think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I could cite dozens of examples to the contrary just in my own little world. And more dozens of examples of early-bloomers who did and never panned out past age 13/14.

Generally speaking the facts would probably show he was right....I would agree the pre teen years are not as important...but once you get to the bigger fields it certainly helps....I always wonder about the younger player whose parents could not afford travel ball. Sometimes the travel ball players are just the best players who can afford it....I agree in the end talent will always win out but the experience of travel ball will help that talent materialize.

If you are not playing Travel Ball where can you find any game or any team after the spring season ends? Those that play travel ball generally play year round except for a break between Thanksgiving and (in Florida) mid February. Usually during this time players are conditioning or showcasing (once they are in HS).

The players that play travel ball will play at least twice as many games as someone who does not. The additional games should translate into tangible differences in understanding how a game is played and the skills associated with the game.

I sure would not worry about it though for a kid around 10 or 11. I think that is a bit "over the top". We started when my guy turned 12 on a 13U team.

Travel ball is what opened my sons eyes about baseball. Coming from a small town he was a good player.Going to our first tournament with travlel ball We all realized he was a little fish in a big pond. It made him really begin to relize what it would take to compete at a high level. I do not think he would of if he had stayed and played LL.He made his move at 13.Now others who live in rich baseball areas , might have a much stronger LL.

I didn't play summer travel until the summer before high school. I was still the most talented player coming into high school, but in a small town like this the most negative effect of not playing travel ball was the "political" ramifications, parents didn't like that a kid who didn't play on their team would dare play for the high school. Talent did prevail though.

JPontiac


two questions:

Who deemed you the mosted talented player at that time?
Who determined political ramifications?

So much depends on genes, but all things being equal the travel kid makes the team and the rec player doesn't. That's how it played out here anyway. But I'm sure if you have a rec player with some God given talent he could play rec ball for two years (13 and 14) and still make the high school team.
That being said, around here there are many more kids playing rec than travel, but there are way more kids playing high school who played travel in pre-high school. I think travel can be way over done, but around here the kids in rec pretty much don't take baseball serious enough. But I have seen some rec teams from other area's who work harder than many travel teams, depends on how hard you work at it.

I think whenever your kid sees better competition it either makes him and the parents realize that he is not as good as he thinks he is and or he can play to a higher level of competition than the rec leagues offer. I also believe it allows the kid to hone his skills along the way ,even if he plays on the worst select traveling baseball team, it still allows him to the see the best the area offers in pitching, hitting, etc. I think the real reason for pre teen travel teams is to frankly get them better prepared for high school ball. However, to say a kid only playing rec ball won't make his high school team is not necessarily true either. I do know the finalists in my son's tryout this past week indicates that 6 out of the 7 finalists have played in a traveling select league for several years. The starting number of kids trying out was 36 and I know many of them played only rec ball.

quote:

I would say 90% of those Rec league kids won't make our big 5A HS team.

If the preteen travel players were the high school players, did travel make the player or were the most talented players choosing to play preteen travel?

quote:

Generally speaking the facts would probably show he was right....I would agree the pre teen years are not as important

He's insisting travel is required in the preteen years.

No it probably it wasn't the travel itself, but the exposure of seeing players of the same age in different areas (states) far away that you don't see with a rec league within 10 miles of your house.

my son played aau/travel or whatever you call it. from 13 to 15. he was pretty good when he started, better when he was done.

now the reason to me wasn't the number of games he played, but the number of practices he had that made him better. they had baseball 6 day's a week, games only sat,sun.

you can play 60 games and average 3 ab a game and with 180 ab, you aren't going to just get better. same thing with defense. i know they practice a lot too. but you see my point.

if you took every 13 year old in your rec program and had good practice 5 times a week, i think they would all be better. now i'm not saying they would all be GOOD, some would but they would be better. it doesn't cost much either. and the upside they could all make a high school team better. who wouldn't like that?

It is me that is arguing with RJM. I am too tired to reargue the point. If anyone is interested, here is the link. I am Danbam. I believe you will be able to guess who RJM is.

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball...ssage.cfm?id=2128878

Bla... Bla... Bla... travel ball this.... travel ball that....

Does not matter where they played, by the time they are Jr's and Sr's the best athletes are on the field.

Don't get me wrong some competitive ball is good in the 13-14 age range, below this you are wasting your time and money. Have them play multiple sports and get good coaching, particularly for pitching and hitting.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
JPontiac


two questions:

Who deemed you the mosted talented palyer at that time?
Who determined political ramifications?

