Pro or college

That is a very good post Fungo......

I have no idea if that's even going to be an option for my son..but it's a huge question to think about if he does. I keep thinking back to a post that bbscout made a while back, stating something to the effect of in the draft there are the prospects and the other guys who get drafted because the prospect needs someone to play with. If you are a true prospect the question is not so tough than if you are a mid to lower round guy who has to weigh the options very carefully. As parents we want the best for our children, or at least what we think is best, and that may be different than what our sons think. They may not realize how long the road really is, and how many potholes may be along the way. I want my son to have a good education if baseball doesn't work out for him however far it takes him. I suppose you have to weigh all the options, pick which fork in the road you want to go on, and hope that you made the right choice for yourself. Anyone have a crystal ball handy?

By the way Fungo...I really enjoy your thought provoking posts...

Things to ponder: choose to be a scholarship college player or Minor League bonus player

1. In college you are expected to act like a man, but you are given a structured environment with lots of support in which to grow into that expectation.

2. In the Minor Leagues you are expected to be a man, today, period they have no time or desire for babysitting, just ask Matt Bush.

3. In college you compete for your position but you are playing in a team atmosphere for your school, it's traditions, and it's history.

4. In the Minor Leagues you are competing for your job, period, every one is after it at all times especially for the big bonus kids, quite a different scenario.

5. In most cases after 3-4 years of college if baseball doesn't work out, you have a degree to lean on. After 3-4 years in the Minor Leagues if baseball doesn't work out you have?

6. In college your travel conditions are normally quite good and you play in some of the best venues in the nation.

7. In the Minor Leagues most of your travel is about loooong bus rides and poor food, playing in mediocre facilities.

8. In college the school pays for most everything.

9. In the Minor Leagues you pay for most everything on $ 850.00 month.

10. In college you have to go to school, and get decent grades to stay on the team.

11. In the Minor Leagues you only have to go to the school of hard knocks, your grades are as reflective of your perserverance and drive as much as your talent.

Obviously there's more to it than this but these are some of the things to consider. Some kids at 18 years old absolutely thrive in the Minor League atmosphere, many more though cannot, many times because of simple immaturity, which one is your kid? Only you and he can answer that question together.

OhBaseball24 said: I keep thinking back to a post that bbscout made a while back, stating something to the effect of in the draft there are the prospects and the other guys who get drafted because the prospect needs someone to play with.

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What is described takes place at all levels of baseball and is even more evident as tournament teams are put together. There is always a core group of players that are the nucleus of the team and then there are "fillers" to add a level of talent to the roster that would not be there had it not been for guys who are always looking to "play up". The fact is that a lot of times the fillers can make the "difference" between a losing season and a winning one.

That being said, whether to sign and go pro or go to college IMO is pretty much determined by the round and money offered.

But after speaking to my son about it he told me he realized that his chances of making to the pros wouldn't give him control of his future, as going to college and getting his degree. He didn't like that aspect of turning his future over to others and would rather have a solid foundation of educational accomplishment behind him to fall back on if anything happened such that he didn't make it to the pros or wasn't successful in the endeavor. So he plans on fulfilling his educational requirements before saying yes if that should happen.

I think he has made a wise choice and I respect him for his rationale and reasoning.

There is a pretty good book on this subject, "Go Pro Baseball Wise" by Dragseth. It covers scouts, draft, etc. It also talks about the decision whether to go college or pro.

Frank
Thanks for that post. While I think the decision is dependant upon the individuals make-up, all the points you raise need to be considered by anyone with the choice. The first few years of pro-ball is no picnic for anybody, but if thats what they really want, then they should give it the best effort they can.

Good topic with well thought out responses.

Matadordad, all of those things are true.
Let me give you another point of view. What I would say if I were a scout.

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1. In college you are expected to act like a man, but you are given a structured environment with lots of support in which to grow into that expectation.

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With the Pittsburgh Pirates you would be at the GCL. That is where the spring training facility is. You would live in dorms with 3 squares a day, a room, a maid. With staff living on site.

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2. In the Minor Leagues you are expected to be a man, today, period they have no time or desire for babysitting, just ask Matt Bush.

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A bad kid is a bad kid in college as well. Every college town that I have seen has bars as well. You will be expected to behave accordingly.

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3. In college you compete for your position but you are playing in a team atmosphere for your school, it's traditions, and it's history.

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In the GCL you will be playing in mostly spring training facilities and the Pirates have plenty of tradition . You see that when you practice on Honus Wagner field. Some minor league venues are nice some not. Kind of like the average D-1 school.

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4. In the Minor Leagues you are competing for your job, period, every one is after it at all times especially for the big bonus kids, quite a different scenario.

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The same is true for college. Though you will have the NLI for one year, you may or may not be on that team with the tradition. You get cut in college the same as any other place if you don't perform.

