Proposed New High School Transfer Rules

I think freedom of choice is a bad thing!

Making a kid stay somewhere that he doesn't want to be is about protecting public schools from private schools being competitive. They have the same rules in Texas and the private schools there (except for 4 or 5) are not good at all. They are jv teams.

That is what the public schools are trying to do private schools. Hey look, if you buy a new house and move into a new district, then you have to prove it was not for sports reasons. If they don't have witnesses saying that they over heard you saying it, you will be allowed to transfer.

But.........if you stay where you are at and just go to a private school.....now you have to prove that it is not for athletic reasons. Hard to do if your kid is a good athlete and the school is a good sports school and the other schools coach raises a stink. It is nothing more than an attempt to squash the private schools that have very successful sports programs.

Who gets punished here? The kid and private schools. What a monumental waste of time. I think that you should give kids the choice and punish the offending school for recruiting. But nooooo! That would be common sense! The fhsaa doesn't care about the kids. It cannot police its own, so it is going to make a ridiculous rule and punish the kids. Simply because it cannot enforce its own rules now.

Hey BigHit I believe the new rule applies to public to public transfers as well as public to private and private to private as well. However, the FHSAA site doesn't come out and say it. It wouldn't make sense to apply it only to public to private or public to public but remember we're in Florida and nothing that they do makes sense. Remember last year when they reduced the number of Baseball contests from 28 to 25. No legit reasons were given, no one spoke to the coaches or the kids, it was just done by the committee.

I am not familiar with the ruling, but I do not believe it applies if the student moves?
I have been in South Florida for 29 years. I am not familiar with other sports, but have seen more transfers from private to private than to public to public. The Broward county school board has been pretty flexible with allowing transfers for any reason (though we had to MOVE for our son to attend CSHS). His reasons were not for the baseball program either, but for the Quantuam Leap academic program.
I also know of a lot of falsification that went on for years regarding home addresses.

I disagree, Bighit. Kids should look at high school as preparation for life and, hopefully college. And if they have big league dreams, being on a wining team is irrelevant to scouts and colege recruiters anyway.

In South Florida, things have become ridiculous. Some kids attend 4 different high schools in 4 years, even travelling to other counties. Many "premier" programs bring in several seniors and juniors every year who take starting positions away from other players. and we all know some coaches recruit vigorously, even though it's against the rules. That tells the kids it's all about winning, not about learning the sport, or academics. To me, that's wrong, and I am glad the FHSAA finally is doing something about it.

And no private school is being "punished," they just will have to stock their team with kids who went their for the school since at least 9th grade, or those that have a non-sports reason to be there. These schools shouldn't be turned into sports programs, where the academics are virtually non-existent. Except for the one in a million player who gets drafted high enough to get a significant bonus, which would have happened to a top player anyway, it's the other students are punished by this emphasis on winning instead of learning.

quote:

I am not familiar with the ruling, but I do not believe it applies if the student moves?

TPM,
Don't know whether it does or not. However, 3 years ago there was a case where a kid moved from Texas to the top private (football school) in Louisiana and the rules in La ruled that he had to sit out a year because he came for sports reasons. The dad bought a house and moved his business to Louisiana. So they can rule whatever they want to rule depending on how it is worded, and we know that the FHSAA will word to give them absolute power.

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And if they have big league dreams, being on a wining team is irrelevant to scouts and colege recruiters anyway.

That is naive and incorrect. For one good teams have more kids get schollys and drafted because of their success. I have studied the last 5 drafts and recruiting classes and I can tell you emphatically that success adds schollys. You better have great talent to get noticed if you are on a stinker.

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Many "premier" programs bring in several seniors and juniors every year who take starting positions away from other players.

So? Are you saying that players who start a school in 9th grade should get preference over new students based on seniority and not ability? Then that proves my point why private schools in Texas have doo doo programs and it is a shame. They would not lose their position if they were any good. jmo

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and we all know some coaches recruit vigorously, even though it's against the rules.

Again you prove my point. What they are trying to do is punish private schools by going after transferring students rather than going after recruiting coaches. They are taking away the right to choose and free will of the student, simply because they cannot control the coaches recruiting. That is a slippery slope.

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That tells the kids it's all about winning, not about learning the sport, or academics. To me, that's wrong, and I am glad the FHSAA finally is doing something about it.