Among those who had seen both my peers and I (and weren't parents), it was obvious.

The parents of travel ball players that manipulated the coaching staff determined the political ramifications.

If you take two 9-year-old kids with the same talent level, and one starts to play travel baseball with games in the spring, summer and fall, tournaments, multiple practices, maybe professional coaching, and the other sticks to playing one rec game a week in the spring and fall and being coached by his classmate's dad... by the time they reach high school, the travel ball player will be the better player.

LHPMom

LHPMom,

Please define "professional coaching."

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
If you take two 9-year-old kids with the same talent level, and one starts to play travel baseball with games in the spring, summer and fall, tournaments, multiple practices, maybe professional coaching, and the other sticks to playing one rec game a week in the spring and fall and being coached by his classmate's dad... by the time they reach high school, the travel ball player will be the better player.

LHPMom

To stay on topic, what if the second player starts playing travel and gets all the same training starting at 13U.

If the talent is equal, the kid that started at 9U will be better. Easily.

"Professional coaching" -- a former minor leaguer or scout coaches the team instead of a player's father. Many of the local travel teams in this area do this.

As far as a kid starting travel at U13... is this kid even going to be able to make the team, competing against kids who've been playing travel for a while? I only know what it's like where I live, obviously... and almost all of the travel kids start playing travel around 8 or 9. While I know of kids who were the weakest players on their travel teams at 9 becoming stars at 13, I've never heard of any kid who started playing travel at U13... I'm sure they're out there, though...

My son was U14 in the 8th grade (last year); he had a friend also in 8th grade who was baseball aged U13. His friend's father realized that half the kids his son would be playing with and against were a baseball year older, so my husband and I got him on our team, which had lost several players to high school ball. This kid was a stand-out at U13 and had played travel since U8. He did not have a single hit the spring season and barely touched the ball in the summer.

I can't imagine a kid being successful playing travel for the first time at U13, unless he came from a very strong rec program that played on the same sized diamond...


LHPMom

ONE WORD ---- TALENT!!

It's not HOW you got there ---- it's WHERE you are.

We could start a whole new thread about what is best for a player but there are so many variables there can be no cookie cutter approach.

My son started playing baseball at 7. Played one fall travel season at 11u, started with travel at 12u. Played two seasons at 12u (due to the age change), 13 & 14 travel. As a freshman, he just made Varsity as a starting pitcher and JV as a starting short stop. I really don't think you need to start as early as 8 or 9. We are in a highly competitive area as well.

I agree there is definately talent to be considered. However, the sooner you can break bad habits ie. better mechanics in pitching, and a better approach in hitting it becomes muscle memory. It is easier for the kid to retain this information and become part of him when he is younger and more receptive to better training, better coaching and more opportunities through repeating (more games, more experience) and possibly less injuries because of better mechanics . The problem is, some parents allow their kid to become disinterested in the sport when they are young by having their son playing 85 games through the summer when he is 10 years old. I think that is overboard. I believe there has to be a happy in between, depending on the desires of the child. Let your son lead and no forcing from the parents. EAch kid is different. Keep baseball fun!

In my area we don't even have the crazy 8-9U teams. There are a few 11U teams but most start at 12U and many don't start till 13U.

My son played on a 12U team that was formed only to play in Cooperstown. We were made up primarily of kids who were Cal Ripken All-Stars for their leagues (we have 4 in our city). We had some practices together (after All-stars were done) to learn the 70' rules (leading/pick-offs) and two scrimmages before heading out to Cooperstown. We ended up a 7 seed going undefeated in pool play beating travel teams from California (Star Makers), Nevada etc.. So a bunch of rec kids from NH at 12 can beat a bunch of travel players from baseball hotbeds who have been playing travel ball for years and probably 50 more games together then our group. Now try that same situation at 14U and we'd probably have got killed!

I am in the group that believes that kids playing travel as 8's 9's and 10's is pretty much a waste of money but that starting on the big field as a 13U it does start to really help. I do have to preface that by stating that our rec leagues are quite strong still and that 99% of the best players play in our rec leagues through 12. We are far from a baseball hotbed too!

I think baseball is a sport where skill matters more than talent. A player needs talent to develop skill, but just one example -- a kid who throws the baseball 10mph harder than anyone else but still can't throw strikes will not be pitching.