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5. In most cases after 3-4 years of college if baseball doesn't work out, you have a degree to lean on. After 3-4 years in the Minor Leagues if baseball doesn't work out you have?

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Most kids don't know what they want to do right out of high school. Sometimes chasing your dream for a while can help you settle in. What you will have is more maturity. You have to decide the importance of getting a degree now and getting one later. Every situation is different. You need to commit to go back to school or take classes in the off season.

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6. In college your travel conditions are normally quite good and you play in some of the best venues in the nation.

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True for the top programs. Not a guarantee by any means. There are some bad programs as well. Some schools never fly and only bus. Just depends.

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7. In the Minor Leagues most of your travel is about loooong bus rides and poor food, playing in mediocre facilities.

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Same can be said for college. It also depends on the league that you play in.

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9. In the Minor Leagues you pay for most everything on $ 850.00 month.

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What is that college pay again?

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10. In college you have to go to school, and get decent grades to stay on the team.

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Had to do it in hs as well. How much did that stunt your baseball develoment?

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11. In the Minor Leagues you only have to go to the school of hard knocks, your grades are as reflective of your perserverance and drive as much as your talent.

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The chance to do something that only a few ever get to builds character. Success is not only measured by a diploma and a large bank account. A diploma is nom guarentee of success. Companies lay off guy with 20 years all the time. Everything is a risk. The question is. How bad do you want it? Or are you content to wait until after college and give it a try. Guys come out of college and are successful just like out of hs.

I heard everything mentioned above when I brought up school desires. I am not trying to be argumentative. Just be prepared to hear the above from a lot of scouts. Both sides have valid points.

I wanted my son to go to school. So did his agent/advisor. He truly made his own "informed" decision. He has done better than I had hoped. Surprised even me, and I am his biggest fan. He would not change anything.

Some parents will influence their kids some won't. It doesn't matter. Every person's situation is different. JMO

Another great topic from our friend Fungo!


Talked to a dad from Ohio at the East Coast Pro Showcase in Wilmington NC back in 2000. His son was our catcher on the Colorado Rockies team and I asked him what he thought on this subject.

We went over everything that has been listed above. He looked at me and said you know I had a chance to play pro ball but I decided to go to college and I got hurt and never got to finish my dream.

My son decided that college was his first step after the 2001 draft. This will be his last shot to in 2005 to have another chance to give it a try or he will have to get a real job and use that degree he has been working so hard for.

But you know! I wouldn't trade his college years for anything in the world. They have been a treasure we both will always remember. We have been through and done more than I ever thought we would and I feel blessed regardless of the outcome.

In (his) case I still feel college was the best choice and he has grown and matured into a young man I am very proud of.

Great Post from Matadordad and Bighit!

Just like making your college choice its a very hard decision with pros and cons both ways.

Bighit,

Very good counter points, I agree with all of your assessments to a point. While everything you say can be true, more times than not, and this of course depends on the kid and his make-up, the things I pointed out come into play more than they do not.

A small percentage of kids have the ability and maturity to make through 3-4 years of Minor League ball, the masses will probably benefit much more from 3-4 years of college ball and the atmosphere that goes with it. I'm actually not against trying your hand in Minor League ball (if the money's right), I just know that only a select few have the ability and maturity to handle it. I firmly believe most 18 yr. old kids generally are not prepared for the Minor League life, after 3-4 years of college and 22-23 yrs. old they are much better prepared.

Each family has a choice to make of their own that only they can make, there are plusses and minuses that come with each choice. I just happen to beleive that for most kids the college choice is the right one.

Nice job posters. One of the better threads I have read on this site!

Good points all. One more that should be considered is the aluminum bat, or lack thereof in the minor leagues, whether on not pitchers develop differently due to its use. Granted, the pitchers in college are generally those not highly drafted, some would say less skilled. College pitchers may need to bend the ball more, accordingly.

But If you were drafted relatively high, had the choice and aspired to play for money, I would think the best place to do that would be where they use wooden baseball bats all the time.

Lastly, I don't think anyone with the choice can discount the fact that if you want to play pro ball, opt for college, you may never get that chance again.

Pro ball may be literally "once in a lifetime". jmo

If your kid has always dreamed of playing college baseball--then he must follow THAT dream...........if he has always dreamed of playing pro ball and the opportunity is presented--then he must follow THAT dream. I would support my son in whatever dream he chose to pursue. I would encourage him to do all that he could to see that dream come to fruition. I would not tell him the tiny percentage that actually make it to the majors--nor would i tell him that perahps only 60% of college athletes actually get a degree. Life is too short to wonder 'what if i had tried'. I would love to interview 100 major leaguers and see what their parents said early on. Were they encouraged to go after their dream of major league ball?