That is a very noble idea. As long as they have a scoreboard, it is about winning and losing coaches get fired. I believe your view is valiant, but unrealistic. I agree that those values should be taght, but the new rule will punish a kid who has talent and has a coach that is a total loser. The most important thing is to get an education. Who cares where. The rule sets up a situation that is ripe for abuse if a kid leaves for any reason, legit or otherwise. I have seen it happen. It is easier for the FHSAA to do something to a kid than a coach. All that due process stuff and minors not having any recourse, etc.

quote:

And no private school is being "punished," they just will have to stock their team with kids who went their for the school since at least 9th grade, or those that have a non-sports reason to be there. These schools shouldn't be turned into sports programs, where the academics are virtually non-existent.

What about the talented ballplayer who doesn't socialize well in a big school. I know many kids that transferred for that reason and the dads and moms also looked for a quality sports program as well. It is inherently unfair to make a broadbrush ruling like that because innocent people will end up getting screwed. GO AFTER THE RECRUITING COACHES SO AS NOT TO PUNISH INNOCENTS! That is a duh factor to me. Many private schools have better academics than public, but now the good athlete/student has to sit out a year because the public coach files a greivance? Not fair and not good. Is it fair to possibly cost him a schooly because his parents want better academics and a good sports program? I don't think so.

BTW, my son was in 4 hs in 4 years in 2 states. He may never have been allowed to play. He did ok preparing for life in my opinion.

In conclusion I admire your ideals, but I do not believe them to be based in realistic application. So I have to successfully disagree.

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I have studied the last 5 drafts and recruiting classes and I can tell you emphatically that success adds schollys.

Check out the rosters of top college teams. You will see the same high schools, both public and private, represented over and over. 12 to 15 hifg schools schools in the state of Florida feed colleges, year after year.

Big,

We have a situation in Orlando where a coach has a kid from another high school on his summer team.

All of a sudden this player is leaving his school in one county and heading to the school where the summer coach is head coach.

Why should outright recruiting like that be allowed. That is why I support a rule that states a player must sit out a year if they transfer. In addition coaches must be punished for recruiting, but that is harder to prove. The kids moving from school to school is absolute proof there is something going on.

It has to stop.

You are right Bob. We should punish every kid who wants to transfer, just so we don't miss a couple doiing it for the wrong reason. Since it is easier to prove!

I'm not looking to argue, but there is a huge amount of recruiting done here in Orlando at both the public and pivate schools in Orange and Lake counties.

If you read the new rule it states that the player transferring has the right to go before a hardship committee and explain the reason they are transferring. If they are not willing to do that than they should sit out.

If I accuse you of something and you know it is not true you will make sure that everyone in the world knows that I am wrong and you are right. If a player is transferring for a legit reason than appearing before a hardship committee should not be a problem.

I'd like to see the player in my post above go before that committee. Of what about if the coach recruits players from out of state like Georgia? Should that player be allowed to play? No!

Part of the problem is that parents are to blame as well. The coach promises that their child will receive preferential treatment or that his younger brother will make varsity and they sitch schools. Or maybe there is money involved? Who knows? Which is why the FHSAA has to get a handle on this.

In using you as an example, Little Eric only switched schools because of family moves from Florida to texas and back. If you had to go to a hardship committee you would clearly state that and he would be allowed to play. If there is no wrongdoing than there should be no problem with any investigation.

On another note how is Eric doing?

All good points. Bob, in the example you gave earlier about the kid playing summer ball and now transfering to that head coach's school, there is already a rule in place for that. it clearly states that a player who transfers to a school where he played for that coach on any team(summer, all-star, traveling, etc...) is ineligible to play at that school. That coach just picked up a player he can't use. The player's parents should check the rule before he attends that school.
Bighit makes a good point about the coaches not being punished, only the kids. They should include in the new rule a provision that says that if it is proven that a coach recruited a player that coach is suspended 1 year from coaching and the school is fined and sanctioned. That way they spred the responsibility around evenly.
Part of the problem I believe lies in the fact that the committees that decide these issues are composed of schools that have a conflict of interest. How do you rule on a complaint regarding a school that you compete against year after year? or that maybe had one of their players transfer to your school in the past? We need conf;ict free people on those committees.
Also the way the FHSAA rules are set up only the school can appeal a decision not the kids. I have a severe problem with that, in not giving the kids some due process in a proceeding where they will be directly affected by the outcome.

Folks,

I know the player and family of who Bob is accusing of violations. In fact, I just talked to his father who asked me to delete your post.