Bballman, it sounds like your son got in quite a bit of travel baseball before high school! Did he play U14 last school year, or fall 2008?

My point in this thread is that, for a kid who'll be going to a competitive baseball high school, the best chance for him making the team would be to start playing travel baseball as soon as possible.

On a related note, I'm curious to talk about what people think is the relationship between the local travel baseball teams and the strength of the high school in which those leagues feed into. And, for a particular baseball league, do people feel there's some kind of formula to determine how many travel teams the league should offer, based on how many total players there are in the age group?

LHPMom

quote:

If the talent is equal, the kid that started at 9U will be better. Easily.

Depends. Similar to what redsox said, 2B played in a very competitive rec program from age 6-10. That, plus all-stars, plus a college camp in the summer wherever I was working at the time, was enough. 25 games or so instead of 100. We were lucky to have good coaching as well. Heck, we didn't even know about travel ball until we moved to Florida when he was 11. He had overuse issues as it was when he started playing travel ball on the 12U team. I think they might have been worse had he started a travel schedule earlier. Anyway, after playing rec in Georgia, and after one nightmarish fall rec season in Florida (all the good players already played travel), he moved on to travel, became a starter, and hasn't looked back.

I think it depends on the players and the programs.

There is an interesting, sobering, and potentially disturbing presentation of this topic in Malcom Gladwell's new book Outliers (author of The Tipping Point and Blink.

The book opens with a look at Canadian amateur/junior hockey. To paraphrase, when you look at the rosters of the top teams in junior hockey (18U level of play), well over 75% of the kids have birthdates in the months of Jan-Feb-Mar.

Logic would dictate that Talent does not have a birthdate. That the distribution in talented players being born would be roughly equal across the year. So how do you explain such a disproportionate weighting in birth dates at the upper levels of the game?

The age cut-off date for Canadian youth hockey is Jan. 1. At the ageas of 8 & 9, when they begin to pick All-Star teams; there is a huge developmental gap between kids who born in the 1st quarter of the eyar, and those born in the 4th quarter.

All-Star (select) teams become heavily weighted to the kids who are more physically mature (older). These kids then get more & better coaching, and play more games. As a result, this tends to open the gap between them and their peers.

This makes the kids all the more likely to repeat as All-Stars the following year. As the cycle repeats itself, some kids plateau, some leave the game, others break through; but when you get 10 years out and find that 75%+ of the roster is weighted to brithdates in the first 3 months of the year, you have to consider that a factor above and beyond Talent contributed to the outcome.

It is a fascinating read. All 3 of his books have a lot to offer if your have not picked them up before.

Personally, I believe that what elevates kids to the top is a blend of talent, timing and training.

My son was always the youngest in his leagues, with a late July birthday, when the baseball cut-off age was Aug 1. He made the All-Star teams in part because we live in a more rural area (fewer kids); he does have some talent; and he practiced really hard ... in part because he was the young kid, and the others were ahead of him physically.

He started playing travel ball when he was a 12U, for a team we pulled together. 1/2 out team were older kids; half our team were younger. When Baseball changed the cut-uff date in 2006, my son was 12 again in baseball age, as was 1/2 of our team.

My son was the only one of the younger group who chose to go forward. He started playing for a 13U full-time travel team. The rest played 12U LL again, and for a 12U travel team.

At age 11 & 12, most of these boys were as good as my son, or better. Many were more athletic, and their skills were equal or better. Today, these boys are all battling for spots on the local HS JV team, and my son is competing for a spot on the Varsity team at one of the top private schools in the region.

This past fall, I had the opportunity to watch many of these other boys play in a 15/16U game, just down the road from where my son was playing in a 17/18U game. I was stunned by the difference in skill levels.

My conclusion: Talent, Timing & Training; all contribute to success.

We could start a whole new thread about what is best for a player but there are so many variables there can be no cookie cutter approach.

I agree with this. It depends on where you live, what sort of competition you play, the type of development that's available at your rec league and your high school, the position you play (some need extra instruction) the ability of the coach to develop the players, etc. It also depends on the kid and their level of commitment, and the financial ability of the parents to spend the extra money on year round baseball, travel, and instruction.

Not every travel team is worth being a part of, and not every HS team fields the best players or develops them to their full potential. Parents have got to be aware of what the game requires of athletes as the move up and be able to evaluate what's going to be needed to make their kid the best he can be. In our case, it was very necessary to add travel ball to the equation if our son was going to continue to develop. It wasn't going to happen in the rec leagues available to us and it wasn't going to happen at his high school. (New coach this year, and had he been there all of HS it might be a different story.) Our son was bored and frustrated playing rec league, and the league was controlled by fathers who were there to develop and promote their own kids-- not others.

