promotion of underclassmen

Every situation is different however once you get to the high school level, I always though it should come down to most talented player should play, age shouldn't really matter.

If both players were equal in talent, then I say give the nod to the upperclassman.

There may be an underclassman that is much more talented than the younger player, but the wise coach/manager makes players on all levels earn their promotions.

But often times experience overrides talent, I have seen this in HS, college and on the pro level.

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I believe that jr and seniors should be given a oppertunity to preform

It is my belief that the very best programs do not play an underclassman unless they are far and away better than the upperclassman they are replacing.

An upperclassman not only should be given the chance to perform but they should also fail before they are replaced.

Play your best 9 players.

All things being equal, upperclassmen should get the nod. Unless you got an underclassman on JV or frosh that's better and shows he can outplay an upperclassman at his position, then he should get a shot. The upperclassmen should have get the opportunity to lose their spot. If they lose their spot to an underclassman, then it means they have to continue to work at the game.

Bottom line is you play the players who give you the best shot to win.

For the first time I can remember, my son's former HS varsity team had a freshman make it. This is almost unheard of in a large classification school in this area but he is a tall LHP which helps. It's likely the V & JV is thin on pitching this year and the best option was a freshman.

The purpose of the preseason is to find out who your best 9 are. Then you play them. Things may change as the season goes along but to start out with you evaluate them during preseason and go from there.

I think it's Coach May who said something to the effect of this - you don't have freshmen, sophomores, juniors or seniors on your team. You have baseball players and the grade they are in school doesn't matter. Put your best 9 baseball players on the field and go with it.

I apologize if this quote came from someone else but it does sound like something he would say. If I have butchered the quote I apologize for that too.

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Originally posted by coach2709:
Put your best 9 baseball players on the field and go with it.

Always and for every position? What about developing pitchers? What if you've got three excellent Senior pitchers on the team and a stud Freshman and a couple Juniors that haven't had a chance to touch the mound yet? Wouldn't you be setting up your team for failure once the Seniors graduate? And what if your team is much better than the other team and a Junior would likely have gotten the win even though there were better pitchers on the team?

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Originally posted by Baseball Dad 46:
Should underclassmen ever be promoted over upperclassmen before the upperclassmen have an oppertunity? I believe that jr and seniors should be given a oppertunity to preform before they are overlooked. Most notably all pitchers be given an equal oppertunity to vie for starting roles.

As far as “opportunity”, every player gets plenty of “opportunity” every day at practice and only the coaches see the full scope. Yes, some are gamers and some are not, but coaches get a pretty clear picture when they are working with players 3 hours a day, five days a week. As many have stated, the best nine should play. However, it is rarely that simple. Often, there are not clear cut winners in a battle for a position. Bat vs. glove, maturity vs athleticism, very similar talent level, etc. This is when coaches must factor in many layers of data to make the best decisions for the team, the program and the school. Every situation, every school, every year is different.

Some examples...

If two players offer up like talent level and work ethic, one could argue that it benefits the program long term to play the underclassman so that he gains valuable V game experience early which will benefit the team the following season. But let’s say this school has roughly just enough capable players to fill the V and JV. If they cut or don’t play 3 or 4 seniors for the reason stated above, and instead bring up 4 underclassmen, now the JV (and overall health of the program) suffers. Or let’s say the senior in this example has been a solid member of the program throughout and has not done anything to “lose” his position. In this case, if the underclassman won’t see much play time, he may be better off getting that time on JV. Or, the senior may get the nod due to maturity, previous game experience, etc.

Also, there is pressure (with some merit) from administration to keep as many students involved in sports programs as possible. Sometimes the trickle down effect means that equally talented underclassmen may not get as much opportunity as they otherwise would.

And yes, as others have said, you have to work in underclassmen situationally to give them some experience for next season and beyond.

Tip of the iceberg, really. So, the best nine should play. If there is no clear cut answer to “best”, there are tons of factors being weighed that the parents are not aware of and rarely are these decisions uneducated or wrongly motivated as many would make them out to be.

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Originally posted by Leftysidearmom:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Put your best 9 baseball players on the field and go with it.

Always and for every position? What about developing pitchers? What if you've got three excellent Senior pitchers on the team and a stud Freshman and a couple Juniors that haven't had a chance to touch the mound yet? Wouldn't you be setting up your team for failure once the Seniors graduate? And what if your team is much better than the other team and a Junior would likely have gotten the win even though there were better pitchers on the team?