MANY OF BOB'S FACTS ARE FALSE!!!!!

I suggest you remove your accusations and WHEN you get the facts straight, repost.

I'm sure you will do the right thing.

FLADAD,

I specifically did not name any players because I felt that would be unfair and I will not name any players in this post either. If you want me to delete the above post (and I don't necessarily have a problem doing that) call me and explain who is contacting you.

Baseball25,

I agree with you that the coaches should have some punishment against them as well as the player. But when a player is recruited the parents know it is wrong so if they go ahead with it and get caught then then kid must suffer the consequences.

If no one reports a player who transfered (which happens a lot) then the kid gets a free ride. If all transfers have to appear before the hardship committee than ALL players will be treated fairly.

That is the point of the new rule.

I still believe that if you have nothing to hide then going before a committee should be no problem.

Bob,

You know who contacted me, his father. You have made serious accusations against a player and his family without facts, just hearsay. And your attempt to justify your post be stating " I didn't name the player" is still inapproperiate.

Bob, don't be part of a rumor mill. Again, do the right thing.

Wow! What ever happened to the "high school experience"...life long friends, proms, homecoming? What is the meaning of "homecoming" if you have attended 4 schools? Other than necessary transfers (family moving etc.) what is the point of changing schools for the sake of baseball? To learn how to beat the system? To get more playing time? What about earning time at your own school...beating out the next guy? With all the showcases and summer leagues, if a player is good enough they will be found. There is no question! Is it really the kids who want to change schools, or their parents. No, this post is not about the new rule, but the reason that it is being considered.

Bob, the reason I didn't respond to your post was simple. You are talking about facts that you were not privvy to. That is inappropriate, and only served to make your point and is not a factual case. Only what you "thought" happened.

That pretty much proves the point that I was talking about. Abuses of the system because a coach is angry at losing a good player.

Puma, I have no problem with your feelings on the subject. However, I also am pleased that you have the right to choose to live your life and raise your children the way you see fit. What if other parents decide that it is in their childs best interest, self-esteem, etc, is to go to another school for anothr coach? Aren't you essentially taking away freedom of choice and making the student "property", as well as deciding how everyone else should run their lives. I still believe in freedom of choice and this is not an area that an organization shopuld be involved. So what if people transfer? Who cares? It is only a game. Let us not cloud it in "what is best for the child" or "school should be about academics". It is about public hs coaches wanting to keep their better players in inferior programs. Like it or not talented ball players need to be nutured and developed and their are many hs coaches not capable of accomodating that. If we do that, then what is next? No sports at all? Using the argument that it interferes with academics and social time.

This isn't Russia, Danny. This isn't Russia is it? No.No. Sorry I couldn't resist a little Caddyshack qoute. How ridiculous is it when we tell a 14-18 child that he can't play a sport because his or her Mom or Dad transfered jobs. Think about it. Don't give me the, well you can appeal the decision. Are you kidding me! This is America the last time I checked. Freedom of choice is one of the things we fought for. If a parent thinks that their child is better off at another school for academics or athletics and wants to move to make that happen that should be their right. Are you telling me that as a society we should be focused on issues like this? Maybe I'm missing it. Honestly, the FSHAA is out of control. I got it, let's put in force a completely restrictive policy because some kids want to play a SPORT at another school. The FHSAA is Russia. They are out of control. Sorry for the rant. Hey, my kid wouldn't transfer for anything. He loves his school and his coach. But if he didn't, I be pi--ed off if his chances to play were limited because some administrator thought they were the "czar".

Based on what you are saying is it OK for coaches to recruit players from other schools? Maybe your son's team is a good one, but then one of the stars is promised something more or the dad is an egomaniac and transfers the kid to another school for baseball-only reasons.

Is it right to allow a high school coach to recruit players?

If a parent changes jobs and is forced the move the player will be allowed to play. What is wrong with having to appeal in that case when you know you will win.

My point is there are coaches recruiting players and parents selling their kids to the highest bidder. We see it here in Orlando a lot. Whether it is the parent or the kid transferring for baseball reasons alone is wrong.

Who will decide what a legitimate reason for transfering is? The FHSAA board which is composed of member school representatives, some or all of whom, usually compete against the school being judged in one sport or another.

