The question is: Is preteen travel on the 50/70 field necessary to become a high school baseball field?
RJM.. my POV no it not necessary. Does it help, maybe but it is not necessary. I agree with you getting to a high level of comp on the big field helps but again I would not say it is necessary...there are kids that make it to a high school field that do not play any travel baseball...granted this might be rare and may also have to do with the caliber of the high school program.
Used to be that at 13 we went to the full size field--no in between field size teams
What if rec leagues are extremely low level and HS is very high level competition? Team USA guys, national travel, early college signings, that kind of thing. Would that effect the travel situation?
quote:The question is: Is preteen travel on the 50/70 field necessary to become a high school baseball field?
no
Playing the 50/70 field only gets the younger, 11-12u players competing in a real baseball game sooner, not the watered down L.L. games many play.
A quality player brought up with good coaching, proper attitude and baseball smarts with a desire to work hard will find his way onto any top team on the diamond that the game was ment to be played on, regardless of what field or what type of baseball played prior, L.L., rec, travel ect ect..
A quality player brought up with good coaching, proper attitude and baseball smarts with a desire to work hard will find his way onto any top team on the diamond that the game was ment to be played on, regardless of what field or what type of baseball played prior, L.L., rec, travel ect ect..
quote:we took him out of rec ball was because we felt he would develop more if he played with and against better players and teams. Another reason is so that he would stay interested in the game because the game would challenge him.
Goodeye, So it sounds as if you are saying travel ball IS a precursor to HS ball and therefor ALL kids should be pulled out of rec ball for the same reasons you mentioned if they want to play HS baseball? I think most parents pull their sons from rec ball because of their perceived talent. That is the same talent that hopefully will (or did) earn him a spot on the HS team. Before travel ball existed there was high school baseball --- obviously preteen travel was NOT a precursor to high school baseball back then. High school teams were picked because of their talent. So, what happened to change all this? Nothing! Here's what makes travel ball look SOOO important. The vast majority of talented pre-teen players' parents move their sons into travel baseball because they think their sons "should" play at a higher level. (I'm guilty)... This gives the false impression that travel baseball "made" these PLAYERS when if fact the players are what "made" those teams more competitive. I understand exactly what you're saying because I've been down that road and I moved my son from rec ball. My goal when my son was a preteen was to match his talent to the level of the game. At 11 he played on a 13u travel team not because it was a precursor to HS baseball but because his talent dictated that's where he should play. My son started as a freshman in HS because his talent dictated that he start -- not his previous team.
Here's what I think happens. Some envious parents of some younger players were watching from the sidelines and decided my son and other talented player's success was attributed to their 13u travel team. Believing this, there is an exodus from rec ball and they move their kid to a travel team. If one travel team isn't enough to accommodate the exodus, they just start another --- and another. When all the lime dust settles, the same talent that determined high school rosters in the early days will still be the deciding factor. This conversation we're having today will will be repeated over and over but the names of the teams will change. Next year the thread will be Preteen "elite team" as a precursor to high school ball ---- then the following year Preteen "highly elite team" as a precursor to high school ball ---- this will continue until we run out of gas money or idiotic adjectives.
Fungo
My son played under 20 total games of travel ball in his life, 16 & 17 years old, the rest was local little league and Legion, and he hasn't done bad for himself.
An exception to the "travel" rule....Maybe....
....IMHO, along with some talent, it was all about passion, dedication, and hard work. It was not who he played for, rather how bad he wanted it.
An exception to the "travel" rule....Maybe....
No...preteen travel ball makes no difference IMHO. As has been stated, there are too many variables to believe that an early start is all that important.
I've witnessed kids who were great on the mound, in the field, and at the plate on 50/70 fields (and below), be terrible on the 60'6"/90 fields. Shortstops who were tremendous on the smaller fields who couldn't make the throw to 1st, and batters who couldn't get the ball out of the bigger infields.
Pitchers who were deadly, and dominant, at 48'-54' who couldn't get the pitch to the plate at 60'6".
It remained that way last fall with the "incoming" freshman squad. The smaller, less athletic players just couldn't get it done; regardless how many years of competitive-league ball they had played. The bigger players (even the rec only players) who could handle the HS-sized field earned the playing time.
Now, the kids who played competitive or travel and were good on the HS-sized fields, were better than most of their rec-only counterparts last fall. I'm not sure even that advantage will play out over 4 seasons of HS ball and HS coaching. The JV coach's son played only rec throughout his youth. He's a stud according to the players I have spoken with. Granted, his dad was a MLB player and has 2 WS rings, which gives him genetics, but doesn't assure him a spot.
Travel or competitive ball once they reach the full-sized fields may help the incoming freshman gain valuable experience and play against tougher competition. However, even the best travel teams playing on the smaller fields doesn't necessarily mean the players will even see a HS field.
Again, there are too many variables...talent wins (in most cases) over experience...and it's often too early at 9-13 to know who will be the better players. JMHO
I've witnessed kids who were great on the mound, in the field, and at the plate on 50/70 fields (and below), be terrible on the 60'6"/90 fields. Shortstops who were tremendous on the smaller fields who couldn't make the throw to 1st, and batters who couldn't get the ball out of the bigger infields.
Pitchers who were deadly, and dominant, at 48'-54' who couldn't get the pitch to the plate at 60'6".
It remained that way last fall with the "incoming" freshman squad. The smaller, less athletic players just couldn't get it done; regardless how many years of competitive-league ball they had played. The bigger players (even the rec only players) who could handle the HS-sized field earned the playing time.