To me this is two separate situations. What the OP is asking is dealing with a philosophy that will cover the whole season - big picture if you will. What you're talking about is a philosophy that covers certain games / situations - small picture if you will.

I've seen teams rely solely on the absolute best players and never gave bench / younger players much playing team be good from one season to the next. So yes it can happen.

As for me I'm going with my best 9 and then adjust accordingly if I can. So yes I would try to find time for the Junior and Freshman during the season because it will help me for the future. But if I'm playing a conference game or against a really good non-conference team then I'm putting my best 9 out there.

If I have a 25 game schedule and 18 of those games are against good / great teams or are conference teams I'm going to put my best 9 out there and one of the three Senior pitchers you mentioned will get the start.

In the other 7 games we should be playing teams we've historically beaten by 8 runs or more. In these games I'm going to my best fielders / hitters in the starting line up and then use a younger / inexperienced pitcher. Once we have a comfortable lead I will try to sub in other players.

I personally believe that the best 9 should play regardless of age. Varsity HS baseball is all about pride and winning and thus you take the best 9 players out on the field when you want to win. I am reminded of a team south of here who have a stud freshman who throws upper 80's and he was one of the main players on the team and pitched the game for the state playoff championships. There were seniors on that team and it was perhaps their last game but it comes right down to talent and skill level to win. Coaches should put the best 9 on the field the majority of the time.

I agree that underclassman should have to work harder to prove their spot over upperclassmen, but this game isn't about politics or favors- in the end, when it matters, the best talent and skill should get the playing time. That all said, I do think that seniors should get the most playing time on the field because for most of them it may be the end of their baseball careers and we should have some respect for them in letting them have some lasting glory their senior year.

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but this game isn't about politics or favors- in the end, when it matters, the best talent and skill should get the playing time.

Reality is, there's lots of politics and favoritism in HS sports. It would be naive tho believe otherwise.

As others have said, the tricky part of this is when talent levels are nearly the same between under/upperclassmen. THEN who should play?

In some cases, where the team is clearly in a rebuilding year (i.e. only a few seniors this year, not much depth at pitching), some coaches would prefer to get an underclassman ready for future years. That's still a tough pill for a senior or junior to swallow, when they and their whole team can see that a sophomore didn't clearly outplay them in the preseason, yet come game 1 of the regular season, most of the infielders find themselves juggled into new positions to accommodate the shortstop of the future.

To make it even harder to buy into this is the fact that the very same senior who "lost" his SS spot was brought up to V as a sophomore and played there the past two years, only to watch the NEW flavor of the day get his shot now.

On top of that, what if the team hasn't had a winning season in the past decade? At what point does the coach just realize "My constant search for the next great stud isn't panning out, and meanwhile, I'm not really showing much loyalty to my upperclassmen (again, ONLY if they're still equal in talent to underclassman), so maybe I should get over this whole 'build for the future' stuff and maybe focus a bit more on what I have right now"???

FWIW, no, MY son isn't the senior SS who was pushed aside this year for the soph. But my son and the senior played most of the preseason games at SS and most people thought that was the competition for SS. Then, all of a sudden, the practice before the final preseason game, the switch was made, and the soph has been the SS ever since. On top of that, he made a couple errors in that preseason game, so this was a real shock.

Now I must admit that the soph so far is playing very well at SS and is also leading the team in batting average (through 4 games and 13 plate appearances that include 2 HBP and a walk, which isn't enough ABs yet to draw any conclusions). So maybe this coach IS a genius and just saw something at practices that we didn't? Or maybe over another 10-15 games, he won't continue this pace?

This can create an air in the dugout in which upperclassmen are looking over their shoulder too much. I understand that to a certain degree this is always the case. But when a team sees their starting senior SS for the past two years as well as the starting JV/freshman SS the past two years BOTH pushed aside before even a regular season game has been played, it just doesn't seem like much of a morale builder. Now, if the coach really has his eye on the NEXT couple years, then it starts to make sense (though I still disagree) - especially if, as the season progresses, the team gets in a deep hole before mid-season, the coach starts to "give" more upperclassmen positions to underclassmen. That'd be a shame if the older kids haven't actually "lost" their spots. Why punish them because the team lacks pitching depth and won't win a lot?