I'd like to share with all of you a personal experience dealing with that board about 5-7 years ago. In about 98 or 99 I represented a group of kids from a school in south florida on a series of recruiting violations in Basketball. My investigator and I interviewed every kid with permition of the parents, we also interviewed the parents and checked out their stories. Everyone had a non-athletic reason for transferring. One kid had one of his parents change jobs from North Florida to South Florida. Another kid and his father got into an argument with the coach at his old school because the coach didn't nominate the kid for all county honors and the argument got so bad that the kid said he would never play for that coach or that school ever again. Another kid was an international student who moved to the area and was living with a relative.
The Board didn't give a "rat's a...." about each kid's respective case. In fact they ruled the kids couldn't even present their position. They sanctioned and fined the school. The kids, those who were seniors went on to college. Those that were juniors ended up having to leave the state to play their senior year. They never got a chance to clear their names because of the Board's ruling and the Board cutting a deal with the school.

The kids ended up playing college and of the 5, three are playing in the NBA. But not because of any fair hearing provided by the FHSAA.

Bob, I have always had tremendous respect for you, as an excellent baseball coach and a contributing member of this site. Your point is well taken. However, my point was that the kids never got a chance to present their position.
The FHSAA rules do not allow the kids to present their position, only the school can. The school's interest is not always the kid's interest. So there is a big conflict there. The school cuts a deal with FHSAA for whatever reason and that deal may hurt the kid. This is what happened in our case.
What happens when a kid and a coach have a falling out and the coach starts to make the kid's life miserable? The coach is just another school employee. How is that different from the kid having a falling out with the principle? There are too many variables involved here. That's why it's vital to let the kids present their position individually and not through the school. The school should and must present its position to show they did not recruit the kid. But the kid must also be allowed to present his/her position to show the transfer was for legitimate reasons. The board needs to look at the totality of the circumstances and each case individually.

For example, What was the reason for the transfer? Was the kid a starter at his old school? Did the kid receive financial aid at the new school? Did anyone from the new school have contact with the kid or the parents? How many other transfers came into the new school at the same time with the kid? The answers to these questions and others will reveal a pattern of conduct and will lead to the conclusion of whether the transfer was for legitimate reasons or whether there was recruiting. With each party( school, kid and FHSAA) presenting there position you will probably get a complete picture of what happened.
As it sits right now the process is tainted and you will not get an accurate picture of what happened. The new rule has not fixed this problem. All they are doing is putting a band aid on a bleeding artery.

Baseball25,

I totally agree that the student-athlete should be allowed to state their case as well as the school. That is only fair.

Any Florida websters have any info about The Bolles School in Jacksonville? This fine academic prep school offers a fifth year or post-grad year of study. This has become a possible option for our son as he just underwent Tommy John surgery and will miss his junior year of HS. With an uncertain summer following his junior year and then his senior year we would entertain the idea of sending him for a post-grad year at a school with a strong baseball program and strong academics.

Their website claims that they won the Florida 3A State title in 2002 and is listed by Sports Illustrated in the top 25 HS sports programs in the country!

Would he be allowed under Florida rules to participate as a student athlete even though he would have a diploma from a HS in another state? Any ideas would be welcomed. Thank you.

Chipper Jones is a Bolles alum. The FHSAA governs eligibility of student athletes. I would call the school to find out specifics. The FHSAA baseball rulebook SEEMS to indicate post grads are not eligible for the playoffs.

4. Must not have graduated from any high school or its equivalent. (FHSAA Bylaw 11.2)

http://www.fhsaa.org/rules/2004_05/ba.pdf

I would check that though.

Good luck to your son.

Dad04, thank you for your help. I just got off the phone with the compliance and elegibility director with FHSAA and I was told that there are 2 rules in effect which would not allow my son to play for Bolles. First, you're only allowed 4 years from the beginning of 9th grade, and secondly, if you have received a diploma from another HS you cannot play under Florida law.

IR

Good idea though. I was a New England "preppy" and went to school with a bunch of "PG's" who played, however we had our own athletic association and championship series, therefore rules allowing them the 5th year. Most were there getting an academic "do over" before heading off to big time college athletics.

I really tried to ignore this topic and not respond. After all I have no dog in this fight any longer. But I lost out to my "better" instincts. This is a terrible rule if for no other reason than it is an example of using a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito. Other than innuendo, who can provide a bona fide tale of "recruiting" that has caused anyone any harm? I have seen the comments that kids transferring is evidence of recruiting. That is ludicrous. Nothing succeeds like success and I know many kids who transferred for this reason. No recruiting involved. (By the way, just what does recruing mean?) They want to better themselves. Isn't that what the whole schooling process is about? Why should that be any different for baseball than algebra? So what is the FHSAA trying to control here? (Please note I write only about baseball and no other sport).

