Protocol

I am going to leave the conversation discussion for others, but if its a live ball, I would hope the ump is watching the field and not discussing the girl in the 3rd row with the batter or catcher.

As far as the implied timeout, there is no such rule, but its basic baseball protocol that at certain times the ump may not call time out but play is stopped and you don't try to take advantage of a situation.  For instance (true story).  A few years back my son played in a LL 17U game.  After the play was over, the ump bent over to sweep off the plate.  As he did that the catcher set down his glove to readjust his mask.  The 3rd base coach seeing this set his runner from 3rd to home.  Taking out the umpire who was sweeping the plate.  Now while the umpire did not specifically call time, it was implied.  Again, not technically in the rule books but not hard to figure out.  Ump sent the runner back to the base and had a few words for the coach about baseball etiquette.  Eventually the coach was EJ'd as he had a few words for the ump.

Umpires sometimes refer to what you call "implied time" as "relaxed action." It is part of the natural rhythm of the game, but it depends on players doing what they're supposed to. If the umpire brushes off the plate without calling time, which is common, runners shouldn't steal as in the situation JOES87 described, but they do need to protect themselves by staying on the base.  If the umpire is stowing spare baseballs in his bag or adjusting his mask, the pitcher shouldn't attempt to pitch.

In general, time gets requested and called more than is necessary. Respecting relaxed action helps limit it. Sometimes when catchers ask for time to go talk to the pitcher when there's no one on base, I'll ask if they think the batter will try to steal first.

During live action, my comments to batters or catchers are pretty much limited to the immediate situation. Count. Granting or not granting a request for time. Answer questions about location of previous pitch. Relevant instructions, like telling them to stay in the box. In a varsity game, I'll say, "One foot in please" if a batter has stepped out without immediately returning when he's not allowed to. In a JV or rec game, I might add a little explanation like, "unless you swing, the ball hits the ground, or the play gives you a reason."

I'm really just venting, but really like the term "relaxed action".  My kid on mound with the ball, runner on third.  New batter approaches plate and a conversation between batter and umpire starts to the point where umpire removes his mask and turns towards batter.  At that point, runner on third takes off - just about everyone is startled, including the umpire.  Runner slides in safe.  Our coach made some minor comments (told my kid and the catcher to back away from the conversation) but never got real excited and let it go.

I would have gotten thrown out whether I was technically correct or not.  We were already down but that just really deflated the team.  Told the umpire after the game I would get him the batter's telephone number if he wanted to finish his conversation that was so rudely interrupted.  

The key to relaxed action working is everyone protecting themselves. Runners stay on base. Defense makes sure the base ahead of each runner is tended. Pitcher remains alert. Then nobody should try anything, and it won't work if they do.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I'm really just venting, but really like the term "relaxed action".  My kid on mound with the ball, runner on third.  New batter approaches plate and a conversation between batter and umpire starts to the point where umpire removes his mask and turns towards batter.  At that point, runner on third takes off - just about everyone is startled, including the umpire.  Runner slides in safe.  Our coach made some minor comments (told my kid and the catcher to back away from the conversation) but never got real excited and let it go.

I would have gotten thrown out whether I was technically correct or not.  We were already down but that just really deflated the team.  Told the umpire after the game I would get him the batter's telephone number if he wanted to finish his conversation that was so rudely interrupted.  

Makes  you wonder if that's a tactic that team uses to score. Batter intentionally starts convo with ump so runner can "steal" home. Maybe I'm reading too much into the situation based on the brief discussion, but the situation sounds too convenient and a little planned. What an unsportsmanlike way to score.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I'm really just venting, but really like the term "relaxed action".  My kid on mound with the ball, runner on third.  New batter approaches plate and a conversation between batter and umpire starts to the point where umpire removes his mask and turns towards batter.  At that point, runner on third takes off - just about everyone is startled, including the umpire.  Runner slides in safe.  Our coach made some minor comments (told my kid and the catcher to back away from the conversation) but never got real excited and let it go.

I would have gotten thrown out whether I was technically correct or not.  We were already down but that just really deflated the team.  Told the umpire after the game I would get him the batter's telephone number if he wanted to finish his conversation that was so rudely interrupted.  

This makes no sense at all.   Can't imagine the ump let this run score.  Would he have called a strike if your son had thrown a pitch while he had his mask off chatting with the batter?  The umpire in this situation obviously had no idea what he was doing. 

Keep those great comments coming!  I'm starting to feel better already.  If only I could get the image of the batter smirking out of my head - he thought it was quite funny.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

This makes no sense at all.   Can't imagine the ump let this run score.  Would he have called a strike if your son had thrown a pitch while he had his mask off chatting with the batter?  The umpire in this situation obviously had no idea what he was doing. 