Not a clear-cut answer or path for everyone. Absolutely the best course for our son. One boy on our varsity team had good raw skills, but his mother didn't "believe in" travel ball. Frustrated and close to calling it quits in his sophomore year, I convinced her to try out for a summer team. He did, made it, and has rocketed forward during his last two years of high school. It wasn't the HS coach or competition, believe me. It was the summer competition and instruction and exposure... He'll be playing in college next year.

I forgot to add, I really don't think it matters as much to be on a travel team before age 11 or so. When the real pitching begins, good instruction begins to matter for pitchers, batters, and catchers. Seeing lots of pitching matters. Playing a lot matters. Before that, I think the returns gained on the investment are more minimal.

Southpaw, sounds like we have a parallel story to yours!

quote:

Bballman, it sounds like your son got in quite a bit of travel baseball before high school! Did he play U14 last school year, or fall 2008?

Yes, really 4 years. 12 twice, 13 and 14. Just played rec ball before that. We played a pretty competitive schedule as well so he got plenty of competition prior to HS.

He did play 14u this past spring (2008), then played on a 15u team in the fall. He is currently a freshman in HS.

Around here, there are a TON of travel teams. We live near East Cobb. They probably have about 7-8 teams for each age group. The top team is usually extremely good, next 2-3 are very good, below that you see teams vary from mid level AAA to average AA teams. Other than that, there are teams from all over. Every town has at least one team and many have multiple. The talent really gets watered down. Rec programs are really not that good, but personally I think 8-9 years old are too young. Puts a lot of pitches on the younger arms.

If I had to do it again, I would still start no earlier than 11 at travel. i will say that the experience my son has had playing travel since 12 has been a huge help as a pitcher. He has pitched against the best competition the region has to offer. I have had the parents of a number of seniors as well as the Varsity coach come to tell me that he is obviously a pitcher and seems to be very baseball smart. If he had been playing rec only all these years, he would have been able to just throw fastballs down the middle and blow people away. By playing the best competition around, he has really had to learn to pitch, not just throw.

I think travel ball helps players step their game up, just don't think you need to start that early.

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
I think baseball is a sport where skill matters more than talent.
LHPMom

LHPMom you obviously have not seen highly talented players develop in HS because this is so far from the truth it is not even funny.

As others have pointed out there are too many variables to say which path is best, but in my opinion kids should play multiple sports, play all-stars, get some experience in travel ball at 13-14U and they will be fine. If a kid is a borderline player it may help them early in HS but once all kids start practicing daily and playing 3x per week the athletes quickly catch up with little Johnny travel ball.

When you add in the quality of life, giving kids a broad life experience, overuse issues with pitchers and costs it is quite clear which way to go.

If you ask a youngster why he chose to make a play unassisted versus the conventional route, he belongs on a travel team.

In our area, each community has recball, same as everywhere. They also have a league which expands into 5 counties which includes around 30 communities who each put together their best available talented kids(tryouts)starting at 8u.

These teams have the kids who show indications of natural ability, athleticism, and enjoyment of the game.

When you see these kids make plays, play the game with good fundamentals, then you can conclude they are learning properly.

That doesn't mean a kid has to participate starting that early for HS ball. Being the big fish for a few early years works also and builds confidence.

Anyway, young players who dominate used to just play up a few years in age if recball was the only venue.

More important then the level of team your kid plays on is who he plays for.

Good coaching, whether its in the rec league or travel team makes a huge differnce in future success.

Travel ball does not always mean better coaching.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
As others have pointed out there are too many variables to say which path is best, but in my opinion kids should play multiple sports, play all-stars, get some experience in travel ball at 13-14U and they will be fine. If a kid is a borderline player it may help them early in HS but once all kids start practicing daily and playing 3x per week the athletes quickly catch up with little Johnny travel ball.

When you add in the quality of life, giving kids a broad life experience, overuse issues with pitchers and costs it is quite clear which way to go.

The above quote sums up my beliefs.

Two of the top 3 players on my son's varsity baseball team are playing multiple high school sports and only played about a half season of travel ball in the 8th grade. While the rest of the team has been out on the baseball field for several months, these two kids will walk on the field this week, and will be the in the top 3 players within one or two weeks. It has happened for 2 years, and it will happen this year as well.