Now, the kids who played competitive or travel and were good on the HS-sized fields, were better than most of their rec-only counterparts last fall. I'm not sure even that advantage will play out over 4 seasons of HS ball and HS coaching. The JV coach's son played only rec throughout his youth. He's a stud according to the players I have spoken with. Granted, his dad was a MLB player and has 2 WS rings, which gives him genetics, but doesn't assure him a spot.
Travel or competitive ball once they reach the full-sized fields may help the incoming freshman gain valuable experience and play against tougher competition. However, even the best travel teams playing on the smaller fields doesn't necessarily mean the players will even see a HS field.
Again, there are too many variables...talent wins (in most cases) over experience...and it's often too early at 9-13 to know who will be the better players. JMHO
quote:No...preteen travel ball makes no difference IMHO. As has been stated, there are too many variables to believe that an early start is all that important.
Then nobody should talk about their kid getting 3 HR's and a triple because the outfielders were daydreaming about Wii out in Lallasville.
quote:The question is: Is preteen travel on the 50/70 field necessary to become a high school baseball field?
No.
My son never played any travel ball before he was 13. It was all rec, and all-stars
At 13, he was invited to play on a local travel team made up of top all-stars from a few surrounding towns. A number of them are or will be playing at the collegiate level, so he did play on a highly competitive travel team with good coaches that helped him and some other very good ball players make it at the high school level and beyond.
While you might be able to polish up a preteen players skills, you're really not sure what you're gonna get until they move on to the big field.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:quote:The question is: Is preteen travel on the 50/70 field necessary to become a high school baseball field?
No.
My son never played any travel ball before he was 13. It was all rec, and all-stars
At 13&14, he still played rec but was invited to play on a local travel team made up of top all-stars from a few surrounding towns in the fall after the summer all-star season. A number of them are or will be playing at the collegiate level, so he did play on a highly competitive travel team with good coaches that helped him and some other very good ball players make it at the high school level and beyond. They played together for a couple of seasons then they went on to play American Legion for their base schools while some of the real serious players showcased.
While a good travel program with coaches who teach and develop may be able to polish up a preteen players skills, you're really not sure what you're gonna get until they move on to the big field.
For what it's worth...
My son got involved in travel ball at age 8 since it would be a couple of years before his LL would let him pitch. He did OK on that U-10 team. He played that fall and the following season on the next iterations of that travel team. Since our LL didn't have fall ball, my guy was invited to play in a well organized PONY league and when we tired of renting we made sure to buy a home within that league's boundaries.
At 10 he played for a U-11 team that was pretty competitive, but maybe not the best. There turned out to be some talent on that team as evidenced by the 2007 MLB draft, a first round supplemental pick and a ninth rounder both signed. There were a few D-1 players as well.
The next season, at age 11, my son played with the PONY all-star traveling team (before they were officially selected AS). That was as much fun as ever and he was with many of his friends from school. I think it was at 12 he found his national travel team.
What's all this mean? Who knows? My guy had a mix of both travel and rec (although the AS rec was essentially a local travel team). He also had some talent and a lot of great instruction along the way.
Each situation will be different. Your actual mileage may vary.
My son got involved in travel ball at age 8 since it would be a couple of years before his LL would let him pitch. He did OK on that U-10 team. He played that fall and the following season on the next iterations of that travel team. Since our LL didn't have fall ball, my guy was invited to play in a well organized PONY league and when we tired of renting we made sure to buy a home within that league's boundaries.
At 10 he played for a U-11 team that was pretty competitive, but maybe not the best. There turned out to be some talent on that team as evidenced by the 2007 MLB draft, a first round supplemental pick and a ninth rounder both signed. There were a few D-1 players as well.
The next season, at age 11, my son played with the PONY all-star traveling team (before they were officially selected AS). That was as much fun as ever and he was with many of his friends from school. I think it was at 12 he found his national travel team.
What's all this mean? Who knows? My guy had a mix of both travel and rec (although the AS rec was essentially a local travel team). He also had some talent and a lot of great instruction along the way.
Each situation will be different. Your actual mileage may vary.
quote:Then nobody should talk about their kid getting 3 HR's and a triple because the outfielders were daydreaming about Wii out in Lallasville.
Exactly...<grin>. One of 27's good friends and current teammates hit an "in-the-park homer" off him when they were playing 10U rec ball. He is now 6'1" and 250lbs. He was a similar (though smaller) sized kid at 10. Between the left-fielder, center-fielder, 3rd-baseman, and shortstop throwing the ball around...or booting it...or throwing it into the dirt...a routine grounder past 3rd...and the slowest baserunner imaginable...made for one of the funniest "home-runs" I have ever seen. By the time 27's buddy lumbered into home, 27 couldn't see because of the steam that was boiling out of his ears; and I couldn't see for the tears of laughter in my eyes
. 27 swore off rec ball after that season.However, 27's buddy still doesn't call it a home-run. He calls it a "rec-run".
RJM,
Your direct quote from another thread.
"My son's 9U and 10U travel teams were from his Ripken league. We saw it as extended play rather than building to something bigger. At eleven and twelve his LL all-stars teams would have done the same had they not competed into August. "
If this isn't travel then what is? You preach that pre teen travel is a waste of time for everyone on multiple boards but you did the same thing for your son. Whether you go across town or across the country it is travel. When a group of parents put a team together to play outside of rec to get more games in and better competition it is travel. How do think travel started? It doesn't matter what you call it. It was 10-11U travel.