I was similarly confused.  What prevented the pitcher from stepping off and throwing home to the catcher? Which box was the batter in? Where was the umpire? 

The ball made its way back to the pitcher as a live ball from the previous play.  Nothing prevented a throw (one was made, just a tad late after the moment of hesitation).  The batter had not yet entered the box - had approached and I believe asked the umpire a question at which point there was one more give and take from what I remember seeing.  During that give and take, the umpire removed his mask to speak - and turned his right shoulder towards the pitcher.  

Did not exactly see, but I think the pitcher simply stepped off the rubber when the mask came off.  Lefty pitcher - and when he stepped off he was of the opinion there was "time" implied given the ongoing discussion/turned shoulder and no longer concerned himself with the runner - until the screams started.

If I am able to track down some video I might just have to post it (assuming it shows everything just like I explained - if not it will never see the light of day).

Sounds like you might have had same umpire as us at last fri. game.Runners on 1st and 2nd.1 out(no difference) Batter is in box calls time. Umpire tells batter no.Backstop is no more than 10 ft. from batters box.close enough that those standing there (myself and others) the time  and no timeout can be easily  heard.P bounces next pitch in.Both runners advance for double steal.Ump then annouces time had been called.Sends both runners back.Then calls no pitch.

I'll gladly take the minority dissention on this one.  The ball is either live or it's dead.  Period.  If the ball is live, then the defense is at risk of the offense's actions, and vice versa.

I always coach my kids to never stop playing baseball until the umpire calls, "Time."  On offense, protect yourself from things like hidden-ball gags and punish the defense for complacency -- always be ready to advance.  On defense, always be ready to make the next play and punish the offense for complacency and laziness.

I love it after ball 4 when defenses let up.  Pitchers hang their heads and pout, catchers start adjusting gear ... sometimes even vacate to go console their pitchers.  My players take advantage of these gaffes ... sometimes advancing to 2nd on the BB due to WP and the catcher's lackadaisical retrieval of the ball.

When I read statements like "runners shouldn't steal as in the situation JOES87 described, but they do need to protect themselves by staying on the base," it perfectly crystalizes why this fictitious "relaxed action" notion is ludicrous to me.  If the defense can let up and mill around while being protected from the offense's would-be aggressive actions, why wouldn't that also apply to the offense?  Why couldn't a baserunner stray off base, casually talk to the base coach, and, if the defense snapped a throw and tag on him, we just state, "Hey, just go back to your base, that was 'relaxed action' time"?  If it works one way, it's got to swing the other way ... which, to me, illustrates the ridiculous nature of some sort of hybrid of live and dead ball action.

Most of the illustrations show poor mechanics and decorum by the umpire.  An aggressive offense shouldn't be punished by this.  It's why we have rules.  We all have slightly different interpretations of "sportsmanship" and I've found that "common sense" is quite uncommon.  So, we have a set of objective rules to prevent the continuum of people's internal definitions.

If the umpire has not called for a dead ball/time out, then it's live.  If it's live, all live-ball rules are in play.  Period, end of story.  If the offense catches the defense napping, too bad.  If the offense catches the umpire napping, too bad.  That's not the offense's fault.

67L48 posted:

I'll gladly take the minority dissention on this one.  The ball is either live or it's dead.  Period.  If the ball is live, then the defense is at risk of the offense's actions, and vice versa.

I always coach my kids to never stop playing baseball until the umpire calls, "Time."  On offense, protect yourself from things like hidden-ball gags and punish the defense for complacency -- always be ready to advance.  On defense, always be ready to make the next play and punish the offense for complacency and laziness.

I love it after ball 4 when defenses let up.  Pitchers hang their heads and pout, catchers start adjusting gear ... sometimes even vacate to go console their pitchers.  My players take advantage of these gaffes ... sometimes advancing to 2nd on the BB due to WP and the catcher's lackadaisical retrieval of the ball.

When I read statements like "runners shouldn't steal as in the situation JOES87 described, but they do need to protect themselves by staying on the base," it perfectly crystalizes why this fictitious "relaxed action" notion is ludicrous to me.  If the defense can let up and mill around while being protected from the offense's would-be aggressive actions, why wouldn't that also apply to the offense?  Why couldn't a baserunner stray off base, casually talk to the base coach, and, if the defense snapped a throw and tag on him, we just state, "Hey, just go back to your base, that was 'relaxed action' time"?  If it works one way, it's got to swing the other way ... which, to me, illustrates the ridiculous nature of some sort of hybrid of live and dead ball action.