First, ask who has a "right" (in the sense that they have been harmed) to complain about transfers? A few coaches who have lost some players; parents upset when what they consider to be their son's legacy spot on the field is taken by a newcomer; and a few parents who know that when a good player leaves it means less exposure for their kids. It is all well and good for us to wax nostalgically about the "4 year HS experience." But why should any single one of us care that some kids may go to four different schools in 4 years? That is none of our business. Also, please keep in mind that that is an extreme example and in no way typical of the problem (if there is one) or the solution. Further, in that "extreme example" I bet you are always talking about the parents and not the kids. If this is so important I suggest spending your energies on the parents and leaving the kids alone! Why would anyone suggest something to harm them?

I think BigHit is 100% correct: this rule is aimed (if it has any aim whatsoever) at private schools. Essentially the present rule allows transfers from private to private, or from private to your assigned public school. I know of kids who have gotten around the rules somewhat by transferring to a non-assigned public school because of a special program that school may have. Perhaps this may be a grounds for inquiry, but how petty do you want to get?

If this is such a big problem then we need to go after the programs that recruit, not the kids and parents. Is this more difficult? Yes! But, it is only logical. Why require someone to prove a negative? The FHSAA will, if it can, arrange the rules to pick on the weakest part of the chain, the individuals who most likely do not have the knowledge or wherewithal to fight back. Knowingly or not, this is what all organizations eventually do, which leads to the biggest problem with this proposal; the notion that everything will be "fair" or "OK" because the player can "appeal" to the FHSAA.

Bob Pincus wrote, "I still believe that if you have nothing to hide then going before a committee should be no problem." Bob, I sincerely respect your posts and the work you have done to benefit Florida HS baseball players. But, this sentence is historically applied to justify every unwarranted government or organizational intrusion into the personal lives of people. ("Why shouldn't we have a government monitor living in all of our houses if we have nothing to hide?") Here are a few illustrations of why this "safeguard" is an illusion.

A kid gets put in a private school because his parents fervently believe it will be in his best interests. He becomes a good player at that school. But, for his senior year, he asks his parents to let him attend the local public school, like his siblings did, so he can have some of the same experiences. The local school happens to have a high profile baseball program.

A parent of a high profile kid at a private school loses his job and can't justify the tuition any longer. A decision is made to transfer to the assigned public school which happens to be a dominant baseball power, while it appears, that year, the private school is on the downswing.

A private school completely changes its approach and philosophy towards sports; all the coaches quit; scholarships are reduced or eliminated, parents can no longer afford tuition, and the player decides to attend his assigned public school.

Most people think that you can go before a governing board; tell the truth; and walk out with an obvious victory. Most people have not been before a governing board. Like all organizations the primary goal of the FHSAA, stated or not, is self-preservation, which requires protecting its rules. It is right, you are wrong. There are no rules, procedures or standards set down to govern any FHSAA decision on this new rule.

There is no record of any practical use (in court) delineating prior FHSAA rulings as a means for comparison to present ones. The courts won't help you (even if you can afford the process). At this point, the courts do not review the FHSAA's decisions except to determine whether the FHSAA followed its own by-laws and procedures. Further, even if you can prove outright wrongdoing, no court will be able to reach an "evidentiary" decision until long after the HS season is over. There is no way you will be able to "prove" the truth in an FHSAA proceeding, and no way you will have a record reviewable by a court of law. You will have to rely on beneficence, and luck.

Most likely, you will lose all of the above cases, especially in the beginning. There is no way the FHSAA will relish taking on numerous transfer cases every year and it will make an example early on. You will have to move to Georgia or Tennessee etc., and hope for the best, if you want your kid to play.

Even if you believe I am off-base on the above, ask how much can you afford to pay for a lawyer to represent you in these entirely innocent circumstances? You will need one! Especially, those kids who try to transfer in the next few years. Please put the sledgehammer away. Repeatedly over the last few years we have seen teams win state championships (which is the only thing the FHSAA actually provides) that have triumphed over those schools who, allegedly, recruit players. In baseball, not even talent can overcome a group of kids who believe.

Fabeets, it's hard to decide where to begin in responding to your post.