I have no idea why you are so against it when you did the same thing for your son.
Your direct quote from another thread.
"My son's 9U and 10U travel teams were from his Ripken league. We saw it as extended play rather than building to something bigger. At eleven and twelve his LL all-stars teams would have done the same had they not competed into August. "
If this isn't travel then what is? You preach that pre teen travel is a waste of time for everyone on multiple boards but you did the same thing for your son. Whether you go across town or across the country it is travel. When a group of parents put a team together to play outside of rec to get more games in and better competition it is travel. How do think travel started? It doesn't matter what you call it. It was 10-11U travel.
I have no idea why you are so against it when you did the same thing for your son.
I know for a fact that our Freshman team was loaded with travel players. However, some did play travel and did not make the team. The distinguishing factor was the basic fundamentals of hitting (stance, swing, etc), good pitching mechanics (if he pitches) and decent fielding ability.
As the season goes on, and into the summer, he will be watched by the Sophomore coach for these same fundamentals. I am sure the frosh & soph coach talk.
You immediately can see on the playing field, who has baseball talent, who can swing properly, who is baseball savvy, clutch..etc
If you can develop proper mechanics off a travel team, you can impress and make the team. Don't ever give up!
It is unfortunate that kids who may not be able to afford this travel team luxury get looked over in all sports.
As the season goes on, and into the summer, he will be watched by the Sophomore coach for these same fundamentals. I am sure the frosh & soph coach talk.
You immediately can see on the playing field, who has baseball talent, who can swing properly, who is baseball savvy, clutch..etc
If you can develop proper mechanics off a travel team, you can impress and make the team. Don't ever give up!
It is unfortunate that kids who may not be able to afford this travel team luxury get looked over in all sports.
Here's the mistake you made. The debate is you insisting travel ball is necessary to make the high school team. I said it's not necessary. I said it has no impact on playing high school ball. I never thought any of the rec all-stars travel ball my son played from 9-12 would have any bearing on making the high school team. I have always said success on a small field is not a look into the future of a high school player. I've said it doesn't matter is a kid plays LL or open bases in his preteen years. The LL'ers catch up quickly when they hit the 60/90. I've said the journey really starts on the 60/90 at 13U, where I believe in travel if the local rec programs are weak (ours are terrible). I've also said by high school it's about talent, not where a kid played when he was little and prepubescent.quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
RJM,
Your direct quote from another thread.
"My son's 9U and 10U travel teams were from his Ripken league. We saw it as extended play rather than building to something bigger. At eleven and twelve his LL all-stars teams would have done the same had they not competed into August. "
If this isn't travel then what is? You preach that pre teen travel is a waste of time for everyone on multiple boards but you did the same thing for your son. Whether you go across town or across the country it is travel. When a group of parents put a team together to play outside of rec to get more games in and better competition it is travel. How do think travel started? It doesn't matter what you call it. It was 10-11U travel.
I have no idea why you are so against it when you did the same thing for your son.
At nine and ten after the Ripken season my son played in local LL or Ripken based tournaments. It added 25 games to the summer. It was just more baseball, not training for high school. At eleven and twelve he played in a 16 game USSSA AA Sunday doubleheader league with a bunch of prospective all-stars in preparation for all-stars. Preparing for LL all-stars is hardly preparation for high school.
To be honest, when my son first played youth sports, demonstrated athletic ability, agility and a passion for baseball I figured he would play high school ball if he continued to love the game. Why? Genetics and innate ability. He's the son of two college athletes. Any further than high school will depend on a lot of desire, continued passion for the game and tremendous work ethic.
I agree when the travel team is 13U and up playing on a 60/90 field. However a lot of kids who make the freshman team will never see a day on varsity. But the question was, is it necessary to play preteen 50/70 travel to make the high school (varsity) team?quote:If you can develop proper mechanics off a travel team, you can impress and make the team.
It's not necessary for all kids but gives you a head start. It's not "necessary" to play travel at 13, or 14, or 15... Some kids have played no travel baseball before 16 or 17 and still made it to the majors.
If you want to play 18 games a year for the local rec league, that's your choice. Lots of kids do that, and very few of those kids play high school ball. If both of your parents were college athletes, you might not have to play any basball until your freshman year and still make the team. If neither of your parents were athletes (my kids) then you might have to work a little harder to make sure that you get to play in high school while the other guy (rec player)goes home. In my older sons case, not a single kid who only played rec from 12u up played varsity. Can it be done? Of course! BJ could've waited until he was 16 to pick up a bat and played high school ball...
It's not necessary to get more than a 4rth grade education to become a very successful (rich) man. It's been done. But your chances of success increase with more education.
If you want to play 18 games a year for the local rec league, that's your choice. Lots of kids do that, and very few of those kids play high school ball. If both of your parents were college athletes, you might not have to play any basball until your freshman year and still make the team. If neither of your parents were athletes (my kids) then you might have to work a little harder to make sure that you get to play in high school while the other guy (rec player)goes home. In my older sons case, not a single kid who only played rec from 12u up played varsity. Can it be done? Of course! BJ could've waited until he was 16 to pick up a bat and played high school ball...
It's not necessary to get more than a 4rth grade education to become a very successful (rich) man. It's been done. But your chances of success increase with more education.
Fungo,
Atta babe...but you know you're kicking a dead horse.