Most of the illustrations show poor mechanics and decorum by the umpire.  An aggressive offense shouldn't be punished by this.  It's why we have rules.  We all have slightly different interpretations of "sportsmanship" and I've found that "common sense" is quite uncommon.  So, we have a set of objective rules to prevent the continuum of people's internal definitions.

If the umpire has not called for a dead ball/time out, then it's live.  If it's live, all live-ball rules are in play.  Period, end of story.  If the offense catches the defense napping, too bad.  If the offense catches the umpire napping, too bad.  That's not the offense's fault.

I don't think you're grasping the concept of relaxed action. It's not a one-way street.

I hope I nor any of my players ever grasp the concept of relaxed action.  We'll have to politely agree to disagree on this one.

67L48 posted:

I hope I nor any of my players ever grasp the concept of relaxed action.  We'll have to politely agree to disagree on this one.

What's the highest level you coach?

14U is the highest.  I don't do HS.

The vast majority of mistakes my kids have made in the past 15 years is due to the assumptions they make that cause them to stop playing baseball during live action.  Assuming they're out when they're not, assuming the play is over, assuming the baserunners will stop running, and on and on and on.  Errors and poor hitting don't typically cause us to lose ... it's usually making mental mistakes based on the assumptions that cause us to stop playing.

In basketball and football, the rule is play to the whistle.  I teach that same concept and play to the "Time" call.  In egregious cases noted above where the umpire is literally cleaning the plate, that's clearly a time out situation that hasn't been articulated.  Worst case scenario is that the umpire tells the offense to go back to the base or the defense that the tag/pitch doesn't count.  In the other cases where an umpire might just be fiddling with his gear, jawing with a coach, or something else ... play on. 

Again, if the ump deems that it was an unannounced dead ball situation, he can certainly enforce that.  But it's not my or my players' jobs to figure out what's in the umps head and assume anything out there.  If my player tags a baserunner and the ump says, "No, I called time."  Big deal.  No harm.  But, if my player assumes a dead ball and doesn't apply a tag that could have gotten us an out, shame on us for not playing baseball.

If you would allow that "relaxed action" on the play you mentioned about going over to the first base coach, you would also have to implement it in the scenario of a runner stealing a bag, beating the throw (called safe), and stepping off the bag to dust off his pants before calling time.  If the middle infielder tags him, is he out or does the umpire step in and say, "The player was in a relaxed action return to your base?"  If you are a runner, you stay on the bag until you are granted time.  It's not like it is an unfair advantage; both teams have to follow suit when on offense and defense.

67L48 posted:

14U is the highest.  I don't do HS.

At V and above it's definitely more difficult to make meaningful plays in the otherwise periods of relaxed action. But I'd argue that those plays don't occur because the players are good enough to prevent them, not because of any reverence for an unwritten concept of relaxed action. 

Varsity, spring:  our pitcher is inconsistent. Gives up a big double. Ball gets back to P. SS and 2B trot in to conference. Runner leads off as they do. As soon as 3B flinches to go join, runner takes off and steals third. I thought it was brilliant baserunning and moronic defense. I didn't feel like anyone breached a code of relaxed action. 

Better players are less likely to do things like what our D did.  I agree with that. It's harder to exploit mental lapses when those lapses happen less frequently and when the players recover more quickly.

But we're describing two different things. Lull in action because further play can't happen (risks too high, or unfruitful) versus lull in action because further play shouldn't happen (observing some unwritten policy). 

The thread started with examples of offense taking bases when it should allegedly have been observing some sort of relaxed action policy. I'll never be on board with that. 

Great YouTube video of Todd Helton playing hidden ball on a throw over to 1B. Again, looks like boneheaded baserunning to me, not some etiquette violation by Helton. Presumably after runner got back safely on the 1-3 throw, we should have entered the relaxed action period to allow the runner to get up and dust off. Someone forgot to tell Helton. 

There's no "code" of relaxed action.

Once players achieve a certain level of competence, good habits and alertness, they shouldn't be vulnerable to the surprise tactics that work in rec  ball.  

"Relaxed action" describes moments of tacitly acknowledged equilibrium when players guard against surprise tactics without apparent effort and their opponents don't attempt silly stuff because they know it won't work.

If players do become inattentive or their skills aren't sufficient deterence, their opponents are welcome to exploit their vulnerabilities. 

Swampboy posted:

There's no "code" of relaxed action.

Once players achieve a certain level of competence, good habits and alertness, they shouldn't be vulnerable to the surprise tactics that work in rec  ball.  

"Relaxed action" describes moments of tacitly acknowledged equilibrium when players guard against surprise tactics without apparent effort and their opponents don't attempt silly stuff because they know it won't work.