Fan1516,

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I would love to interview 100 major leaguers and see what their parents said early on. Were they encouraged to go after their dream of major league ball?

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I am sure that most kids are greatly influenced by their parents. That is ok. Parents do what they think is best. Sure, some are heavy handed or overbearing about it.

What impressed me most about my son was that as forceful as I was being about the issue, he stood up told me what he wanted and did not back down. That is all I needed to see. He made his own choice. He was well informed.

We all know that the odds of making it are small. Some do not mind the risk or long odds. Living life to some is about living it not fretting the what ifs! Most kids drafted should go to college.JMO

It is a fact that 50% of the kids signed with my son's class will be gone after 2 years. I always told him that hard work and attrition are his friends.

BigHit,
It is interesting to know that you were originally in favor of your son taking the college route. These days your posts seem to favor going the pro route. Having a son who can stand up to you and make what turns out to be the right decision is something to be proud of.

We have been this road before and I still would want my kid(s) to go to college-- (they are all graduated now)--not just for the baseball and the college degree but for the great experience of being a college student. Being a baseball player in college only makes the experience that more enjoyable and memorable.

I know my four years in college were the BEST 4 YEARS in my life

CaDad,

I was always in favor of him going pro. I was for him to go to a juco for 1 year. I felt that in his situation he would greatly improve his value as this year will not be quite as strong, simply in numbers, with top rh hs pitchers. I felt like this year he would benefit financially. The way he performed has proved my point.

TR I appreciate your sentiment. Maybe being in the minors will be the best 4 years of my son's life. It is all relative. At this point he feels like he made the best choice.

There are tremendous success stories with both options.

Obviously there is no wrong decision to make with great options such as these.

Big

Not arguing what is right for you or anyone else

I only know how I feel and it worked--I only hope it works as well for your son

I wish him the best

We have gone down this road before, but I think it was quite some time ago and I am glad Fungo brought it up again and am glad that Big has voiced what went on in his family. I chose to sign out of high school, and turned down a scholarship to Arizona State. My Dad was a brainiac who was an aeronautical engineer who had a Masters degree from Cal Tech and he wanted me to go to school. Much like Bighit's son, I wanted to sign and that is what happened. I never made the big leagues, but I would do the same thing all over again, because that is what I wanted to do.If I had gone to College and hurt my arm, my Dad and I may have become non pals. as it turned out, we had a great relationship. Of course, the only way you can go through the process is if someone wants to sign the kid. If they don't get offered anything out of High School, you never have to deal with a real life situation.

bbscout,
If you don't mind, who did your Dad work for?

I'm an engineer and we make it very clear to our kids that they are expected to go to and graduate from college. However, in the unlikely case that my son was drafted high enough to believe that he really was a prospect I'd encourage him to go pro. I realize most kids don't go back to school after playing in the minors but I've got to believe a fair number of the ones who don't go to college either weren't college material in the first place or managed to find a career in baseball. I figure it would be my job to make sure he went back to school if he didn't end up making it in baseball.

CADad, He worked for Lockheed in Burbank. He was from Canada and as a young man, he had the chance to sign with the Chicago Black Hawks and turned it down to get his education. He hated his job and that is the main reason that he only gave me a gentle push towards college and not a shove. He spent most of his adult life wishing he had played pro hockey, and did not want that to happen to me. He was right, and I have enjoyed every minute of my working life.

Several have stated the options are 1) Go to the minors out of HS or 2) Go to College and get a degree first. How many actually get the degree? Does anyone know what the average graduation rate is for college baseball players?

Perhaps many decide to go to college in hopes of improving their draft status and securing a degree may not ever happen at all?

Scout
Maybe Dad was a braniac but he sounds like a smart guy.

123KMOM:

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Does anyone know what the average graduation rate is for college baseball players?

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Per the NCAA

http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2004/d1/index.html

the rates are broken down by sport, division, school etc.. I think rates are generally improving recently in other studies.

Baseball D1 plyers graduate in 4 years in 2003 at 47% for freshman 49% for transfers, 58% all students, 60% all student athletes. Makes sense as 5-10% of teams are drafted, it seems.

Fungo,
You have a pm.

OK...so in reality the degree probably won't happen for about 50 percent of the players.

Mine is improving while playing in college. I think this will help him succeed in minor league baseball should he have the opportunity someday.

123KMOM, I could be wrong, but I think the stats are for graduating in 4 years. Most ballplayers who get the chance to sign after their Junior year go ahead and sign. That usually leaves them with about 2 years of college left, which if you are drafted in the first 10-15 rounds gets paid for by the signing club. I know that a lot of guys who go on to have good big league careers do not finish their degree, but would like to know the percentage of the guys who don't make it who go back and get their degree.

PS.....your son will get his opportunity to play pro ball, because he is a talented pitcher.