When I started college (same place as your son) I quickly saw players that just amazed me (if I'm right your son played for one of them in college)and people thought I was a stud in HS (they were clueless). I remember sitting beside Coach Nix on the bench during one practice and saying it looks like I just went from a utility player to a bullpen catcher. To his credit, he wasn't cruel enough to agree with me and at even laughed when I asked if I could at least keep my jersey number. Just say I quickly became aware of my limitations on the field that year.
Travel ball is fun and all that but I firmly believe I could go out to any s****r field around Atlanta and find a Latin kid that I can teach to play SS just as well as 90% of the HS SS I have seen. Experience and mechanics are great but give me talent everyday of the week; my mechanics were good but the some of the real talented guys could do it wrong and still make you look silly.
Tell your son to keep the faith in his alma mater; it isn't the first time we've done something dumb in our football program. I do like the new baseball head coach however.
Atta babe...but you know you're kicking a dead horse.
When I started college (same place as your son) I quickly saw players that just amazed me (if I'm right your son played for one of them in college)and people thought I was a stud in HS (they were clueless). I remember sitting beside Coach Nix on the bench during one practice and saying it looks like I just went from a utility player to a bullpen catcher. To his credit, he wasn't cruel enough to agree with me and at even laughed when I asked if I could at least keep my jersey number. Just say I quickly became aware of my limitations on the field that year.
Travel ball is fun and all that but I firmly believe I could go out to any s****r field around Atlanta and find a Latin kid that I can teach to play SS just as well as 90% of the HS SS I have seen. Experience and mechanics are great but give me talent everyday of the week; my mechanics were good but the some of the real talented guys could do it wrong and still make you look silly.
Tell your son to keep the faith in his alma mater; it isn't the first time we've done something dumb in our football program. I do like the new baseball head coach however.
quote:Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
In my older sons case, not a single kid who only played rec from 12u up played varsity.
My sons Varsity team this year is almost exactly opposite. From on of my previous posts on the subject:
1 Pitcher: never played TB (Sr D2/3 prospect)
2 Pitcher: never played TB (Sr – will go JC due to injury last year)
Catch: Played some local TB (Jr D1/D2 prospect)
1st: never played TB – (Sr D1/D2 prospect has a number of programs following him in his Sr season)
2nd – never played TB (Sr - D1/D2 will go to JC because of grades)
SS – never played TB (Soph - stud major D1 prospect)
3rd – never played TB (Soph)
LF – Soph played some TB at 13 will be number 3 pitcher maybe number 2. D1 prospect
CF- never played TB (Sr already “signed” with top 25 D1 consistently the best athlete on the field)
RF – never played TB
I think Fungo summarized it perfectly. Some travel ball kids play HS ball because they are athletes and not the other way around. I think as LHPmom posted it also depends on how competitive your league is. Leagues out here play 25 games and then go into all stars that play through July. They also have fall ball programs so the league all-stars are getting in 35-50 games a year.
Many of the top high school programs in SoCal(public) have a strong local league with a strong "baseball community" approach.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
[QUOTE]But the question was, is it necessary to play preteen 50/70 travel to make the high school (varsity) team?
There are many different levels of high school baseball- teams from large schools in big cities to schools that can barely field a team due to a small number of boys in the school. There are too many variables to make this a strictly yes/no question without any details on the particular high school team. As shown from all of the answers, it happens both ways.
In my son's case, all 16 players played travel ball before making the high school freshman team last year. I do not know the details on every player and when they started travel. I do know that most of the starters did play preteen travel. Some of these boys will make the varsity team and some will be cut before their senior year. I can report back in two years and let you know if any non preteen travel players made our high school varsity team.
I think the necessary thing was to find the best coaching we could for our son and teammates with similar skills in the preteen years. Then, play a challenging schedule so that the boys face some good pitching and get some good fielding opportunities. It didn't matter if they traveled 2 miles or 2000 miles.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:quote:we took him out of rec ball was because we felt he would develop more if he played with and against better players and teams. Another reason is so that he would stay interested in the game because the game would challenge him.
Goodeye, So it sounds as if you are saying travel ball IS a precursor to HS ball and therefor ALL kids should be pulled out of rec ball for the same reasons you mentioned if they want to play HS baseball?
Fungo
Fungo,
I was relating his story. Not trying to say that is the story for every player or the road every player should travel if he wants to play high school ball. For him, yes, travel ball was a precursor to HS ball. But it was the quality of his teammates and then later on the good coaching that have helped him make his high school team.
Whatever is accomplished and however many times you accomplish it on the less than full sized diamond is pretty much irrelevant to playing success on the full sized diamond. Puberty and the full size diamond are equalizers and weakneses are now glaring. The HS coach could not care less about what a player did. He only cares about what the player brings to the table now. History means nothing.
The early blooming star is no big deal here. His wrist flick home runs are shallow pop ups. The quick little second baseman all star cannot make the plays impeded by lack of range and strength. Short stop stars move over to 2B because they don't have the arm to make the plays from deep in the hole. Hitters who were stars with super light bats now have trouble getting the ball out of the infield and their previously accepted poor hitting technique no longer gets the job done. A player with advanced puberty can be a star on the small diamond with a blazing fastball from a shortened pitching distance. But the culling out process turns him into a batting practice pitcher. His increased stength and towering 5'7" height end up being an average 5'8" bench warmer in HS with flaws in technique the HScoach doesn't have time to correct and never addresed on the small diamond because his then intimidated coach was afraid to mess with success.