It's just tough to watch upperclassmen be pushed aside when they haven't clearly lost their spots. This isn't pro baseball folks, we're still dealing w/ KIDS.

My 2 cents.

Thanks all for your input. Some have missed the point of upperclassman getting an oppertunity---by this I mean game situations. EX: Some kids look great in BP but struggle with live pitching. Or oppisite a pitcher with avg speed (80-83 hs)may look ok in practice but be a great game pitcher with change of speed and location. Zoobiewolf I think hit it n head.

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"Zoobiewolf I think hit it n head."

And he never misses, dang it!



It'll be a few days 'fore you can start calling me Jughead again. Stick with Knothead for now.




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quote:

Originally posted by Baseball Dad 46:
Thanks all for your input. Some have missed the point of upperclassman getting an oppertunity---by this I mean game situations. EX: Some kids look great in BP but struggle with live pitching. Or oppisite a pitcher with avg speed (80-83 hs)may look ok in practice but be a great game pitcher with change of speed and location. Zoobiewolf I think hit it n head.

I was very hesitant to post this - hopefully you get that my only motivation is to try to help your son...

Honestly, it is a bit unfortunate, and perhaps telling, that with all the good info provided in this thread, you choose to migrate directly to the "politics and favoritism" post.
I hope, for your son's sake, that this is not the info that you share with him.
BTW, your examples are not an issue of upper vs underclassmen but an issue of talent/tools vs game effectiveness. Yes, when you consistently have less velo as a pitcher and less lightning in your bat in practice, you may get less opportunity. Your son just needs to keep trying to sieze them when they come, not be thinking about politics or favoritism.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Baseball Dad 46:
Thanks all for your input. Some have missed the point of upperclassman getting an oppertunity---by this I mean game situations. EX: Some kids look great in BP but struggle with live pitching. Or oppisite a pitcher with avg speed (80-83 hs)may look ok in practice but be a great game pitcher with change of speed and location. Zoobiewolf I think hit it n head.

I was very hesitant to post this - hopefully you get that my only motivation is to try to help your son...

Honestly, it is a bit unfortunate, and perhaps telling, that with all the good info provided in this thread, you choose to migrate directly to the "politics and favoritism" post.
I hope, for your son's sake, that this is not the info that you share with him.
BTW, your examples are not an issue of upper vs underclassmen but an issue of talent/tools vs game effectiveness. Yes, when you consistently have less velo as a pitcher and less lightning in your bat in practice, you may get less opportunity. Your son just needs to keep trying to sieze them when they come, not be thinking about politics or favoritism.

Good stuff and perceptive. I too also hope that this isn't shared with player.

I find it interesting that many folks see it as politics, they just can't accept it for what it is, and sometimes that all depends on the coaches philosophy and if it's about development or just winning all of the time.

As far as the best 9 always taking the field, I haven't always seen that happen. Sometimes it doesn't matter who is more talented and sometimes it does. Sometimes the younger more talented sits while the older more experienced plays. Sometimes it's about the younger player who is the teams future struggling to find his way while the more experienced guy sits the bench.
But when we feel our player is at the short end of the stick, it is all about politics!

Parents never seem to be happy. Their son makes V but they sit, their son doesn't make V and they are by far better than anyone, isn't anyone out there happy anymore, instead of using this as an opportunity for growth it's about your kids getting the shaft.

TPM the best player is not always the most talented in a given situation on a given team. And I know you know that. Sometimes a more talented player is not the best option. Sometimes the more experienced is. The coach makes out the line up based on who he thinks gives his team the best opportunity to win. Everyone has an opinion. The only one that matters as far as the line up is the coaches. The sooner parents grasp the concept the better.

Each situation is different--parents are not always wrong on there perception of a situation. I could write a small book to explain my own situation anyone curious can pm me but I wont air them here. I only tell my son to keep working hard and when his oppertunity comes he will be ready and if it takes till summer ball so be it. I know that the coaches have the power here---it doesnt make them always right--or wrong

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"Each situation is different."

Exactly right.



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Some see "big" and think that is the end all. Can't field, who cares, can't hit a fb, who cares?

Can he hit a off speed mistake a country mile YEP!

Can he field his position? Nope!

Can he hit a off speed mistake a country mile YEP!