In my opinion, the fact that a student is allowed to transfer to another high school because of its sports program is in derogation of the mission of our schools. Our academic achievement, particularly in Florida, is lagging, and schools (and parents, teachers, and students) should be focused on education. That's not to say that sports are without value. On the contrary, learning to compete within the rules is a valuable part of education, and should be provided to all students.

The problem is when the emphasis is on "winning" at all costs. Now, to address the specifics of your post:

quote:

Nothing succeeds like success and I know many kids who transferred for this reason. No recruiting involved.

You are awfully naive. No "big time" program gets there just hoping for good players to transfer, and no good player transfers without an understanding as to his role. Recruiting, either directly, or through intermediaries, is rampant, at least in South Florida.

quote:

First, ask who has a "right" (in the sense that they have been harmed) to complain about transfers?

Well, we all do. The emphasis on winning in sports at all costs is destructive of the school atmosphere, the open recruiting engenders disrespect for rules, and the dishonesty involved on the part of coaches and parents is reprehensible.

quote:

If this is so important I suggest spending your energies on the parents and leaving the kids alone! Why would anyone suggest something to harm them?

Keeping kids in their "home" school is harming them? We obviously disagree on why the kids are in school in the first place.

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If this is such a big problem then we need to go after the programs that recruit, not the kids and parents.

That's exactly what the FHSAA is doing. Forbidding transfers puts a stop to recruiting more effectively than trying to investigate all the bad coaches.

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Here are a few illustrations of why this "safeguard" is an illusion.

Your illustrations are just "straw men," that have little to do with the recruiting problem. If the rule is too broad, it's easy enough to amend it to create exceptions. After all, rules, and their exceptions, are what we all have to learn to live by. No lawyers will be necessary, except in rare cases not clearly covered by the rule and then, at least down here, there always has been a lawyer connected with the team that helped out for free. The fact that the rule could be better written is not a valid argument for having no rule at all.

Frankly, this debate illustrates, to me, what's wrong. Very few kids will ever get a college baseball scholarship (and even those usually get a small fraction of the costs) and almost none will ever make a living from the sport. If we ocus on their education (including the part about ethics and integrity), not on being on a winning team in their sport, they will have a better chance at future success. There is nothing wrong with dreaming of a career in baseball, but it's not likely to happen. And if you check the MLB draft, you'll find that the talented players are noticed, and drafted , even when they play for losing programs. Teach them to love the game, and the spirit of competition within the rules, and we have given them something of value. Teach them that winning is all that matters, that loyalty to players who have been in the school (and lose their spot to a transfer) is unnecessary,that dishonesty (regarding the reasons for transfer)is OK, and that we respect adults (the coaches who recruit) who break the rules to win, and we have created a nightmare.

I have been a resident of Broward county for almost 30 years. I have seen dozens of kids transfer or lie with addresses for various reasons, mostly academic and baseball related. In the case of baseball, I have seen players transfer because of those usual reasons, they didn't like the coach, not enough playing time. They transfered to better bb programs, still sat or didn't like the coach. I also know of several instances where the player would have been better off awaiting his playing time as a junior and senior, but the parents didn't like their sons waiting for that opportunity. Where the player would have had a chance to play everyday and perhaps become a better player, they remained stagnent awaiting their at bats, or more time on the mound, even as seniors.
This problem eventually effects programs, and then creates an imbalance in the playing field. The ruling by the FHSAA is long overdue, for whatever reaons.
As far as private schools, I have seen MANY players attend more than one in their HS years. The shift comes after one particular school has a successful year. This too has hurt many of their programs, creating an unbalanced shift in competition. As long as parents believe that where their son goes to school to play will affect their playing past HS, this will continue. The reasons were not because they could not afford it.
I can tell you from experience, as Bighit can, if a player is a quality player he can play anywhere, winning team or no winning team. Here in Florida, they will find you, regardless of whether your team has won a state championship or not.

I think the point is being missed here. Recruiting is already a violation. Improve the rules on that. What is going on here is that they are making the student the property of the district in which he lives. It is inherently unfair to not allow a student to transfer to a private school, for whatever reason, and have to sit out a year. If he goes for academics, he should not be punished by losing out on sports. It is a slap at private schools and all will be punished because the fhsaa cannot enforce or improve its present rules. I am never in favor of a rule like this that will limit a students ability to find the right fit. Seems like communist China to me. Yes, many people make mistakes, but it is their mistake and I don't like people punishing everybody just to try to stop a couple of cheats. Not fair. FHSAA sux.