Small diamond teams stacked with physically maturing players will do well and the greater geographic range they draw from the better they will do. And those teams that do practice enough with adequate coaching will max out their skills to the level that their innate ability allows earleier than rec team kids. These teams do not create great players but are good because they attract good players.
The single most important factor to moving forward in the game is the innate ability of the player. Learned skills can be learned quickly with a dedicated and hard working player. It happens all the time with players above the HS level as players learn new positions. It is at this level that passion for the game and the mental part of the game become the difference makers. Finally, if a player is gifted and lucky enough to go on beyond college ball, being able to hit effectively with a wooden bat is another hurdle.
While it can be said that the majority of the playrs on HS teams came from the ranks of travel teams, the majority of travel team players do not become HS players. If they do fool the coach with their glitz and refined skills it will only be for a year. They are approaching the end of a mediocre career.
The early blooming star is no big deal here. His wrist flick home runs are shallow pop ups. The quick little second baseman all star cannot make the plays impeded by lack of range and strength. Short stop stars move over to 2B because they don't have the arm to make the plays from deep in the hole. Hitters who were stars with super light bats now have trouble getting the ball out of the infield and their previously accepted poor hitting technique no longer gets the job done. A player with advanced puberty can be a star on the small diamond with a blazing fastball from a shortened pitching distance. But the culling out process turns him into a batting practice pitcher. His increased stength and towering 5'7" height end up being an average 5'8" bench warmer in HS with flaws in technique the HScoach doesn't have time to correct and never addresed on the small diamond because his then intimidated coach was afraid to mess with success.
Small diamond teams stacked with physically maturing players will do well and the greater geographic range they draw from the better they will do. And those teams that do practice enough with adequate coaching will max out their skills to the level that their innate ability allows earleier than rec team kids. These teams do not create great players but are good because they attract good players.
The single most important factor to moving forward in the game is the innate ability of the player. Learned skills can be learned quickly with a dedicated and hard working player. It happens all the time with players above the HS level as players learn new positions. It is at this level that passion for the game and the mental part of the game become the difference makers. Finally, if a player is gifted and lucky enough to go on beyond college ball, being able to hit effectively with a wooden bat is another hurdle.
While it can be said that the majority of the playrs on HS teams came from the ranks of travel teams, the majority of travel team players do not become HS players. If they do fool the coach with their glitz and refined skills it will only be for a year. They are approaching the end of a mediocre career.
Lots of great points made here, but something that needs to be considered is the widely varied quality of rec programs.
Where I live, the rec program is a disgrace. Rotting light poles falling on the outfields, bathroom septic systems overflowing and running onto the fields, holes in the crabgrass outfields. The local rec program director does not allow his own kids to play rec ball. They play on a travel team instead.
So, to get quality ball around here, the only option in my area is travel. Consequently, much of the travel ball is weak. And so, I would agree coming from a travel history means nothing to a high school coach.
At the same time, the previous city I lived in, in Florida, had an excellent rec program. The rec all-star team attracted and kept the best players. Guess what they did once making the rec all-star team? They traveled to tournaments and played nearly year round. Thus, there really is no difference in a quality rec all-star program and a quality travel program. Its all based on where you are and what opportunity is available. I, for one, hope high school coaches play the best talent they have, at the time they get and develop it. I don't think anyone is in favor of playing a kid merely because he had a history of success at a younger age, regardless of what type program they came from.
So, I don't think any generalizations can be drawn on rec versus travel. The programs vary be too much based on too many factors.
Where I live, the rec program is a disgrace. Rotting light poles falling on the outfields, bathroom septic systems overflowing and running onto the fields, holes in the crabgrass outfields. The local rec program director does not allow his own kids to play rec ball. They play on a travel team instead.
So, to get quality ball around here, the only option in my area is travel. Consequently, much of the travel ball is weak. And so, I would agree coming from a travel history means nothing to a high school coach.
At the same time, the previous city I lived in, in Florida, had an excellent rec program. The rec all-star team attracted and kept the best players. Guess what they did once making the rec all-star team? They traveled to tournaments and played nearly year round. Thus, there really is no difference in a quality rec all-star program and a quality travel program. Its all based on where you are and what opportunity is available. I, for one, hope high school coaches play the best talent they have, at the time they get and develop it. I don't think anyone is in favor of playing a kid merely because he had a history of success at a younger age, regardless of what type program they came from.
So, I don't think any generalizations can be drawn on rec versus travel. The programs vary be too much based on too many factors.
Dacque,
That is all well and good. But what if, the best athletes with the best potential, play travel with excellant coaching? That will make a difference when they compete for spots with each other in HS and it will make the team better. Travel has changed the face of baseball and it is continuing to change it. 40 years ago nobody played travel. Now the argument is when should you start travel, at age 13 or below to make your HS team. Showcases are the big deal now. Trends are changing. If you leave the US you will see an awful lot of little kids playing competitive sports at whatever the national pasttime is in that country. Hockey in Canada, tennis in Russia, wrestling(sp) in Turkey or Iowa, s****r in a few hundred countries. It happens all over the world but in the US we think it is a waste of time. Is everybody else in the world wrong or are we?
Baseball is like any other skill, the sooner you learn to play it correctly, the bettter you will be able to work up to your potential. Why do kids do honors work in grade school and JH? Colleges and future jobs couldn't care less what you did in 8th grade. But we do it anyway because it gives the kids the skills to be successful in HS and beyond.
Why should baseball be any different?