If players do become inattentive or their skills aren't sufficient deterence, their opponents are welcome to exploit their vulnerabilities. 

I would disagree somewhat with there not being a code. It comes into play sparingly, but it exists. For example, in college (and even some HS ball, depending) a coach coming out to visit after a walk--we grant time even if BR is still making his way to first and even if that coach doesn't request it. Without that implicit idea, we'd be telling him to stay off the field until the play has stopped and he has asked for and received time (and there has been more than one umpire that has done this, to the detriment of their early careers at that level.) Everyone knows the play is over, even though there are still obligations of some of the participants.

Matt, we may not disagree too much in practice. I nod at the coach when he makes eye contact to request time for the visit after the walk. Then I appease my inner-OOO by waiting for the batter to touch first before throwing my hands up. 

Matt13 posted:

I would disagree somewhat with there not being a code. It comes into play sparingly, but it exists. For example, in college (and even some HS ball, depending) a coach coming out to visit after a walk--we grant time even if BR is still making his way to first and even if that coach doesn't request it. Without that implicit idea, we'd be telling him to stay off the field until the play has stopped and he has asked for and received time (and there has been more than one umpire that has done this, to the detriment of their early careers at that level.) Everyone knows the play is over, even though there are still obligations of some of the participants.

And, conversely, at some level you should definitely wait or some coach will complain that you are ruining some "play."  So, calling time "early" can be detrimental to that umpire's career.

And, the call of time can be "loud and strong" or just raising a hand briefly.  And, while both are used at all levels, the frequency of the latter increases with the level.

Those differences account for some of the disconnect in this thread.

Swampboy posted:

Matt, we may not disagree too much in practice. I nod at the coach when he makes eye contact to request time for the visit after the walk. Then I appease my inner-OOO by waiting for the batter to touch first before throwing my hands up. 

I would NOT do this -- what if something does happen in that interval?  Once coach / team thinks there is time and one thinks there isn't.  Pick a road and go with it.

Noumpere--

Help me understand the risk. We're talking about situations in which the catcher has already returned the ball to the pitcher, who is standing on the mound waiting for the coach while the batter-runner and preceding runners jog to next bases. 

The defense can't try to nab the b-r for carelessly over-running the bag because I call time the moment his foot touches the bag. 

I suppose one of the runners could try to advance more than one base, but I've never seen anyone above rec ball try it.

And I suppose a runner not forced could try to steal, but I've never seen a delayed steal delayed past the moment the catcher releases the ball back to the pitcher.

And in either case, I hope I'd be alert enough to notice a runner sprinting and would gesture the coach to hold up until the excitement dies down. 

It seems like a textbook example of relaxed action: ball is live but no one can take advantage of the situation.

What am I missing? (I'm not arguing--I really am asking)

It's kind of like the umpire who holds up a hand so the pitcher won't pitch, but thinks that he is keeping the ball live for a pick-off or something.  You can't have this "intermediate state".  So either grant the time out before the runner reaches the base (recommended at HS and above) or tell the coach / catcher to wait (recommended, I guess, at 12U local league and below).  (In between, use your judgment based on what others do, the actual level of play, etc.)

It's kind of like the umpire who holds up a hand so the pitcher won't pitch, but thinks that he is keeping the ball live for a pick-off or something.

NOUMPERE - Can you explain how an ump should "control" the pitcher?  I am not an ump but always assumed that when an ump was holding up the pitcher, that the ball was in fact live.  A good scenario might be when the batter is "digging in" and the ump is sort of backed away from the plate.  Batter may be doing the little "time" gesture with their back hand, but I never assumed that the batter was always automatically granted "time" when doing so.  I guess I thought of it as relaxed action where the ump gave a sign to proceed so as to preclude a fast pitch scenario.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

It's kind of like the umpire who holds up a hand so the pitcher won't pitch, but thinks that he is keeping the ball live for a pick-off or something.

NOUMPERE - Can you explain how an ump should "control" the pitcher?  I am not an ump but always assumed that when an ump was holding up the pitcher, that the ball was in fact live.  A good scenario might be when the batter is "digging in" and the ump is sort of backed away from the plate.  Batter may be doing the little "time" gesture with their back hand, but I never assumed that the batter was always automatically granted "time" when doing so.  I guess I thought of it as relaxed action where the ump gave a sign to proceed so as to preclude a fast pitch scenario.

An umpire holding his hand up makes it a dead ball. 

I generally don't use it unless I have to--I leave the ball live. If the batter or someone else isn't ready, and the pitcher looks as he's about to pitch, then I'll call time. There's no reason to put a hand up when the batter's digging in and the pitcher is still getting signs or adjusting himself or whatever.