Simply, the problem is that every student is guilty until proven innocent if this goes into effect. The STUDENT has to PROVE that there is no violation in transferring schools, whereas, if there is a recruiting violation it should be up to the "POWERS THAT BE" to PROVE that one has been comitted.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

FloridaDad,

I just don't understand the whole "we live in America ...we aren't in Russia..." (we have freedom) argument.

Let me ask you this. If your son was drafted by the Pirates, does he have the "freedom" to play for the Yankees?

If your son played 4 years of college ball, does the have the "freedom" to continue to play for another year?

If your son was a citizen of France, would he have the "freedom" to play for the US Olympic Team?

Yes...we live in a free society. That DOES NOT mean that you can do whatever you want. It means that you have the right to make choices that are within the framework of our system of rules and laws.

Back to my original question....If your son was drafted by the Pirates does the have the "freedom" to play for the Yankees?

The answer is "no"...unless he has been given the opportunity within the rule structure of Major League Baseball. If he absolutely does not want to play for the Pirates, he can opt not to sign with them...sit out a year...then hope the Yankees draft him next year.

Why do you think that Major League Baseball has instituted such restrictions? Could it be that if allowed, all players would opt to play for the Yankees (or similar high profile, wealthy teams). Do you think this would produce entertaining baseball? How long do you think the league would exist with perhaps only two or three teams that were competitive?

You know the answer to this. How then, do you not understand why it is necessary to have similar restrictions for high school ball?

Rip and TPM, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say. TPM, what you report is anecdotally correct, and Rip, perhaps I am naive (though "awfully naive" may be a stretch). I have been involved with South Florida baseball for many years and with HS players for the last 6 years. (TPM, was your son a Boca Bomber many years ago? If so, you and I have met, and I had many converstations, at various tournaments etc., with your husband during that time period). What makes me naive is that I assume people; entities; etc. are doing the right things for the right reasons until proven otherwise. Once they prove otherwise... well that is a different story. In my experience the FHSAA has proven otherwise.

Big and Alex cut right to the heart of the intent of my rambling post on this topic. Those of you who believe "recruiting" is a serious problem-- fine-- but don't let the FHSAA take the easy way out by putting the burden on kids and parents.

Rip, you write as though you have a legal background, so I will respond in kind. The scenarios I provided are not "straw men" but actual occurrences, this year. I have personal knowledge of each. I am also one of those people you note who has taken kids cases "for free" against the FHSAA. (although I don't know that there are alot of us out there as the post seems to suggest).

I took the first case because I simply could not believe an organization that purports to care about kids would ever rule against this particular kid under the particular circumstances. Lets go through some of what was involved. The FHSAA turned down the initial request. The school filed an appeal and was turned down. The parents filed an appeal, traveled to Gainesville, as they were required to do. According to them, they got about 5 minutes to present their case (they had no lawyer) and lost. This kid was not a star, he was a benchwarmer whom the coach left on the team to help him enjoy all the positive things about HS sports we have been talking about. Nevertheless, he was not expressly within the the then applicable eligibility rules and the FHSAA shot him down.

After listening to the outrageous story, I filed a motion for preliminary injunction. The FHSAA showed up with its "house" counsel, and lawyers (plural) from a large statewide firm. We won the TRO hearing and the kid was allowed to play temporarily. For the preliminary injunction hearing they also brought in a huge national/international law firm. Although we had testimony from school personnel refuting each and every contention the FHSAA made, we lost. Our only hope was an appeal.

I took the case before the court of appeals, and their first question was "how can we disturb the lower court ruling without a full and fair hearing on the merits?" My response, "I know I am stuck here without any bullets in my gun ... but if we need to wait until we go through the usual process, the season will already be over. They win by default." And so they won by default. The appellate panel we had may have been the best possible panel in the state at that time. But, under the law, they believed they had no choice and I respect them for their decision.

I don't know what the trip to Gainesville cost these parents, but I can tell you what their legal bills were. They had to pay my firm over $1,200 in costs. As for time, I wrote off, against my personal account, $17,900. I personally had to pay for those people, other than myself, (law clerks, para-legals etc) who worked on the file. Some of there amounts would be roughly tripled in today's market.

Bottom line as far as I am concerned: at the very least, a kid should always be allowed to transfer to his assigned school without threat of any retribution. Other stuff... you tell me.

quote:

Originally posted by Mavs25:
The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I thought you were going to change that screen name son!! Just think how good you guys would have been if not for the transfers out.