That is all well and good. But what if, the best athletes with the best potential, play travel with excellant coaching? That will make a difference when they compete for spots with each other in HS and it will make the team better. Travel has changed the face of baseball and it is continuing to change it. 40 years ago nobody played travel. Now the argument is when should you start travel, at age 13 or below to make your HS team. Showcases are the big deal now. Trends are changing. If you leave the US you will see an awful lot of little kids playing competitive sports at whatever the national pasttime is in that country. Hockey in Canada, tennis in Russia, wrestling(sp) in Turkey or Iowa, s****r in a few hundred countries. It happens all over the world but in the US we think it is a waste of time. Is everybody else in the world wrong or are we?
Baseball is like any other skill, the sooner you learn to play it correctly, the bettter you will be able to work up to your potential. Why do kids do honors work in grade school and JH? Colleges and future jobs couldn't care less what you did in 8th grade. But we do it anyway because it gives the kids the skills to be successful in HS and beyond.
Why should baseball be any different?
quote:Originally posted by Daque:
If they do fool the coach with their glitz and refined skills it will only be for a year. They are approaching the end of a mediocre career.
Shame on them for playing longer than they had a right to! They probably ended some more deserving talented rec players careers with their skilled but inferior baseball talents. Should've taken those Eckstien like physiques and left baseball at 13 and let the bigger and more physically talented kids take over on the bigger fields!
You made two points in one sentence when you asked about the best talent with excellent coaching. I take note that you did not discuss age. I will agree enirely with your conclusion if we are talking about kids 13 years of age playing on the full sized diamond, a year away from HS tryouts. I stick by my position noted if you are referring to the small diamond. If we disageee, what is it that a player cannot catch up with which was learned on the small diamond in one year on the full sized diamond?
Once a player reaches the full sized diamond he should be playing with and against the best players he can and under the best coaching. Play time is over. It is work from here on out to earn a starting spot on your team.
Once a player reaches the full sized diamond he should be playing with and against the best players he can and under the best coaching. Play time is over. It is work from here on out to earn a starting spot on your team.
Bystander: I undersand your fear and sadness about kids on the bubble hanging on for another year. But eventually the ride ends. You get off of the train and others remain on until their stop. It is a sad day when you hang up the spikes for the last time. Hang on for as long as you can but eventually the game will tell you when it is over. The player will know even if the parents do not. Be there to assist your boy make the transition no matter his age.
Daque,
What I am seeing is that the kids that don't travel until 13 don't get on the teams that are good. They end up playing some form of Daddyball which usually isn't much better than rec. I know there are exceptions to this, but I haven't seen it. Rec here is pretty bad. The skilled players leave to either play both or just skip it after 10-11U or so to get more games and better coaching. Maybe it is just because our rec leagues are so awful, but if you start travel at 13, you are way behind the curve and most kids never catch up.
Like I said, there are exceptions, but not many.
What I am seeing is that the kids that don't travel until 13 don't get on the teams that are good. They end up playing some form of Daddyball which usually isn't much better than rec. I know there are exceptions to this, but I haven't seen it. Rec here is pretty bad. The skilled players leave to either play both or just skip it after 10-11U or so to get more games and better coaching. Maybe it is just because our rec leagues are so awful, but if you start travel at 13, you are way behind the curve and most kids never catch up.
Like I said, there are exceptions, but not many.
Perhaps those 13's to whom you refer did not have the innate ability and/or interest to play earlier. As I stated they must at this age play with and against the best they can and perhaps daddyball is it. I would find it hard that a win oriented travel coach would not take a good athlete just because of minimal experience. That suggests the good old boy network in play. But I am not there and have nothing to judge with.
In any event, I am painting with a big brush in broad strokes. With everythng there are exceptions. You know your area and have to make your decisions based on what is happening there. And certainly no openings to rec players on good teams for whatever reason is an impediment.
In any event, I am painting with a big brush in broad strokes. With everythng there are exceptions. You know your area and have to make your decisions based on what is happening there. And certainly no openings to rec players on good teams for whatever reason is an impediment.
You toss around the term innate ability, please define it, as you see "Innate ability"
Obviously my freshman son is not in the same class talent wise as a lot of these boys who dominate in 3 sports. Right now he is at a very small school and the coach has been talking about using him at short. I heard from a few others that the local d1 hs coach thought he was going to be coming to that school as a freshman like my older son did, and he told a few people that my son was likely going to be his ss as a freshman. But he has worked at baseball.
He also played basketball until this year, he was the jr high track star,(small school) at 5'11 1/2 he can dunk and was the leading scorer, best defensive player and leading rebounder as well as our go to guy when the other team tried to press. That was in jr high. Never took basketball seriously but toyed around with playing this year, ended up not playing because of some growing pains which have now cleared up. Point is, he is much more athletic, and faster than some of the kids who play travel basketball, but the coach wanted him to play on the jv team (no frosh team) and some shorter, slower kids who played year around basketball made varsity as freshman in the past few yrs. They worked hard at basketball on travel teams and deserve to be there. My son played rec basketball and some all star tourneys but never worked at basketball the way he has baseball. If a kid came to me and told me he wanted to play hs basketball I'd advise him to play summer basketball on travel teams. If he came to me and said he wanted to play hs baseball I'd tell him to play and practice as much as he could, if there were outstanding rec baseball around here, that would be fine. But rec baseball around here is very poor. If he was a super stud, three sports would probably be good for him. But not everyone is John Elway.