I don't think the NCAA numbers translate quite the way they appear. Graduation stats were recently posted for Stanford, Cal, San Jose St, Santa Clara. However the articles in the paper went on to explain they were from the freshman class in the 1995-96 range and they only track grad rates for the people who stay at that school. So if a players starts at school A, transfers to B where he plays and finishes, he is counted as a non grad for A and also not counted at all for B since he did not start with B. Also those who get drafted after JR. year and don't complete their degree by year 5 also count as a nongrad. even though they do get their degree at some point. The impression I had was the overall grad rate was higher than the individual school rate just because the NCAA tracks it by those who start and finish at the same school.

Heater02,
I emailed you back and I just copied the email and posted it to the IM. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Fungo

I'm thinking that many ball players are playing in college to A) Improve enough that they get drafted B) Improve their draft status from what it was in their senior year of HS C) Mature physically and emotionally D) Get some classes towards a major.

All seem good reasons to me

BBscout:
Why thank you sir!

Infielddad

You are correct in that the numbers don't reflect what happens to transfers. And, according to this year's annual grad rate survey, they are trying to come up with a way to begin to track this starting in a couple of year, if I read it right.

But what you can take away from the survey is the relative rate for athletes compared to the rest of the student population.

Interestingly, the national grad rate for athletes in D-III is lower than the D-III grad rate for the overall student population. I'm not sure that means anything in terms of the "dream" of going pro, but I found it to be the most interesting note from the survey.

The scholarship athlete (D-I/II) has to be motivated, at least somewhat, to work toward graduation because if they slip, they can't play. If they don't play, they can't improve their chances to go pro.

It would be interesting to see what the rate of return to school, then graduation, is for minor-leaguers who get released. My guess would be the rate of graduation would be significantly higher than the rate of return, simply because those who do go back realize they have to have that degree.

It's late, so did what I write make any sense?

My sons school had three drafted in June all pitchers. One signed, a senior, on his third school. He's in school this fall finishing his degree and helping the team.

The thing I discussed with my son, speaking about the influence a parent might have on a player, was the difference between the objective each endeavor delivers in the end.

Baseball delivers satisfaction of doing the one thing that a person loves, no more and no less. It helps one to understand the meaning of the words commitment and discipline.

That being said it does not take into account the possibilities for a future in our complex and highly competitive society.

A college degree also is indicative of a person who understands the meaning of commitment and discipline, and it offers at the end point the added benefit of "opening" doors into a "broader" spectrum of opportunities for success. More to the point it not putting all your eggs in one single basket as one has to do with baseball.

The main difference for that choice, pro or college, comes down to how the player meets the test for 5 tools and how close he is to being 8/8 with all of them. Not many of those around, and so for most players getting a college degree is my advice. In the end the degree won't hurt you, and it could be the difference between living in wealth or in poverty.

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The main difference for that choice, pro or college, comes down to how the player meets the test for 5 tools and how close he is to being 8/8 with all of them. Not many of those around, and so for most players getting a college degree is my advice.

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Not many in the history of the game, 80/80 5 tools, but I get your point. Someone can make a living in the game doing one or two things very well, but its a long shot, agreed.

While I certainly can appreciate the value of this topic, I would keep any discussions about the June draft to a minimum at this time of year. Let your son concentrate on his senior season, college selection, or even advisor selection right now. IMHO late March or April is probably a better time to bring this up ...unless your son wants to discuss it now.

I will not post on the subject any more after this one.

PiC,

You make several assumptions that just are not correct.

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A college degree also is indicative of a person who understands the meaning of commitment and discipline, and it offers at the end point the added benefit of "opening" doors into a "broader" spectrum of opportunities for success. More to the point it not putting all your eggs in one single basket as one has to do with baseball.

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I hate that as an argument on several levels. You act like not making it in pro ball is the end of all your opportunities. Game over, life over. It just is not true. One can start a career, one can go to school. Please don't paint the broad brush stroke that many don't. Many do as well.

Going to college is beneficial whether one starts at18 or 23.

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The main difference for that choice, pro or college, comes down to how the player meets the test for 5 tools and how close he is to being 8/8 with all of them.

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There isn't 5 players in the bigs with those kinds of tools. If you cannot take the chance at pro ball without being a five tool 80/80 guy. Then you probably don't have the mental makeup. World is full of negative nellies afraid to try.

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That being said it does not take into account the possibilities for a future in our complex and highly competitive society.

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Baaseball on the pro level is a business and highly competitive. Lots to be learned if you know where to look.

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The thing I discussed with my son, speaking about the influence a parent might have on a player, was the difference between the objective each endeavor delivers in the end.

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They both deliver college in the end. One just sooner than the other.

bbscout raised a very good point and a very interesting one-- of the HS players drafted how many go back to college and get their degree ?

In college I think the percentage is in the 70% range for those who get their degree in 4/5 years