A player from our high school just made the Fresno State Bulldogs roster after going to a JC for two years. He never played travel ball and was never a full time starter for our high school team. He developed after high school.

As I have gone through this process of raising a kid that loves to play sports, I have come to realize how little the preteen years really mattered in the big picture.

I think baseball in California is probably different than baseball in Maryland. The local rec league that runs baseball in my area has the kids play 6 games in the fall and 8 games in the spring. This year's "opening day" is April 19th. They do not have a summer league.

LHPMom

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParent:
More important then the level of team your kid plays on is who he plays for.

Good coaching, whether its in the rec league or travel team makes a huge differnce in future success.

Travel ball does not always mean better coaching.

Well said, coaching makes all the difference. I took the time to watch several programs, travel and local and speak with some of the coaches prior to deciding where my son would play, no daddy coaches only out for their sons. I also included my sons thoughts on programs that he witnessed.

He broke into travel ball at 13 after 7 years of L.L. and was well behind the curve of what the other kids were doing. hard work got him caught up in no time.

For my son and his travel program practicing 5 days a week 2-3 hours at a time with quality instruction breaking down each possition of the game and focusing on conditioning first has made all the difference in his level of play and dedication to HARD WORK.

He is now a freshman and heading for his first tryouts in a few weeks. He is ready and his travel coaches have all said will be well deserving of playing more than just freshman ball. If he had stayed and played at the "rec" level for the last year and a half he would have developed, but I am sure, at a much slower pace and not learned nearly as much about himself or the game and I would have had to be more involved in teaching rather than watching, I am a much better watcher and proud of it.

My sophomore son has played travel ball since age nine. Part of the reason we took him out of rec ball was because we felt he would develop more if he played with and against better players and teams. Another reason is so that he would stay interested in the game because the game would challenge him. Remember the kids who can't throw a strike to save their life? Or hit the ball out the infield? I think a lot of kids give up the game due to being one of those kids or because the game seems "boring" as you stand in the outfield and never have a ball hit to you. I have a video of my son playing catcher at age 8 on a 9 year old kid pitch team. The ball is never pitched to to him. It is over his head by a lot, to the left, to the right. All you can hear is "clang" as it hits the backstop over and over again. This is why he started travel ball at age nine.

He then spent three years on a travel team that had a lot of success (good players and team chemistry) with very little coaching, then moved to a team with great coaching but not as much team success. I believe both have helped in his development. What we found was that as the kids aged, some continued to develop and some got stuck in the mud so to speak, partly because of inner drive and determination and partly because of natural ability.

Pre-teen travel was a great experience for him and if a player is ready for a higher level of baseball, no matter what age, I say go for it! You can always go back if it doesn't work out.

Clarification: Based on the responses I'm not sure several understand the question. I'm not asking if your son played preteen travel. I'm not asking how many high school kids played preteen travel. Preteen travel could have been by choice, rather than need. I'm asking if people think preteen travel on the 50/70 field is necessary to become a high school baseball player.

My son played some preteen travel in addition to Ripken or LL. At 9U and 10U it was extended play on top of Ripken into the summer. At 11U and 12U he played in a travel Sunday doubleheader league running concurrently with LL. It was to keep all-stars sharp for all-star play.

I don't believe the 50/70 preteen travel had anything to do with him playing high school ball. It was just more ball. What he did in travel from 13-15 on the full size field and playing up to 16U in the summer and 18U in the fall this past year helped him develop for high school ball.

The question is: Is preteen travel on the 50/70 field necessary to become a high school baseball field?

I don't think it's necessary that you put your son on a Travel Ball team as a "Pre Teen" to make the high school team, however, I think in our area it certainly helped. Looking at rosters that my son played on the past seven years in TB, over 90% of the kids are playing on their respective high school team...and about half of them (including my son) are playing Varsity. This group of boys are in the 2011 class and have been playing travel ball since the 10U season.

Was it because they played more ball throughout the year?...or, Maybe it was that the majority of the "All Star" kids in our area branched out by their 12U Rec Ball League Season to play TB? I personally think it was a combination of both. If the local competition stayed in Rec Ball, we would have chose to do the same for our son...but it didn't, so we chose the Travel route and I believe my son and the kids he played with are much better for it. Those are just my thoughts, other areas of the States may be a little different.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." **Rogers Hornsby**