PS, I guess I get the feeling that some of you think that if my sons had to work at baseball to make their hs teams, then they don't really belong there. My older son was NOT an athletic phenom, but worked at his game and got 4 letters in baseball, set some school records and even played in college and did very well there.
He also played basketball until this year, he was the jr high track star,(small school) at 5'11 1/2 he can dunk and was the leading scorer, best defensive player and leading rebounder as well as our go to guy when the other team tried to press. That was in jr high. Never took basketball seriously but toyed around with playing this year, ended up not playing because of some growing pains which have now cleared up. Point is, he is much more athletic, and faster than some of the kids who play travel basketball, but the coach wanted him to play on the jv team (no frosh team) and some shorter, slower kids who played year around basketball made varsity as freshman in the past few yrs. They worked hard at basketball on travel teams and deserve to be there. My son played rec basketball and some all star tourneys but never worked at basketball the way he has baseball. If a kid came to me and told me he wanted to play hs basketball I'd advise him to play summer basketball on travel teams. If he came to me and said he wanted to play hs baseball I'd tell him to play and practice as much as he could, if there were outstanding rec baseball around here, that would be fine. But rec baseball around here is very poor. If he was a super stud, three sports would probably be good for him. But not everyone is John Elway.
PS, I guess I get the feeling that some of you think that if my sons had to work at baseball to make their hs teams, then they don't really belong there. My older son was NOT an athletic phenom, but worked at his game and got 4 letters in baseball, set some school records and even played in college and did very well there.
Basketball is much different than baseball. In a competitive, larger school basketball program 75% of the kids will be competing to play 2 guard or part time 3 guard when the team goes small and quick. Being able to play point requires a level of quickness a player is born with. 3, 4 and 5 will be at least 6'2". If a kid is one of the 75% competing for one position he better be working full time on his game in the couple of years leading up to high school. I've seen a lot of very good middle school players dreams die competing for the 2 guard position. Most kids are guard size. A team doesn't need eight guards.quote:If a kid came to me and told me he wanted to play hs basketball I'd advise him to play summer basketball on travel teams.
Our high school's starting lineup is:
5: 6'7"
3: 6'4"
4: 6'2" (jumps out of the building)
2: 6'2"
1: 6'1"
The three in the rotation who come off the bench are:
6'4"
6'3"
5'7" (always quickest and fastest kid on the court)
IB and RJM,
I agree completely with your statements regarding the differences between basketball and baseball.
27 played rec basketball when he was young(6-9)along with baseball, and then played baseball exclusively from 10-13. At 13 he tried his hand at basketball again (this time at a more competitive level). The best thing I can say is: he looked good running up and down the court. He was terrible at the game...but he looked good. However, he did get a little better by the end of the season.
At 14, he again went the comp basketball level, playing several "seasons" in that year on a couple of different teams.
Then came Freshman basketball for his HS/JrHS. Out of 63 kids who tried out for the team, all of the starters were comp-level players. Most of the back-ups were comp-level players. There were many comp-level players who didn't make the 12-man squad. The competition was just that fierce. Height and weight didn't matter. There were several tall players and some "big men" who were cut. And, except for 27, every starter and most of the back-ups had played comp-level from an early age. However, if 27 had only played rec-ball, or had decided to try-out for basketball as a freshman after so many years away from the game, I doubt he would have made the team. The skill-sets are so very different from baseball's that his height and athleticism would have made little difference.
However, many of his classmates who played only rec baseball should be making the freshman team this season.
I agree completely with your statements regarding the differences between basketball and baseball.
27 played rec basketball when he was young(6-9)along with baseball, and then played baseball exclusively from 10-13. At 13 he tried his hand at basketball again (this time at a more competitive level). The best thing I can say is: he looked good running up and down the court. He was terrible at the game...but he looked good. However, he did get a little better by the end of the season.
At 14, he again went the comp basketball level, playing several "seasons" in that year on a couple of different teams.
Then came Freshman basketball for his HS/JrHS. Out of 63 kids who tried out for the team, all of the starters were comp-level players. Most of the back-ups were comp-level players. There were many comp-level players who didn't make the 12-man squad. The competition was just that fierce. Height and weight didn't matter. There were several tall players and some "big men" who were cut. And, except for 27, every starter and most of the back-ups had played comp-level from an early age. However, if 27 had only played rec-ball, or had decided to try-out for basketball as a freshman after so many years away from the game, I doubt he would have made the team. The skill-sets are so very different from baseball's that his height and athleticism would have made little difference.
However, many of his classmates who played only rec baseball should be making the freshman team this season.
You are correct about my term, "innate ability." Rather, it should have been, "innate qualities." Size, eye hand coordination, foot speed, strength, and the such. These are genetically acquired traits deermined at conception. Therefore, it is critical that an aspiring athlee choose his parents very carefully.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Daque,
What I am seeing is that the kids that don't travel until 13 don't get on the teams that are good. They end up playing some form of Daddyball which usually isn't much better than rec. I know there are exceptions to this, but I haven't seen it.
if you start travel at 13, you are way behind the curve and most kids never catch up.
QUOTE]
There are plenty of kids who haven't played travel prior to 13 and make their way onto "good" teams. My son being one of them, it helped that he is a lefty pitcher who can find the strike zone. If a kid has the ability to play and has been taught proper technique, a good coach will see that and bring them in even if they are behind the curve, which my son was. Two weeks of quality practice and instruction and you would think he was playing on a big field since he was 10. Now maybe he is an exception, I don't think so.