Fabeets,
you have a pm.

Central Florida Baseball Guy

In reading your post on this subject one would have to wonder where your true interests lie. Each one of your post are signed with Bob Pincus “Head coach”. That would automatically indicate to me that you are individual interested in promoting players, teaching the game and one who enjoys Baseball. However, after a review of your post history it would be easy for someone way to think otherwise. This thread is no different; “Accusations”.

I would have to wonder why anyone would lay claim to accusations of a minor on a public website. What is your motive? What do you hope to gain? Given your propensity for visiting college campuses seeking revocation of scholarship offers for former players departed, threatening players and now accusations, my guess is that once again it is vengeance that motivates you. People do not generally attack or accuse someone without a reason. Especially a minor. There must be a history here and I’m guessing given your history that once again a former player has left you. If you are truly interested in fairness and justice and you are sure of your facts why don’t you name the player? Instead of playing Wheel of Fortune and giving clues till we all guess who it us. Why, when a kid transfers is it automatically recruiting.

When a school receives an “F” rating kids attending that school are allowed to transfer to another school no questions asked. However, if a school athletic program is failing, lacks leadership, or is inundated with politics a kid is supposed to endure, swallow his pill and be a good boy or girl. If a parent or kid is not satisfied with a school’s academic performance they have choices. They can opt for a magnet program or move. An athlete transfers and let’s put him under the microscope. How dare a player do that!

The world is not fair. Everyone knows that. But, a small majority here thinks that fairness is not getting its share. So in the interest of fairness this is what we should do. First, all student and teachers transfers regardless of academic or athletic in nature should be brought in front of the new Teachers Evaluating Right Rules Of Recruiting (Terror) Committee. This committee would have the responsibility of the endless task of reviewing all transfers and accusations of illegal transfers. This of course would be two-fold. It would first rid our schools of all evil including all Goth athletes. Secondly it would validate year round employment for school administrators. Ridiculous?

Of course it is ridiculous! Similar, to the single minded view of restricting an athlete’s choice. Identical, to the suggestion of bringing student athletes in front of committees. Very much like an individual making accusations about student athletes. Finally, and most importantly about irresponsible and inappropriate remarks about kids on a public website.

Deleted by Bighit15

I'm not going to address your attacks because I know who you are and I feel bad for your situation.

As for the issue on this post.

Why would you be afraid to stand in front of a committee and tell them I left a "D" school for a "B" school due to academics if that is the case? Something like that looks very clear to me.

But if you are leaving due to a poor baseball program and the coach of the new school recruited you then the player should not be allowed to play. It is that simple. How can you refute that? Recruiting is not allowed in the FHSAA!

DIG EM OUT

Bob doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him but I will

I think I might know Bob a lot better than you---your accusations border on libelous---You are new poster here but say you have read Bob's posts. Thus I guess you were a lurker for quite some time so I have to wonder why you all of a sudden you post and right away out of the box are after him.

Granted Bob some times says things that stir the pot, as do I, but he is in it for the players, trust me on this.

In fact I think enough of him as a player evaluator he will be working my Binghamtnon Showcase as a player evaluator and then my Warwick Showcase as a player evaluator and coach. He will also be coaching with us in the Coastal Carolina event at the end of August

quote:

Why would you be afraid to stand in front of a committee and tell them I left a "D" school for a "B" school due to academics if that is the case? Something like that looks very clear to me.

If a player has legally transfered to school "B" by whatever means, then making some kid and his parents stand before some board, at considerable expense, to explain the transfer they were just granted by the same school board now questioning the tranfer they just granted, is completely assinine and smacks of the government funded triple redundancy that is best left in the military and the space program, and out of high school athletics.

Enforce the rules in already place. How do you know who is recruiting who anyway? The coaches move around more than the kids. I know an assistant coach who quit his team after 12 games in 2004. He went back this year. Quit the team at the end of this year for another coaching job in another county, then quit that new job after a week to take the head coach job at the old school when the head coach of one whole season quit. The new head coach claimed in the paper he is at the school for the "long haul", a completely ludicous statement at best, given the fact he has held three coaching postions in two counties, in the past two months. Yet, the kids are all screwed up.

Bob, you want to drag poor kids and parents in front of some tax payer paid buffoon board to justify a legal transfer. That just plain s u c k s.

This new rule is the beginning of the end of high school baseball in Florida. It was nearly beyond repair already.