It's all about how badly they want something and how hard they are willing to work for it. All the talent in the world wont get you past the first day of tryouts if you dog it and that holds true for any sport in any program worth it's salt. I for one want the kids with desire first ability second. It's alot easier to teach a kid to field properly than it is to get a lazy one to hustle Just my $.02
Daque,
What I am seeing is that the kids that don't travel until 13 don't get on the teams that are good. They end up playing some form of Daddyball which usually isn't much better than rec. I know there are exceptions to this, but I haven't seen it.
if you start travel at 13, you are way behind the curve and most kids never catch up.
QUOTE]
There are plenty of kids who haven't played travel prior to 13 and make their way onto "good" teams. My son being one of them, it helped that he is a lefty pitcher who can find the strike zone. If a kid has the ability to play and has been taught proper technique, a good coach will see that and bring them in even if they are behind the curve, which my son was. Two weeks of quality practice and instruction and you would think he was playing on a big field since he was 10. Now maybe he is an exception, I don't think so.
It's all about how badly they want something and how hard they are willing to work for it. All the talent in the world wont get you past the first day of tryouts if you dog it and that holds true for any sport in any program worth it's salt. I for one want the kids with desire first ability second. It's alot easier to teach a kid to field properly than it is to get a lazy one to hustle Just my $.02
Once you get to the full sized diamond going for a good quality travel team holding tryouts, the two things that will get you zapped regardless of talent is an attitude ot meddlesome parents. Good coaches have been around long enough to know it just isn't worth the headache.
A left handed pitcher is always in demand and will be until he is stone cold dead in the grave for two weeks. So in that persective, your son is the exception.
The number of overlooked high quality players far exceeds the number of high quality coachess with the ability to recognize a diamond in the rough. Nepotism and cronyism also exists in HS. Booster club and PTA pressures come to mind.
But remind your son not to let down as it is dog eat dog from here on out. It is work and not play. Hit the weight room with supervision. Run a mile a day. If his coach gives him the opportunity to learn, progress and participate, that is all he can expect. There is no teaching now, only learning.
A left handed pitcher is always in demand and will be until he is stone cold dead in the grave for two weeks. So in that persective, your son is the exception.
The number of overlooked high quality players far exceeds the number of high quality coachess with the ability to recognize a diamond in the rough. Nepotism and cronyism also exists in HS. Booster club and PTA pressures come to mind.
But remind your son not to let down as it is dog eat dog from here on out. It is work and not play. Hit the weight room with supervision. Run a mile a day. If his coach gives him the opportunity to learn, progress and participate, that is all he can expect. There is no teaching now, only learning.
Fortunately for my son, a lot of parents bought into the idea that; because their boys were geneticly superiour they were going to go with the flow and play all sports, and decide later which sport they would play professionally. While they admittedly had been given more physical gifts, they were not Elway and found out too late that the coach was an idiot and couldn't see the obvious superiority! Mean while my son and a few other lessor gifted boys worked at a sport they loved and not only made the high school teams but dominated at the high school level while the rec studs and their parents talked about what an idiot the coach was. And I truely believe some of those rec studs were more gifted, just not as gifted as they thought.
So if your son is on the bubble and loves baseball, you would be surprised how far he can go if he's willing to work at it. If he's the second coming of the likes of Elway, he'll breeze thru high school sports without a sweat. If you think he's Elway and you're wrong, at least he had fun in youth and can move on to life after baseball while his friends play varsity baseball. Everyone has to move on at some point.
So if your son is on the bubble and loves baseball, you would be surprised how far he can go if he's willing to work at it. If he's the second coming of the likes of Elway, he'll breeze thru high school sports without a sweat. If you think he's Elway and you're wrong, at least he had fun in youth and can move on to life after baseball while his friends play varsity baseball. Everyone has to move on at some point.
I'm assuming you mean they remained in rec ball from ages 13-15. If rec ball is weak it can hamper development once they hit the 60/90. If they are significantly better athletes, get the right training and train with commitment, chances are they'll catch up by junior year. The problem is many adopt the "coach is an idiot" approach and give up. If the parents were delusional about their athletic potential from the beginning, they really didn't have the talent to make the team.quote:while the rec studs
How many parents do you know that could even entertain the thought that their child was genetically challenged? A 5'8" father and a 5'6" mother with an early bloomer?
Boys on the bubble as an eaarly adolescent must work harder. But they are not fully cooked yet and mother nature may well still endow them further. You won't know until about age 16 years what the potential may be.
The normal course of events with the rec studs is that they are not challenged by the coaching staff who doesn't want to mess with success. If their advantage comes from early maturation and not from innate ability the ride is nearly over.
Work hard, have passion, learn to deal appropriately with defeat, and develop the other mental parts of the game. Do not concern yourself with things over which you have no control. Work hard on those things that you can control.
Do not look back. Those kids are no longer your peers.
Boys on the bubble as an eaarly adolescent must work harder. But they are not fully cooked yet and mother nature may well still endow them further. You won't know until about age 16 years what the potential may be.
The normal course of events with the rec studs is that they are not challenged by the coaching staff who doesn't want to mess with success. If their advantage comes from early maturation and not from innate ability the ride is nearly over.
Work hard, have passion, learn to deal appropriately with defeat, and develop the other mental parts of the game. Do not concern yourself with things over which you have no control. Work hard on those things that you can control.
Do not look back. Those kids are no longer your peers.